Mooney Down - KCHD

[RogueOne]

Boy, what a depressing thread. As a guy excited to fly his new plane with an experienced pilot/instructor this incident (in a scheme very similar to mine) has rekindled some bad memories...

Agree that being kind to fellow pilots is just as easy as being callous and self righteous. 

All this litigation talk is a buzzkill to my anticipated event. 

Chillax please...

[Nick Pilotte]

New here, been lurking for a long time and joined not long ago while in market for a long body and transition training to go with it.  While I agree that having a CFI familiar with the type to work with for the transition, I am most concerned with the individuals involved right now.  They have both been through a traumatic event and I can only assume they are either not active on this site or are keeping completely hush about it pending whatever litigation or subrogation is about to ensue in this ridiculous society we live in.  I personally hope they are doing ok first and foremost, and are not struggling with blame at this point.  I’ve been in a service industry (automotive) for most of my life and in the business this sucks to have happen (and it does).   Bent sheet metal, however expensive is still WAY cheaper than loss of life and much easier to get over.  

 

My $.02 only. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Nick!

Tough thread to start with...

The future will be brighter by far...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

On 9/17/2019 at 4:47 PM, Yetti said:

So you did not learn the lesson and are doomed to repeat it.

Better to not learn the lesson than be crispy crittered among smoking wreckage.

[Austintatious]

Not to interrupt the debate on the subtleties of PIC....

But I am curious about this accident and what happened.  Seems like a good aircraft was bent (glad no one was harmed) on what we might assume was a nice day to be training/checking.

What I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that in ground effect the wing will stall at a lower angle of attack than it would out of ground effect.  Perhaps this accident was the result of an overly aggressive pull on takeoff even though indicated airspeed was sufficient.  It may be that no stall warning was heard as the wing was in ground effect and stalled/dropped a wing at an AOA lower than the typical AOA required to set it off.  It may also depend on the particular stall vane on that aircraft.  It may have been improperly installed, bent, jammed, who knows.

 

Is there any more info on what happened?  Even if it was pilot error, it is worth knowing what happened so we can learn something.

[N201MKTurbo]

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20190914X20733&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=CA

 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

link broken

 

[Davidv]

FYI, if anyone is interested, the parts from this plane are available on eBay from BAs Part Sales.  Since the aircraft was in pretty good condition when it got salvaged most parts appear to be in good condition...

[carusoam]

Austin,

Seems like...

Soft field technique was used...

but, didn’t allow for acceleration... before leaving ground effect.

No acceleration... leads to exiting ground effect without the necessary speed for flight...

Resulting in a stall once outside of ground effect.  The plane’s attitude doesn’t change, but the actual AOA exceeds critical...

Select your Mooney specific CFI Carefully...?

This happened in seconds maybe?

To keep this from occurring... a thorough discussion before hand would have been appropriate...

Afterwards, a firm push on the yoke would have been required...

It would be very difficult for a CFI to react in time for a student doing the unexpected...

Transition, isn’t usually Flight 101...

And Mooneys aren’t where you go to learn soft-field technique...

PP thoughts only, I haven’t bent metal yet, but came awfully close with a CFI on board...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

link broken

 

Works now. Apple thought they had a better way to paste a link....

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, carusoam said:

It would be very difficult for a CFI to react in time for a student doing the unexpected...

Transition, isn’t usually Flight 101...

And Mooneys aren’t where you go to learn soft-field technique...

 

I think it is imperative to teach soft field technique. I want the student to be able to know what it feels like to operate the airplane successfully at the edge of the envelope.  Doing a soft field takeoff in a Mooney is no different than doing it in any other airplane.  I do tell the student that it is not advisable to actually do a soft field takeoff on a soft field due to the landing gear design of the Mooney.  I do, however, know of several Mooney owners who operate out of soft fields, Jerry Johnson, an instructor for the Mooney PPP being one of them.

There is absolutely no problem in doing it with the power of the Bravo.  With a normally aspirated Mooney model at high density altitude, it's not a good idea.  At that point even doing a normal takeoff requires paying close attention to the POH required takeoff distances.

With the Bravo, as the nose comes up, with the engine torque generated with its 270 HP and large P-factor, a large amount of right rudder is required to maintain runway alignment even with full right rudder trim.  As the nose comes up, it is essential to relax the back pressure to maintain the normal takeoff attitude, and as the wheels come off the ground even more release of back pressure is required to keep the plane in ground effect until accelerating through 80 knots, whereupon the climb out should be nailed at Vx until clear of obstacles.  Conscious effort is required to keep the nose down as the plane accelerates in ground effect.  Nobody new to the airplane wants to do that, as they think they will hit the prop.

An experienced Mooney CFI will not let the student do it by themselves the first time.  In fact, I have the student follow me through a demo the first time.  From my  experience it will generally take about 3 times before a student will feel comfortable doing them.  That's why, during transition training most takeoffs will be soft field takeoffs if someone is working with me.

Mooneys can be where you go to learn soft field technique as part of good training/transition training.

[carusoam]

Thanks Don!  For sharing all the extra details.

Best regards,

-a-

[Flash]

Here's the relevant part of the pilot's description of the flight:

We Departed CHD Chandler Municipal Airport shortly after 6 am and flew to Standfield VOR to practice approaches. We flew 2 ILS approaches and a VOR into Casa Grande airport, CGZ. I have been working with Mr Price to regain my instrument proficiency signoff and complete a BFR with this airplane at the same time. My BFR was done in a Piper Archer in January 2019 and I thought it would be good to have it with the Mooney Bravo. The final Approach that morning was into Chandler on the GPS 4R approach. Chandler airport is the home base for my airplane. I have a hangar there. The landing was uneventful. Another Takeoff was also successful after taxi back on 4L. We remained in the pattern and did a short field landing, stopped and taxied back. The final takeoff was to be a soft field takeoff which I had never done in this aircraft before but had done in other aircraft, then remain in the pattern and land coming to a full stop. I was cleared on runway 4l for takeoff with no delay by the tower controller. After taxiing onto the runway and centering the plane quickly, I applied power and pulled back on the yoke to raise the front tire gently from the surface. The back pressure on the yoke was in retrospect to abrupt for the power that this airplane had. It wasn't but 2 seconds later that the airplane began to fly in ground effect. The airspeed was about 10 kts slower than normal rotation speed. There was about a 9 to 10 KT crosswind at the 60 degree angle. At the airspeed it lifted off at I tried to bring the aircraft back into~ or keep it in ground effect. I was unable to keep the plane effectively flying in ground effect and was struggling to keep runway heading. The airplane touched the runway abruptly several times in the process of trying to achieve flight. I was trying to keep the airplane from porpoising. The airplane was also being pushed off the left side of the runway by the cross wind and I knew if the tire hit the median it would be impossible to control. I thought I had established a small rate of climb but was just above stall. I put up the landing gear hoping I could increase the rate of climb and correct the airplane heading. All the while I was trying to maintain airspeed and correct heading. Ultimately I was too aggressive trying to have he airplane fly and caused a stall. The left wing hit the taxiway at the edge of the median and the airplane slid on the belly to just in front of the fuel tanks at Chandler. It seems like it took forever but in reality~ it was only 5-7 seconds of time.

[Flash]

Being low and slow in a crosswind, having trouble keeping the airplane over the runway, and worried about porpoising -- that's a bad place to be. I wouldn't underestimate the role fatigue played. The pilot did four instrument approaches and a short-field landing before the unsuccessful short-field takeoff in a crosswind. Pilot was 63 on the date of the accident. Flight instructor was 72.

Here's a photo of the plane from the NTSB report file.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Here's the relevant part of the pilot's description of the flight:

We Departed CHD Chandler Municipal Airport shortly after 6 am and flew to Standfield VOR to practice approaches. We flew 2 ILS approaches and a VOR into Casa Grande airport, CGZ. I have been working with Mr Price to regain my instrument proficiency signoff and complete a BFR with this airplane at the same time. My BFR was done in a Piper Archer in January 2019 and I thought it would be good to have it with the Mooney Bravo. The final Approach that morning was into Chandler on the GPS 4R approach. Chandler airport is the home base for my airplane. I have a hangar there. The landing was uneventful. Another Takeoff was also successful after taxi back on 4L. We remained in the pattern and did a short field landing, stopped and taxied back. The final takeoff was to be a soft field takeoff which I had never done in this aircraft before but had done in other aircraft, then remain in the pattern and land coming to a full stop. I was cleared on runway 4l for takeoff with no delay by the tower controller. After taxiing onto the runway and centering the plane quickly, I applied power and pulled back on the yoke to raise the front tire gently from the surface. The back pressure on the yoke was in retrospect to abrupt for the power that this airplane had. It wasn't but 2 seconds later that the airplane began to fly in ground effect. The airspeed was about 10 kts slower than normal rotation speed. There was about a 9 to 10 KT crosswind at the 60 degree angle. At the airspeed it lifted off at I tried to bring the aircraft back into~ or keep it in ground effect. I was unable to keep the plane effectively flying in ground effect and was struggling to keep runway heading. The airplane touched the runway abruptly several times in the process of trying to achieve flight. I was trying to keep the airplane from porpoising. The airplane was also being pushed off the left side of the runway by the cross wind and I knew if the tire hit the median it would be impossible to control. I thought I had established a small rate of climb but was just above stall. I put up the landing gear hoping I could increase the rate of climb and correct the airplane heading. All the while I was trying to maintain airspeed and correct heading. Ultimately I was too aggressive trying to have he airplane fly and caused a stall. The left wing hit the taxiway at the edge of the median and the airplane slid on the belly to just in front of the fuel tanks at Chandler. It seems like it took forever but in reality~ it was only 5-7 seconds of time.

This one is a tough one to swallow in that it appears that the student had recently purchased the airplane and was flying with a well known very experienced Mooney specific CFI.  The writeup was measured and put the student in the best light possible in view of the end result. As a Bravo owner and flight instructor, I'd like to "Monday morning quarterback" this accident and from experience try to analyze this takeoff from the above description. 

I'm going to assume in September early in the morning at Chandler with a field elevation of 1,243 feet, the DA was less than 2,000 feet, so DA was not a factor in this accident.  I'd need a better angle on the plane to see if approach flaps had been applied.  That would make a difference.  You get ⅔ as much lift as drag with approach flaps.  In fact I always keep approach flaps in on climb out until all low level turns have been completed.  A soft field takeoff does begin with the yoke fully back.  So far so good.  It takes about 4 seconds (not 2) in the Bravo for the nose to start up and another 4 seconds for the wheels to come off the ground.  If the elevator was full back at the start of the roll there is no way it could have been too abrupt.  While the crosswind component of 8 knots would make the takeoff a little more difficult, it should not have been a deciding factor in the outcome.  From the description, the pilot did not relax the back pressure when the nose wheel came up and did not further reduce the pressure to a level attitude as the wheels came off the ground.  The acceleration part of the flight in ground effect should be flown no greater than a foot off the ground.  This will reduce induced drag by nearly 50% and allow for brisk acceleration in the Bravo.  The elevator had to have been held back for it to bounce several times and not accelerate, as it should have.  He was not flying in ground effect, but bouncing in a stalled condition down the runway.  The Bravo accelerates nicely when in ground effect when coming off the ground 10 knots below the normal takeoff speed of 65 knots due to the reduction in induced drag discussed above.  The gear should never be raised below 50 feet.  That sealed their fate.   

[aviatoreb]

I just noticed this airplane is listing on ebay, as a part out.

[Hank]

Anyone need FIKI tail parts?  

[aviatoreb]

9 minutes ago, Hank said:

Anyone need FIKI tail parts?  

Yeah.  No kidding.  Well about 3 years ago I lost a tks stall strip - a little chunk of Ti - and I can't even remember the price but it was embarrassing - I want to sat $2500?  But the worst part was...you couldn't get it!  There was like a 6 month waiting list.  I finally found one old new stock somewhere for something like half that and was happy to get it. Those tks labels and stall stripes are super expensive.

That said - very sad sad sight to actually see the munched mooney.  But the silver lining it does bring a spring of relief to see that its really just a munched wing and the cockpit is nice and pristine safe.

[larryb]

After reading the accident description he first thing that came to mind was not resetting the trim for takeoff.

[Flash]

20 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'd need a better angle on the plane to see if approach flaps had been applied.  That would make a difference

Looks like he had take-off flaps, per this blow-up of a photo that's on the first page of this thread.

[Ibra]

23 hours ago, donkaye said:

I'm going to assume in September early in the morning at Chandler with a field elevation of 1,243 feet, the DA was less than 2,000 feet, so DA was not a factor in this accident.  I'd need a better angle on the plane to see if approach flaps had been applied.  That would make a difference

Same my first guess was an early or abrupt rotation will full or 1/2 flaps on hot surface, the rest is mainly pilot oscillations (PIOs) once you are stuck in the regime with wheels stuck on the ground, this one is similar on M20J and mainly attributed to full flaps but similar story

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/83278

I am not sure about the Bravo on a soft field takeoff but it has a high thrust to weight ratio, os high chance the aircraft may achieve large positive vertical acceleration on high pitch even way before the aircraft is ready to fly out of ground effect/contact (lift = weight), so unless one release back pressure they will be stuck bouncing up/down until the end of the runway...

Most students do go and learn/teach soft field techniques on under-powered tricycles (C172) or tailwheels (90hp Cub or 300hp Extra), on former there is no way the aircraft will jump off the runway even with the stick full back all the way with full power on a blink, on the latter tailwheel keep you somehow on the ground. Also, many confuse soft field takeoff, short field takeoff and soft & short field takeoff and being less familiar with high powered type will just add to the mix, so probably something the CFI is better demonstrating first? including how to sort out an over rotation? (although demonstrating how to recover a Mooney from high 25deg pitch at 40kts and 10ft agl need more stuff in the baggage box than coordination skills )

Is the Bravo is a soft field aircraft? the POH says yes, personally I think no flaps and short field takeoff/landing are far more appropriate and useful for that conversion...

[EricJ]

Is this not the sort of thing that the instructor could have recovered/corrected as it started to happen?

 

[donkaye]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Is this not the sort of thing that the instructor could have recovered/corrected as it started to happen?

 

In my opinion, yes.

[M016576]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion, yes.

Agreed.
 

 That’s the reason why an instructor is there, really... to anticipate this sort of issue and be ready to stop it.

[Ibra]

11 hours ago, M016576 said:

That’s the reason why an instructor is there, really... to anticipate this sort of issue and be ready to stop it.

Yes main reason why instructor get paid is "stop it early" (push yoke or reject takeoff)