Gear Up Landings

[skydvrboy]

6 hours ago, Schllc said:

Maybe it’s part of how one was trained from the beginning, I always knew I was going to have a plane with retractable gear so gumps started in some of my first lessons leading to ppl. 

My instructor made me repeat "gear down and locked" on every GUMPS check.  He said you never know, you may find yourself flying a retract someday.  I played along thinking, no way I'll ever end up in one of those expensive high performance planes.  Why, the increased insurance and maintenance cost would eat up nearly my entire flying budget.  Then I found Mooney! 

[skydvrboy]

26 minutes ago, epsalant said:

I'm curious, in the pattern how many accidents have people heard of from forgetting GMPS-almost all I have heard of are from U (UNDERCARRIAGE). Although, to be fair, the accidents generally do not lead to injury just financial insult....

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I do know someone who lost their life to a carb ice event in a Cessna, so I'd say carb heat would be important if applicable.  I learned BCGUMPS, which added belts and carb heat.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

Ibra, in the US we are all trained to do GUMPS.  I do LCB GUMPS.  I learned it in Private Pilot lessons and it is so endemic my aural alert system came pre-programmed to say “GUMPS Check” at a certain altitude agl (I think it is 500 feet). We drill it until we know it in our sleep and beyond, at least that is what I do.

I understand if that is was always the case on initial training in the US, say on a C172 then it will make Mooney transition easier and life after far better it is hard to get "Gear to pop out", especially if one flies other types or varied missions or doing transition training

So one needs additional safety nets, the more is the better: drop gear early irrespective of checklist, pattern pre-landing checks, call GUMPS on final, listen to horn, add few visual stickers... even if all of that failed at least tried my best

The hard bit is to catch it under distraction (millennial generation problems: good at multi-tasking but bad in long-term memory under stress ), so I stick to 3 most important items in a Mooney: speed, fuel and gear IMO, so I tend to check these irrespective of any "mechanical reminder" , still I got 1 warning in each so far but not all 3 at once !

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Ibra said:

Yes, I agree the hard bit is to keep that logic going when you "unfold" the legs to a 2nm final straight line or any "non-standard flight shape" for that matter

It is and it isn't. If 90% of your time is spend flying a standard pattern at a nontowered airport, sure, it takes a bit extra thought to unfold it. OTOH, be based at an airport where a base entry is as common as a 45-to-downwind and it it just evolves.

In my case, I don't use it.  But that doesn't mean others do't do it naturally. If it works it works. It's not what I do (mine is designed to be independent of the pattern) , but as I said, I don't force my method on anyone else. To the contrary, if someone has a method which works (defined as reasonable and consistent), I don't want to. The reason is part of my First Commandment of Flight Instruction — Thou shalt not force a pilot to change a working technique just because you like another better. 

In the case of the gear, the closest I have ever come to a gear up landing was about 14 years ago, if I have my dates right. It was about 4 months after I was checked out in a Comanche.  I was using the SOP I had been using for at least 10 years. I got a chance to ride with an airline pilot in his Comanche. It was a chance to learn more about the airplane and its handling. Anyway, he used a gear-down method I thought looked really good , so I decided to adopt it. Two flights later, a simple "straight to the numbers" and I forgot the gear. Fortunately, the gear horn woke me up - in more ways than one!

[EricJ]

The belly on my airplane is so greasy I figure if I ever do land gear up I'll just slide off the end of the runway.

[RobertGary1]

On 2/18/2020 at 10:39 AM, steingar said:

Does that mean they don't let Skyhawks land in any of these places?

I"ve never seen one but I suppose if it was willing to circle for a long time they'd eventually work one in.

-Robert

[jlunseth]

4 hours ago, Ibra said:

The hard bit is to catch it under distraction (millennial generation problems: good at multi-tasking but bad in long-term memory under stress ), so I stick to 3 most important items in a Mooney: speed, fuel and gear IMO, so I tend to check these irrespective of any "mechanical reminder" , still I got 1 warning in each so far but not all 3 at once !

Yes, well, I have no excuses and I also came close once.  I was practicing Power off 180’s for my Commercial certificate.  The way it is taught, gear goes down on downwind but no flaps, engine to idle, you can add flaps or anything else during the 180 to land, but if you add something you can’t take it back.  I was practicing at a rural airfield, no tower.  On downwind I noticed another Mooney on the taxiway, looked like an F, first taxiing toward the approach end of the runway, then reversed course and started for the departure end, and then reversed course again.  I was announcing, he obviously was listening and trying to figure out what I was doing, but he was not talking nor did he answer back when I asked what he was going to do.  On the approach end, in the grass just off the runway, two or three people had an ultralight that they were assembling and it looked like they were ready to take off, so another possible NORDO in the pattern.  I was watching all this intently, trying to figure out who was going to do what.  At about 50’ from the deck on short final I noticed my speed was not managing, which lead me to check the gear, which was not down.  I had gotten distracted and not done it.  I did a go around.  So I instituted a new safety rule.  If I was going to practice Power off 180’s, it could not be at an airport with anything going on.  Just go somewhere else, we have lots of little airports here. So thankfully, I am still in the “not yet” category.

[steingar]

15 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I"ve never seen one but I suppose if it was willing to circle for a long time they'd eventually work one in.

-Robert

I know guys who have landed Skyhawks at several big Bravos.  They do it.

[bradp]

My plane was GU’d by a previous owner at the Mooney homecoming some 14 years ago.  He said it was a distracting environment IIRC. 

[epsalant]

My plane was GU’d by a previous owner at the Mooney homecoming some 14 years ago.  He said it was a distracting environment IIRC. 

Exactly. Getting back to the main topic, how do we prevent gear-ups from happening?

When I flew into a busy bravo (KBOS) in my M20J I what is given vectors to what I thought was upwind. I was pretty high and pretty fast when the controller cleared me straight to the numbers. Following the clearance he requested I maintain 165 knots for a big jet behind me. The runway was something like 10,000 ft long so it seemed doable. I replied "Rodger.". The correct answer, which I realized after landing, was "Unable." I landed just fine and was thanked by the tower. Again, thinking about it later, I realize this was the wrong thing to do. I can't think of a better setup for a gear-up landing.

So the question remains, how can we prevent gear up landings?

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[Jerry 5TJ]

36 minutes ago, steingar said:

I know guys who have landed Skyhawks at several big Bravos.  They do it.

Sure, it is no problem to take our GA planes into major airports.  Well, it is expensive and you want a geo-referenced taxi chart on your iPad, but no problem.  
The trickiest I’ve experienced were SFO and JFK, probably because those airports are tightly packed into very limited real estate.  

[epsalant]

"Sure, it is no problem to take our GA planes into major airports.  Well, it is expensive and you want a geo-referenced taxi chart on your iPad, but no problem. "

It's free if you're on an Angel Flight!



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[Bob - S50]

41 minutes ago, epsalant said:

Exactly. Getting back to the main topic, how do we prevent gear-ups from happening?

When I flew into a busy bravo (KBOS) in my M20J I what is given vectors to what I thought was upwind. I was pretty high and pretty fast when the controller cleared me straight to the numbers. Following the clearance he requested I maintain 165 knots for a big jet behind me. The runway was something like 10,000 ft long so it seemed doable. I replied "Rodger.". The correct answer, which I realized after landing, was "Unable." I landed just fine and was thanked by the tower. Again, thinking about it later, I realize this was the wrong thing to do. I can't think of a better setup for a gear-up landing.

So the question remains, how can we prevent gear up landings?

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We can't.

Even if we had a system like the Arrow had that automatically extended the gear below a certain speed, it can malfunction.  And having a system like that might build a habit of forgetting to lower the handle because the system saved us.

Heck, I knew a guy in the Air Force, that just a couple months before he was going to retire after 20 years, for some reason he could not understand, retracted the gear AFTER he landed.

We can only hope that people will build habits that make them less likely to land gear up.  Habits.  Consistency. Double checking.  Triple checking.  Aviate, navigate, communicate.

[RobertGary1]

45 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Sure, it is no problem to take our GA planes into major airports.  Well, it is expensive and you want a geo-referenced taxi chart on your iPad, but no problem.  
The trickiest I’ve experienced were SFO and JFK, probably because those airports are tightly packed into very limited real estate.  

GA planes are not all the same. A 172 on a busy day at sfo isn’t going to get worked into final very quickly while a king air won’t have an issue. It’s how easy they can match speed. Usually they ask if I can hold 130knots on final. 
-Robert 

[Ibra]

26 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

GA planes are not all the same. A 172 on a busy day at sfo isn’t going to get worked into final very quickly while a king air won’t have an issue. It’s how easy they can match speed. Usually they ask if I can hold 130knots on final.

They need (or better the pilot should) to insist on 6NM/3min wake turbulence separation, usually, I try to ask visual circuits with join/orbit via upwind/overhead in busy big places but yes not an option when you are IFR on a long final in GA with 747 behind, you just get crunched in between, how fast? the max you can get...

Also, ATC have misconception that all Mooney can achieve 230kts, so maybe adding Mite, Vintage, Normally Aspirated to Mooney call-sign would help slowing down things

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ibra

[Ricky_231]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:03 AM, LANCECASPER said:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/tpp-geardown.php?clickkey=71555

I bought one of those stickers the day I bought the mooney - because it's always there, at one point it's like it isn't there at all. Then I put it on the side window, so it'd be right there when I turned base. The obvious flaw there is on straight-in or instrument approaches, or right traffic patterns. 

I also have a little lady (I call her Judith) that yells "Gear down! Gear down! Gear down!" anytime my MP drops below a certain point (can't figure out whether it's 18" or 16") and I'm low and/or slow - like I said, it was already installed and I'm not sure what else triggers it (I should find the manual and read it). It's pretty effective because she won't shut up until I bring the gear down and it's right there in my ear whereas the gear down beep gets drowned among all the other noises the plane is making as you configure it for final approach.

Lastly - as many have said, 99% of the time I put the gear down to slow the plane down to Vfe.

[Seymour]

17 hours ago, jlunseth said:

At about 50’ from the deck on short final I noticed my speed was not managing, which lead me to check the gear, which was not down.  I had gotten distracted and not done it.  I did a go around.

Gear horn??     

(Just curious because my gear horn sounds very similar to the stall horn so I get the "OMG GEAR!" rush just before every squeaker)

Dave

[kortopates]

25 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Gear horn??     

(Just curious because my gear horn sounds very similar to the stall horn so I get the "OMG GEAR!" rush just before every squeaker)

Dave

Good point, the gear down should be sounding whenever pulling the power back for landing if the gear is still up. And for a very long time on a power off landing - if the gear is still up!

Although the tone is the same as the stall horn,  they're very different since  gear horn is a pulsating tone (beep, beep, beep,...) while the stall horn is a continuous tone. But I've seen a number of gear horns replaced with the wrong unit intended for the gear horn. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by kortopates

[Seymour]

Just now, kortopates said:

Although the tone is the same as the stall horn,  they're very different since  gear horn is a pulsating tone (beep, beep, beep,...) while the stall horn is a continuous tone. But I've seen a number of gear horns replaced with the wrong unit intended for the gear horn. 

Thanks Paul,  that would explain it!   Both of mine are continuous.   Time to look up part numbers, or.....

@Alan Fox , do you have a gear horn ?

[markgrue]

58 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Gear horn??     

(Just curious because my gear horn sounds very similar to the stall horn so I get the "OMG GEAR!" rush just before every squeaker)

Dave

I think my gear horn is the same as the stall horn also.  I know I cannot ignore it though because the thing is so loud I think all of the other planes in the pattern can hear it.  I have had some others tell me to put the gear down when I do callouts with the horn sounding.  They can hear it over the radio.  

 

Mark

[smwash02]

38 minutes ago, Seymour said:

Thanks Paul,  that would explain it!   Both of mine are continuous.   Time to look up part numbers, or.....

@Alan Fox , do you have a gear horn ?

My '66C only had a continuous tone as well. Parts manual says it's part '#319' for both of us -- Here is a photo of it. You may want to take a peek to see before buying a new one.

[RobertGary1]

28 minutes ago, markgrue said:

I think my gear horn is the same as the stall horn also.  I know I cannot ignore it though because the thing is so loud I think all of the other planes in the pattern can hear it.  I have had some others tell me to put the gear down when I do callouts with the horn sounding.  They can hear it over the radio.  

 

Mark

I don't think its supposed to be but I've flown in student's planes where it is. The sonalert in most Mooneys is a different P/N that is intermitant beep (its also longer) where as the stall is a steady sound. But I've found a very common failure mode for the gear horn to fail is to be steady.

I"ve flown in the right seat with students as the gear horn was going off all the way down final. Its easy to dismiss (which is why I have the voice annunicator like the airlines use)>

-Robert

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, smwash02 said:

My '66C only had a continuous tone as well. Parts manual says it's part '#319' for both of us -- Here is a photo of it. You may want to take a peek to see before buying a new one.

Not sure about the earlier Vintage models, they did originally use a different pizo device than those used today such as what you see in your parts manual. But we had one owner here speak about a Mooney Service bulletin to enable going to the newer style of Sonalert. At some point, Mooney went to the Sonalert SC628 (continuous) for the stall and Sonalert SC628P (pulsating) gear which is now replaced by the SC628PR. King Autopilots use a third Sonalert, also continuous. Sonalerts are a standard part available for $30-$40 from many of the electronics houses such as Newark, Digikey, Allied etc. Mooney or LASAR should be able to verify the legality of going with the new version. But I think the service kit included some hardware to mount the newer Sonalert since its got a different footprint. 

[jlunseth]

3 hours ago, Seymour said:

Gear horn??     

(Just curious because my gear horn sounds very similar to the stall horn so I get the "OMG GEAR!" rush just before every squeaker)

Dave

I don't have a gear horn, I have an aural annunciator, and no doubt it had said "GUMPS check" to me a few times, but I was really concerned those guys with the ultralight were going to takeoff without even looking, or step up on the runway, or the guy in the F who wasn't talking was going to just grab the runway and go, I did the classic thing and ignored it.  Rural airports are safe and quiet until they are not.  Same airport not long after a guy in a spray plane took the direct route from a field he was spraying, to the runway, about 100' AGL and right in front of me.  He never said a word on the radio.  That's the problem, distractions will happen.  I caught it and all was good.

[Nick Pilotte]

I know this isn’t a Mooney but it evidently happens with bigger boys too.  This just happened at KDAB. Citation 510 (Mustang)
Sliding down the runway

Edited February 20, 2020 by Nick Pilotte