New pilot looking for a plane

[MIm20c]

I have a friend looking to purchase a plane for flight training. Both he and his son will be using it to train in, both with zero experience. My gut says go with a nice 182 that will last them many years.

What aircraft would you suggest and why?

[Guitarmaster]

No doubt a 182 is a good plane. Forgiving, docile, fast enough to travel in and a good hauler.

Of course, the average price tag reflects that.

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[tigers2007]

For S&G, checkout MiBids web site. The State of Michigan is auctioning off a very nice 182 right now. Last I saw it was at $52k. No expense spared; its a government aircraft! 

[gsxrpilot]

Piper Cherokee 140. They are super cheap and easy trainers. The flight schools haven't driven the values up like on the 172's/182's. 

The last thing they should do is buy a plane for the long haul. Get one cheap to train in and then sell it to get something better... maybe a Mooney.

[DustinNwind]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

For S&G, checkout MiBids web site. The State of Michigan is auctioning off a very nice 182 right now. Last I saw it was at $52k. No expense spared; its a government aircraft! 

Totaled out engine and 9,500 TT - she's been used. 

[carusoam]

Select trainer for training.

 

Two people will get good use out of it...

 

Sell when training is finished...

 

Move up to Mooney of your choice after the two pilots have gotten some good cross country experience out of the trainer...

A round number for a few MSers going from trainer to Mooney is about 100 hours of flight time...

Similar automotive logic goes like this...

Training in a C182 is similar to learning to drive using a sport ute... sure it can be done...

Training in a Mooney is similar to learning to drive using a Corvette... I’m all for it, just don’t think it is worth the added risks.

 

One of the coolest things you learn about flying comes from flying two dissimilar planes...

The heavier they are, the greater the challenges become...

Trainers are great to learn to fly in... there is plenty of frustration included with training in a C152... there will be even more frustration using a less forgiving plane...

 

My favorite two planes for this challenge... A C152 followed by a Mooney...

Stepping up is easier for some people than it is for others...

1) It takes a fair amount of excess dough...

2) It takes a fair amount of excess time...

If you are blessed with excess dough and time... you can skip the trainer phase a touch more easily...

If you skip the trainer phase, you will still miss out on the differences of the various planes...

Don’t rush... we want you to be with us a long time...

I remember waiting for that first Mooney... there was no MS...

Then the step-up Mooney... MS was brand new...

Then the decision to upgrade to the Standing O... after some serious consulting with Cris, my Screamin’ Eagle CFII...

To get what it is you want... it helps to get a feel for each of the options... hard to get a feel for a plane, if you don’t have the license already...

To get a real feel for all the costs, the value, and the ‘is it worth it to me’ answers for yourself... it takes some time...

Time is often measured in years... not just flight hours.  Each season is different.  Each part of the country is different. There is sooo much to learn and take in...

Is the IR part of the initial plan?

Does anyone want to go commercial pilot?

How far does the plan go?

Make it happen!   

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[skydvrboy]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Piper Cherokee 140. They are super cheap and easy trainers. The flight schools haven't driven the values up like on the 172's/182's. 

The last thing they should do is buy a plane for the long haul. Get one cheap to train in and then sell it to get something better... maybe a Mooney.

It would be tough to beat this advice. The only way I’d differ from this is if you have access to a cheap rental.

[tigers2007]

1 hour ago, DustinNwind said:

Totaled out engine and 9,500 TT - she's been used. 

Engine has 1812 hours since factory reman. on 04-April-2011. I did see though that the compressions are all uniformly in the 60's; kinda seems odd. Regardless, for $57k it isn't a bad deal. Top it ($8400+labor) and fly another 500 hours before re-evaluating. Too bad we don't see many Gov owned Mooneys go up for sale.

Jewell's price list for the O-470 is $17,750 plus accessories plus R&R plus prop. You could easily get away with $30k. Not bad to have a 1979 C182 with a 2009 interior and Stec 30 with a fresh motor for under $100k. 

If I were the OP's friend, I'd really shoot for a rough but sturdy Mooney C or E, a C172, or a Warrior with basic instruments.  Upgrade later after they beat the crap out of the plane with the training. Add the fancy avionics later after they pass the test of true interest in aviation (i.e. willing to pay to play). I'm sure the OP briefed them on the immense sunk costs of aircraft ownership.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by tigers2007
Opined some more.

[MIm20c]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Piper Cherokee 140. They are super cheap and easy trainers. The flight schools haven't driven the values up like on the 172's/182's. 

The last thing they should do is buy a plane for the long haul. Get one cheap to train in and then sell it to get something better... maybe a Mooney.

This is my internal debate when giving him advice.  The father recently retired and the son is finishing up college. I don’t really know if the aviation bug will bite hard but they are both detail oriented people who rarely give up on goals. I’ve seen many people pick up a 182 as a retirement plane because it does so many things well.  One thing I absolutely want to avoid is buying a project plane. Money is not really an issue but like everyone they want a good value. 
 

In many years of watching used plane sales I see very few well sorted 140’s and similar planes. Normally the really nice ones are bought, improved, and sold by well financed individuals who are providing it for their loved ones. 
 

What negatives would the 182 bring to the table besides higher fuel burn?  What would a realistic cruise be for a 79-82 vintage with wheel pants?

[skydvrboy]

The more I think about this, the more I think renting is the best option here.  The people who have answered and given you advice (myself included) are the rare individuals who actually complete their training and became pilots.  According to AOPA, the dropout rate for students is between 70% and 80%.  At this early stage, do they even know they'll like flying?  If they really MUST buy an airplane for training, buy the cheapest airplane that is safe to fly, get the rating, and then pass it on to the next student.

The 182 is a fine plane (as are many other options), but how good of a value is it if they buy a great plane and leave it sitting because neither finish their training?  Of course, everyone thinks they'll finish when they start training, but the statistics say otherwise.

[ilovecornfields]

It’s hard to predict the future but a 182 might not be a bad choice. I did almost all my primary training in an Arrow. That might actually not be a bad choice since the wing spar AD probably has dropped the prices quite a bit. I looked a few years ago and there were some pretty nice Arrow IIIs out there at reasonable prices. If they give up on the training, they can probably sell it after a couple of years for not much less than they bought it. If they keep it, it’s a great plane to get your private, instrument and commercial in and pretty comfortable for travel. It’s not fast or sexy but it’s very forgiving, pretty stable and gets your from point A to point B reasonably well. I almost bought an Arrow before I started reading about these mythical Mooneys...

182 is a great plane as well but probably not as good a “deal” as the Cherokees these days.

[rbridges]

I remember when looking for a 182, lots of them had firewall damage from hard landings on the nose gear.  I'd probably go with something else until they're a little more seasoned.  Beat up a trainer and be nicer on your own plane.  lol

[MIm20c]

All good ideas. One thing I feel strongly about is the freedom to choose an instructor that fits your personality best. Sometimes the closest place to rent is limited on quality CFI’s.  

[Niko182]

After learning the basics in a j3 cub, id never want it any other way. They can be had for under 30k. 

[Browncbr1]

182 with wheel pants tops out at about 130kts at a reasonable power setting (at least the one I flew did).    They climb great though, so that mitigates the slow cruise somewhat.

One thing about the 182 is you run out of elevator quickly if landing power off...  There is a lot of weight up there and the center of thrust is below CG... NEVER EVER chop the throttle when close to the ground like coming across the threshold or numbers..   I'm guessing that's why a previous poster mentioned many having firewall damage from landing hard on nose gear.

There are a few 182RGs out there that I would have to say are nice.  A hangar neighbor has a very cherry one and he says the expensive landing gear maintenance like on the 210 doesn't apply.  I can't remember exactly what is different, but he was insistent that it is a non-issue.  

If you want something to train and also fly longer term, to echo gsxrpilot, but take it a little further, check out the piper Dakota.  I was kind of surprised when a buddy told me his UL and cruise speed for that airframe..    I mean, it's no mooney, but it's no 140 either.. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Browncbr1

[gsengle]

The real issue here is you can’t choose a plane very well before you’re a pilot. You may think you’ve figured out your mission or how you’ll use the plane or what limits or characteristics matter to you. But you have no clue. You don’t know what you don’t know. This combined with the fact that training is for wear and tear reasons best done in someone else’s plane, and a good trainer is seldom the best forever plane, it’s best to rent until everyone has passed some checkrides imho.


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[MIm20c]

On 10/13/2019 at 8:04 PM, tigers2007 said:

For S&G, checkout MiBids web site. The State of Michigan is auctioning off a very nice 182 right now. Last I saw it was at $52k. No expense spared; its a government aircraft! 

30 mins left...wonder what a good ‘79 182 is worth these days?

182Q

[MinneMooney]

On 10/13/2019 at 8:40 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Piper Cherokee 140. They are super cheap and easy trainers. The flight schools haven't driven the values up like on the 172's/182's. 

The last thing they should do is buy a plane for the long haul. Get one cheap to train in and then sell it to get something better... maybe a Mooney.

+1 on the Cherokee 140. My dad and I bought a ‘69 140 back in the early 1980’s and I got my pp and inst. rating in it. Moved on to a ‘53 Bonanza and now a ‘65 M20C. The 140 was a great plane to learn in and was simple to maintain. Also, with the Hershey bar wing, it was more difficult to land well than either the Bonanza or the Mooney.

[MIm20c]

I appreciate all the input. I think a good recommendation at this time might be Flight Fast Track. He winters down on Marco Island and could easily drive over to train and rent the Cherokee aircraft available. Then start looking at (higher performance) aircraft in the spring. 

[Stnelson903]

Try a Cessna 140 taildragger. Get the training done and some CC time. Sale it and move to a Mooney. When you learn to fly in a taildragger, you can transition to HP much easier.


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[kpaul]

10 hours ago, MIm20c said:

30 mins left...wonder what a good ‘79 182 is worth these days?

182Q

Apparently $92,475 with the taxes and fees