Oil Change at Annual

[RobertGary1]

I never change oil at annual. Why would you change it if it was recently done?

 

-Robert 

[EricJ]

55 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I'll find out when I tear it down.

Holler if you want a second set of hands/eyes around.   Would be fun to do.   

[kortopates]

What happened to all the owners that wanted their annual inspection to be compliant with Mooney's 100 hr checklist?

See items 1, 2 & 3 under lubrication. Mooney 100_Hour_Annual2007.pdf

Although the Mooney 100 hr checklist is not a legal requirement for an annual, as the IA can use any checklist they want, its required to cover the items in 14 CFR Part 43 Appendix D and section(d) (3) Internal engine - for cylinder compression and for metal particles of foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs.

Although true it does not say an oil change is required  -- but is that really an excuse not to inspect the screens and filters ????? 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

46 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Holler if you want a second set of hands/eyes around.   Would be fun to do.   

I'm pulling the engine after work today. I have the bafflinging and most of the turbo system off. Should be able to get it off today unless I start suffering from heat stroke!

You are welcome to come over. Not sure what I'll do after that, but I'll let you know. I need to find a tire to drop the engine on.

[Guest]

I knew that I logged on the a Mooney owners forum when I read that people don’t change their oil with annuals and save less used oil for re-use later.

Engines worth tens of thousands, oil worth $100, CB’s indeed!

Clarence

[OR75]

The Annual Inspection is just that ... an Inspection. It does not call for preventative maintenance, maintenance or repairs. 
But with cowling open and need to check filters, it is best to delay or advance changing the oil to time it with the annual. The IA should ask what oil and what filter you use. 

[Yetti]

9 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

So this is interesting.  The code says that you must check for foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs.  Well, to check either one of these the oil needs to be drained, correct?  So an oil change is essentially required at every annual in order to comply with this, correct or not?

Technically no.  The filter and screen are up high.  Just need to replace the oil that was in the filter that did not drain out, but no very smart way to do things.

[Guest]

The oil suction screen on most Lycoming engines as used in Mooney airframes is low on the engine, removing it will drain the oil sump.  The 360 series Continental engines used in K model Mooney airframes is also on the accessory section, removing it will drain the oil sump.  Big bore Continental engine have the suction screen on the inside of the oil sump.

Clarence

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I knew that I logged on the a Mooney owners forum when I read that people don’t change their oil with annuals and save less used oil for re-use later.

Engines worth tens of thousands, oil worth $100, CB’s indeed!

Clarence

You must have missed the pictures some have posted of various apparatus designed to drain every last drop from oil bottles. 

[Guest]

Just now, PT20J said:

You must have missed the pictures some have posted of various apparatus designed to drain every last drop from oil bottles. 

I’m just waiting for a Mooney owner to figure out how to turn the plastic bottle back into oil for additional savings.

Clarence

[Hank]

With my second oil change due, I thought my first annual would include it. (Oil & fikter every 100 hours, my IA had shiwn me how to change the oil.) Nope! I realized it almost 15 hours later . . . Changed it in a hurry!

Now twelve years and many oil changes later, last year's New genius IA insisted on checking the oil screen, which was probably necessary when my engine was built without an oil filter. So seven quarts of 5-hour oil came out, the plug was removed, and the huge amounts of "stuff" built up behind it, since it still had the rebuilder's tag on it from 2003, turned into figments of his imagination . . . Then he didn't have multigrade oil to refill it with, just 100W at a much higher price to me per quart than I had paid to buy the oil he threw away. In the grand scheme of that annual, it was a tiny, tiny waste but typical of his thinking and operating. (No, I don't have travel boards, but I can replace the ball joints in all of your control surface connecting rods and set them back correctly! And it doesn't matter that you told me not to do it.--But according to Joey Cole, I was lucky to take off, since the elevator only moved to 15° nose up instead of 20° . . . .)

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m just waiting for a Mooney owner to figure out how to turn the plastic bottle back into oil for additional savings.

Clarence

Some polymers are really easy to unzip / depolymerize.... 

Oil bottles/HDPE can be recycled into many things without much additional effort.. like Trex fake wood products... Often used for decking outdoors... Intense washing is required to eliminate the oil on the surface...

Soda bottles/PET is even easier to blend and reuse... lots of laundry detergent scoops get formed from this stuff...

From a chemistry point of view.... PET can be unzipped back to its original chemicals, filtered, and start anew...

Where a lot of this stuff has good use...  Burning, and turning into heat... for electric generation... on the East coast... with no neighbors...   The heat energy in plastics is very similar to oil... but getting it to burn cleanly is a bit more challenging....

 

We have a few plastics people and chemists around MS... 
 

PP thoughts only, not a chemist...

Best regards,

-a-

[Greg Ellis]

10 hours ago, Yetti said:

Technically no.  The filter and screen are up high.  Just need to replace the oil that was in the filter that did not drain out, but no very smart way to do things.

The screen on my 0-360-A1D is very low and removal would cause the oil to drain out.  The filter is up high though and could be removed without oil removal but not the screen.

[Greg Ellis]

8 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m just waiting for a Mooney owner to figure out how to turn the plastic bottle back into oil for additional savings.

Clarence

Just for grins, I took the so called empty quart bottles and put a funnel in one of the empty ones and over time allowed each of the other empty quart bottles to drain into a single bottle.  After 3 or 4  oil changes, I filled up a quart bottle.  Now that should make me a member of the CB club. 

[Guest]

23 hours ago, Hank said:

With my second oil change due, I thought my first annual would include it. (Oil & fikter every 100 hours, my IA had shiwn me how to change the oil.) Nope! I realized it almost 15 hours later . . . Changed it in a hurry!

Now twelve years and many oil changes later, last year's New genius IA insisted on checking the oil screen, which was probably necessary when my engine was built without an oil filter. So seven quarts of 5-hour oil came out, the plug was removed, and the huge amounts of "stuff" built up behind it, since it still had the rebuilder's tag on it from 2003, turned into figments of his imagination . . . Then he didn't have multigrade oil to refill it with, just 100W at a much higher price to me per quart than I had paid to buy the oil he threw away. In the grand scheme of that annual, it was a tiny, tiny waste but typical of his thinking and operating. (No, I don't have travel boards, but I can replace the ball joints in all of your control surface connecting rods and set them back correctly! And it doesn't matter that you told me not to do it.--But according to Joey Cole, I was lucky to take off, since the elevator only moved to 15° nose up instead of 20° . . . .)

I worked on a Piper Lance that hadn’t had the suction screen removed in some time, the engine had a spin on oil filter.  The owner was complaining of erratic oil pressure readings.  We dropped the oil and pulled the suction screen, to find it almost completely blocked with carbon chunks.

The engine had a history of burning lots of oil and had a number of cylinder changes along the way.  My theory was that excessive blow by was the cause of the carbon build up in the suction screen.  
 

A healthy engine may not need the suction screen cleaned at every oil change, but at Annual inspections or at 100 hour intervals would be prudent.

Clarence

Edited August 26, 2020 by M20Doc

[PT20J]

Clarence makes a good point.

It is worth noting that the Mooney 50-hour/100-hour/Annual Maintenance Inspection Guide lists removing and inspecting the suction screen, and Lycoming SB480F lists removing and inspecting the suction screen at every oil change. That is certainly the safest thing to do.

However, I think that may be overkill on a healthy engine, and I tend not to want to mess with stuff if I don't need to. In my case, I have a newly factory rebuilt engine. I inspected it at about 100 hours and plan to inspect it again at 500. However, if I had any indications of oil pressure abnormalities, it's the first thing I would check. If I had an older engine with high oil consumption, I would probably look at it every annual.

Skip

[Seth]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:20 AM, Greg Ellis said:

So this is interesting.  The code says that you must check for foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs.  Well, to check either one of these the oil needs to be drained, correct?  So an oil change is essentially required at every annual in order to comply with this, correct or not?

Technically they can drain the oil and put it back in. But if you are paying for the labor anyway, put in new oil. 
-Seth

[Seth]

And for what it’s worth I change my oil every annual.

I also change my oil every 25-35 hours. Some may feel that’s too soon but as noted, oil is way less expensive than the engine!

 

-Seth 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Seth

[MikeOH]

23 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’m just waiting for a Mooney owner to figure out how to turn the plastic bottle back into oil for additional savings.

Clarence

Nah, just go in with some buddies and buy your oil in 55 gallon barrels and reuse the bottles

[PT20J]

5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Nah, just go in with some buddies and buy your oil in 55 gallon barrels and reuse the bottles

There’s not enough of a price break to be worth the hassle. The museum buys 55 gal drums of 120 weight not because of the price so much but because the radials use so much of it. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Nah, just go in with some buddies and buy your oil in 55 gallon barrels and reuse the bottles

I already have 4 drums on hand and try to avoid plastic bottles.

Clarence

[MikeOH]

44 minutes ago, PT20J said:

There’s not enough of a price break to be worth the hassle. The museum buys 55 gal drums of 120 weight not because of the price so much but because the radials use so much of it. 

• It was an attempt at humor...your missing that is why I don't quit my day job

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

• It was an attempt at humor...your missing that is why I don't quit my day job

My wife says I’m to literal.  I guess I’ve just wrestled those barrels up onto the stand one too many times. 

[chrisk]

On 8/24/2020 at 10:33 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

And to those who don't think there is value in checking the suction screen, myself included, until now. I was doing my last annual ever and found metal in the section screen. 

I'm pulling the engine 

You and I are in the same boat.  --Why is the screen hanging up when unscrewing it?  Hey that looks like two parts of a cotter pin.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I already have 4 drums on hand and try to avoid plastic bottles.

Clarence

OK, I'll bite: How do you get it from the drum to the engine?

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