Do you know a pilot killed in a fatal accident?

[201er]

 Since it was brought up, I'll ask our community here on this topic.

39 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

This is very interesting and exactly on topic of what I was saying.  The problem is to making something empirical out of it, would take a controlled experiment.  I don't know if those people were telling us if they knew someone who knew someone who died.  Or if actually they also were saying they knew someone who knew someone who knew someone since psychologically this seems the same.

Do you personally know a pilot killed in a fatal airplane accident?

Do you know someone who personally knew a pilot killed in a fatal airplane accident?

 

To qualify "personally know," let's say it has to be at least the following:

·Know the pilot's full name

·You spent at least 1 hour face to face

 

"Knowing someone who personally knew" extends the same where the person you know (whose name you know and met for over an hour) knows the pilot's full name and has spent more than 1 hour face to face.

 

In other words, sharing lunch can be considered personally knowing whereas having seen the guy around the airport might not. However, seeing the guy around the airport but knowing his friends personally would extend to the knowing someone who personally knew.

 

Reading about accidents in the news or on Mooneyspace does not count unless you personally know the person it is about or personally know the person bringing it up that personally knew the person involved.

 

I kind of dread this poll and probably know the outcome. But, maybe the questions was not clearly asked in the past and this might make the answer a bit different. If you know a lot of people or you've been around aviation a long enough time but don't know any, please share.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by 201er

[aviatoreb]

I answered yes to the second two questions.  I knew someone personally who died in an airplane.  But then I also have friends who knew him, so that makes the second question automatic and literally true.  But I do not know any further pilots who died that were not known to me but were known to my acquantences.

I answered yes to the third question because I am still sad about Patrick.  I never met Patrick but I interacted with him here, and surely that counts. RIP Patrick.

[201er]

You can separate questions 2 from 1/3 if it is about the same person.

For example, I personally knew Patrick. We met a bunch of times and flew together in each other's airplanes.

Also, one of my flight instructor's flight instructor fatally crashed a skyhawk full of passengers just prior to signing my instructor for his checkride. This is why my instructor has a thing about not delaying sign offs.

These things really hit close to home. I am getting teary eyed and can't think about it too much more.

[carusoam]

I barely knew Patrick, but his infectious love of Mooney aviation was all it took to make him memorable... I met Patrick by telephone while I was having difficulty with phone calls...  

Patrick was working closely with 201er organizing a big NJ Mooney fly-in...

Patrick’s lasting memory is a reminder to know your DA before departure... and when close, use every foot of runway available...

 

@patrickf’s handy method of doing T/O calculations is a great solution for the traditional paper / calculation challenges...

 

So... as difficult of a topic it is to cover... there are lessons that are best to be known... to better not repeat...

The biggest lesson to be gained from knowing MSers... at least two highly flight-educated Mooney pilots have miscalculated the amount of runway and climb capability of their planes... resulting in the tangling with trees...

 

The really cool part... As terrible as aviation accidents are... they are a very small percentage of the rest of real life’s challenges...

Don’t give up flying a Mooney because it is perceived as dangerous... training, tools, and recency are a really good defense.

For really dangerous activities... eating French fries, rice, breads and drinking a big soda, while sitting on a sofa for hours at a time.... can be really hazardous for some...  

Fly On, Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Parker_Woodruff]

Yes, Yes, No.

1. The CFI who signed off my complex endorsement died due to massive bird strike on approach to his grass runway at his house.
2. a)2010/2011 timeframe...My friend's dad getting back into flying at age 80 after a long hiatus.  I wasn't able to offer insurance.  Avemco did.  I'm afraid a Maule was too much for him getting started again.  There are certain calls you never forget on the drive home from work...
   b)My friend's brother in-law-in a crop spraying accident.
3. No.  But would have been yes if you consider someone I'd chatted with on the phone for a decent amount of time from several years ago when I worked elsewhere.

[MooneyMitch]

21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For really dangerous activities... eating French fries, rice, breads and drinking a big soda, while sitting on a sofa for hours at a time.... can be really hazardous for some

Can you say football games this weekend?

[MooneyMitch]

Patrick was a tender, loving  and an oh so kind person.  His memory will live on in my mind as a very special person I had the fortunate experience of meeting.

We stored him a few nights while he was picking up his Mooney from Artcraft.  Lots of fun! 

[carusoam]

Sometimes you will hear somebody say... ‘it wasn’t his time to go...’

I was hassling a work friend about his smoking... it was killing him slowly...  he reminded/gave me... ‘we all have to die from something...’

To find memories of Patrick... @pjsny78.... (RIP)

Best regards,

-a-

[Comet]

This is another statistical exercise.  When you start flying, you only know a few pilots (maybe a few thousand hours total), so the likelihood of 1 is low.  After you’ve been around awhile the pilots you know have hundreds of thousands of hours (maybe millions for professional pilots).  Number 2 should always be 100%; most (if not all) active CFIs s know someone.  I’ve had CFIs who have discussed it as a reminder that what we do is dangerous.  One day we will all take our last flight; our job as pilots is to work hard to make sue it also isn’t our last day on earth!

[DonMuncy]

I only met Patrick in person one time, but had quite a few communications. He was really one of a kind, and his death hit me harder than I would have expected. 

[thomas1142]

May I ask what the purpose of this poll is? I find it hard to believe their is a lesson anywhere in the questions asked.

[Ron McBride]

My primary instructor was killed, teaching multi engine, I think in a twinkle, friend of my dad was in the back of a beech 18, night fir to low hit a hill. And then I local pilot flying a rough home built, looks like he ran out of gas.  He was older and seemed unsafe, I always avoided being in the air with him. 
 

 

[aviatoreb]

The DPE who signed off on my PPL a decade and a half ago was the person whom I know, who died in a plane crash.  He was a super experience, 15000 hr pilot, a very thoughtful CFI and gave good wisdom that I still have rolling in my head when I make certain decisions.  He did something really dumb that particular day that he himself would say was really dumb, scud running through the mountains here to stay low below icing clouds, in a route he must have known very very well, but was a little off track that day and hit a mountain.  With another person he had along building hours.  In our region community we were all shocked.  It sucked the oxygen out of the room.  Given his high hours and CFI-ATP-DPE roles, and the unusual for him bad decision making, his crash was featured about 10 years ago in one of those case studies in the AOPA.  KMAL has never been the same since Dan isn't there anymore.

I never met Patrick but he reached out to many of us and I had numerous emails with him.  Many many.  I was very sad devastated when we lost him.

There was also Houman whom I did have lunch, with and Yves in Ottawa.  Houman was new to his airplane, a rocket, which was a bit over his head. And how that crash unfolded had several characteristics of a lot of plane and decision making that were recounted on these pages.  That was a shock too.  His son young teen was with him, and thankfully he survived largely unscathed, physically.

I also know someone in the military who died in a helicopter accident, in a training mission, but that is not GA and a different story.

I know several other people we have lost in other kinds of motor vehicles, cars, motorcycles, snowmobiles.  Its really tragic if we run through it all in our memories, but then everyone of these people, who I had a connection with, I remember that too.

[carusoam]

Unfortunately there are a few more...

Two, we don’t know the original causes of the accident... yet.

But keeping with the tradition of discussing them...

We can honor @Canopyman for reminding us about engine outs and landing straight ahead... as one of The best options...

The other two were long bodies... One an engine out at altitude ending with an unfortunate landing... the other a stall after T/O...

Don’t forget... The poor lost soul, who’s family joined MS looking for their cousin who went down without a trace... in the Canadian out-back prior to the snowy season... @Stacy ’s cousin... up in Revelstoke... the plane was found months later, not all that far from a road...

 

1) Turning back can lead to a stall problem...

2) selecting a road for a landing can be full of hazards...

3) We don’t have any info regarding the cause of the stall on T/O... So... we can use it is a reminder to push hard to get light in the seat... to avoid the stall...

4) ADSB out, ELTs, Spots... All methods of sending out a signal are good... cell phones, not so much.

We have had some really good discussions with people that have survived similar misfortune... from engine out, to landing in trees, and a departure stall with trees.... even a landing in the middle of nowhere and a video of a helicopter bringing the Mooney home...

One thing for sure... fly all the way to the crash site, keep the trees on the pilot side.... hit the ground with as little speed as possible...

The optimum ELT has a GPS signal sent with it...

How do you want to be remembered..?

I’m thinking being old and crusty would make a great memory...    

Best regards,

-a-

[Immelman]

To #1, yes a few times over.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Immelman

[MooneyMitch]

Y’all fly safe please.  

You too, Mitchell....... mainly cause I don’t want you all talking about me, and what I did wrong should I screw up and depart our MS airspace. 

[jlunseth]

On 1/9/2021 at 9:57 AM, aviatoreb said:

I answered yes to the second two questions.  I knew someone personally who died in an airplane.  But then I also have friends who knew him, so that makes the second question automatic and literally true.  But I do not know any further pilots who died that were not known to me but were known to my acquaintances.

I answered yes to the third question because I am still sad about Patrick.  I never met Patrick but I interacted with him here, and surely that counts. RIP Patrick.

I feel the same way. 

But I personally knew two others, one was a fixed wing and balloon pilot of note who died in a balloon accident, the other in a fixed wing. The first was the fellow who got me into flying to begin with, long time ago.

From those I learned the most important rule of flying, it comes even before "always fly the plane." The rule is "do your own shit." It means that no matter how busy, important, entitled, or rich you are, if you are going to pilot an aircraft, you care for it yourself, you don't rely on others to do anything related to the safety of the craft, ever. You will have to pardon the language, in this case it is meant for emphasis.

Amend that. My number is three. The third was a lifelong bush pilot, former Delta captain with umpteen thousand hours who died checking a guy out in his new Kodiak. I flew with him personally several times, one of the best pilots I have ever flown with. 

It occurred to me that, between the three guys I knew, they had over 20,000 hours, none were low-time pilots.

[Seymour]

3 hours ago, Ron McBride said:

My primary instructor was killed, teaching multi engine

Ditto.   My logbook shows I didn't take my next lesson until a year later.

 

 

[donkaye, MCFI]

It's sad and depressing as I think of some of the people I have known who didn't respect the weather and it did them in.  Two were former Instrument students who got their ratings with me.  Both accidents occurred many years after the training.  Both were aeronautical decision making judgment errors, and both fell under the categories I discussed with each of these  individuals.  After flying with someone for 40 hours of more in getting that rating, as an instructor, you have a pretty good idea of a person's personality.  So, one of the last things I extensively go over with a person before sending them to take the test are the 5 hazardous attitudes.  I'll tell them I'm not judging them (and I'm not), but we go over all of them and I put special emphasis on the ones I think may apply to their personality.  Many times people will agree, and sometimes they don't.

The first one has been written about extensively.  It was the Cirrus that took off from Reno one dark and later stormy night on a flight back to Oakland.  The plane was not turbocharged, but did have inadvertent TKS.  The plane picked up ice and went down by Donner Lake.  The pilot pulled the chute way beyond the airspeed permitted for pulling the chute.  His last words, casually said, were, "I'm picking up ice and I'm going down."  His main issue was Resignation, so when he let things get bad, he let it happen to him.

The second one was equally troubling and occurred a number of years after the training.  This one involved a well known attorney who was doing a night flight to his second home at Pine Mountain Lake.  He wasn't instrument current, but that wouldn't have made a difference to the outcome because the field was way below minimums, like it was totally fogged in.  He tried to get in VFR--unsuccessfully.  He was the nicest person you could ever meet.  You would never know about his anti-authority, invulnerability attitude.  We had discussed it.  It cost him and his soon to be wife their lives.

Then there was the accident that occurred over the Tehachapis in a thunderstorm that took the wings off of a Rocket a few days after I had met and talked with the pilot at a high altitude seminar in Sacramento organized by my good friend Dr. Bob Achtel.  (I remember that seminar particularly well because that was and to this date the lowest IFR  landing I have made.  Adam Fineberg was in the right seat going to the seminar with me.  At 200 feet we saw the red approach lights that allowed us to go down to 100 feet where I saw the runway threshold and landed.  You couldn't see the top of the Control Tower).  Anyway, I digress.  He was a software engineer who just had to get to LA.  I remember the day.  The weather was just terrible.  He left a wife and 2 month old baby.

And then there was the accident of the Acclaim Ultra near Deer Valley 1½ years ago.  Several days earlier Mark had flown me over to Minden to pick up my plane after the GFC 500 installation.

OK, that's enough.

[Nick Pilotte]

Yes, Yes, No.  but I look at this statistic for me with many different views.  Replace airplanes with cars, boats, motorcycles, cancer, and the results don’t change much.
I’ve written this before but my wife’s dad died when she was 18 months old in a semi crash.  Her mom was pregnant with my brother in law. 4 years later, she remarried and had two more sons, my now brothers in law as well.  When my wife was 16, he died in a stall spin while crop dusting.  And I know another family friend to survive two plane crashes, both crop dusting, one a brake failure on landing and resulting ground loop, and a takeoff that never left ground effect on a high DA day. 
 

It’s surprising my wife lets me do anything, really. 

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, thomas1142 said:

May I ask what the purpose of this poll is? I find it hard to believe their is a lesson anywhere in the questions asked.

There probably isn't.

[flyboy0681]

I personally knew two people, one who stalled his Citabria on takeoff from Palo Alto back in the 1970's. The other was my best friend, who died in a spectacular midair within the Teterboro airspace on November 10, 1985. That was a complete shock to my system as I spoke to him just a few hours before his departure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Teterboro_collision

 

[201er]

I know that some people like @mike_elliotthave experienced this on a personal level like nobody else. We honor all the pilots who lost their lives and sympathize with anyone who has felt their loss. We appreciate the tremendous efforts to reduce accidents being done by groups like FAA Safety, Air Safety Institute, Wings, Mooney Summit, Mooneyspace, and others. I sincerely wish that the Bill Gilliland Foundation would never need to send another check again, but until fatal accidents can be entirely prevented (without eliminating aviation), we really appreciate you being there for pilots and their families. Thank you.

[jlunseth]

20 hours ago, thomas1142 said:

May I ask what the purpose of this poll is? I find it hard to believe their is a lesson anywhere in the questions asked.

Well, there is. On the basis of fatalities or or accidents per hours of operation, cars are safer, it is not even a contest. GA ranks somewhere around motorcycles. The major airlines, on the other hand, now go years without a major accident. Their equipment is better designed to meet aviation's worst conditions, their pilots train constantly, including worst case scenarios in simulators, and they have the advantage of multiple crew, things that are hard for us to match. But statistically it is the GA pilot who screws up - on the order of 70% of all accidents - and that is the major reason why we rank with motorcycles. There is no reason for a pilot who does not have warm wings, the ability to land on autopilot in zero-zero, and the ability to fly at 42k, to take risks the equipment is unable to handle. It is very healthy for GA pilots to have a fear of screwing up. 

[kortopates]

Yes to all three with a few Mooney friends lost. They all hit you hard. The first loss of a pair of dear friends hit me the hardest by far. But just like virtually every accident report you've read, not one of them should have ever happened. All were easily preventable and all make you sad. Some make you angry at the senselessness of them, but there also wasn't a single one that I didn't learn something from, most quite a bit. So ever since the first lost, I've become a student of accident reports and the human factors involved for whatever I can learn to reduce my chances of adding to them.  

I'll add an important (to me) comment inspired by the often dismissive pilot I hear from imply something to effect of "that could never happen to me, I wouldn't have done something so stupid like flying that day or this or that ....". Not one of the the pilots I knew that perished was stupid, in fact they were all quite smart. One was one of the smartest people I knew and world renowned in his field. He even flew his Mooney, a J model,  over the pond before the days of GPS (I was impressed!). Personally, I think we all have to be aware that as human beings we can get so caught up in multi-tasking that we can become overly focused on some details while blinded to another emerging threat and fail to correct for it in time.  There are many things we can do to combat this but first we have to realize we're vulnerable and we need to be always double checking our work and our priorities in an effort to catch our mistakes before they're serious.  

Edited January 11, 2021 by kortopates