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Seat pocket fire extinguisher.

RobertGary1

By RobertGary1
in General Mooney Talk

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EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

I saw these a few months ago and think they look very interesting.  Also very portable.

https://elementfire.com/

Not sure how great they'd be in a confined space (they use up a lot of O2), and once started, they cannot be shut off until fully discharged, which is something like 50 seconds for the e50.

Less than ideal in a small cabin, I'd think.   I really struggle with what a good solution is for a cabin extinguisher.   Halon 1301 or 1211 is the shizzle, but it's muy $$.

 

Austintatious Experienced

Austintatious

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Not sure how great they'd be in a confined space (they use up a lot of O2), and once started, they cannot be shut off until fully discharged, which is something like 50 seconds for the e50.

Less than ideal in a small cabin, I'd think.   I really struggle with what a good solution is for a cabin extinguisher.   Halon 1301 or 1211 is the shizzle, but it's muy $$.

 

Fighting fire with fire?

 

maybe you use it and then throw it out the side window!

 

  • Like 2
MoonFlyer68 Community Regular

MoonFlyer68

Posted
Posted

here is some of the info from the FAQ on the website.  I am not a scientist, but if these claims are all true, then it could be a good option.  It even says it is non-corrosive.  Using any type of a fire extinguisher inside a small enclosed space I am sure presents at least some level of hazard.

IS THE GAS SAFE TO BREATHE?

Element's discharge is safe to breathe and is both non-corrosive and non-toxic. General safe practices are always recommended and the discharge should not be aimed at a person's face.

HOW DOES ELEMENT WORK?

Element works by fighting fires on the molecular level. Its gas chemically interrupts the chain of combustion effectively extinguishing a fire without making any mess and without removing surrounding oxygen. 

 

  • Like 1
wishboneash Experienced

wishboneash

Posted
Posted

They don't mention aviation use anywhere on their website. Since it doesn't deplete oxygen outside the immediate environment of the fire, it might be good in a closed cabin. To be verified of course.

----

"Unlike a dry chemical extinguisher that combats a blaze by depositing a large amount of solid powder on the fire, an Element extinguisher fights a fire by releasing a gas. This gas attaches itself to the oxygen surrounding the fire robbing its ability to stick to the chain of combustion (without affecting ones ability to breath that oxygen). The goal is therefore to use the gas coming out the Element extinguisher to create a ‘cloud of containment’ around a fire. Creating a cloud that prevents any outside and un-attached oxygen from getting to the fire is essential and is the same strategy that should also be used with a Halon/Halotron or CO2 extinguisher."

CharlesHuddleston Collaborator

CharlesHuddleston

Posted
Posted

Just watched the Jay Leno info-mercial about the Element. Per the product guy, it can be used in a confined space about 1.5 cubic meters. The fumes it produces are apparently non-toxic. No shelf life or expiration. I think they just sold one to me!

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

site looks impressive

I'm going to a firefighting conference I'll check if element is there.

Please let us know what you hear / find out. Halon is pricey, expires and is getting hard to find.

jwilcoxon78 Collaborator

jwilcoxon78

Posted
Posted

Very interesting.  Says that it was designed for the space program though.  Can't think of a more critical, enclosed space to get this right. 

EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, jwilcoxon78 said:

Very interesting.  Says that it was designed for the space program though.  Can't think of a more critical, enclosed space to get this right. 

With marketing you never know.   Don't assume it was developed for use in a spacecraft.   It could have been developed for the tugs that drag the equipment to the launch pad and the marketers will put "Developed for the Space Program!" all over it.

The one little vid I found of somebody using one wasn't encouraging for in-cabin use, but I'm interested to see what people find out.

  • Like 1
kortopates Grand Master

kortopates

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Looks like H3R no longer makes the little 8”x3” one I used to use. What are other people putting in their seat pockets?

 

-Robert 

What about this HRT A400 with Halon 1211-1301 Blend. Its an 8x3 size bottle I have in my aircraft. Been going strong for 9 years so far. 

The element looks appealing too, but lack of control for in cockpit use is concerning and although cheaper than the above solution,  bit pricey to buy just to test out.

1964-M20E Grand Master

1964-M20E

Posted
Posted
On 8/9/2019 at 7:38 AM, Hank said:

Please let us know what you hear / find out. Halon is pricey, expires and is getting hard to find.

Nobody had anything like it there and they didn't even know about it.

However, they did sell me some fire hose and nozzles they said I could use that to put out a fire in the plane.  All I need to do now is be able to stop at the nearest cloud and hook up to the hydrant there.:o:D

  • Like 1
kortopates Grand Master

kortopates

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, 1964-M20E said:

Nobody had anything like it there and they didn't even know about it.

However, they did sell me some fire hose and nozzles they said I could use that to put out a fire in the plane.  All I need to do now is be able to stop at the nearest cloud and hook up to the hydrant there.:o:D

From what I read, i the Halon formula is only legal for aviation use - apparently banned for any other use. Apparently its made in Canada now (although there be other sources). But I think the gist is we can only get from an aviation supplier.

EricJ Grand Master

EricJ

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, kortopates said:

From what I read, i the Halon formula is only legal for aviation use - apparently banned for any other use. Apparently its made in Canada now (although there be other sources). But I think the gist is we can only get from an aviation supplier.

I was told that it's not even legal to make it any more but that there's enough stock around to keep the aviation industry supplied for a long time.   Not sure whether that's totally true or not, but I don't think the prices are going to come down any time soon if ever.

 

N201MKTurbo Grand Master

N201MKTurbo

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Looks ready to mount near the floor...

 

A911F03F-77F2-49B7-849D-D9185A0CEFC8.jpeg

It is way too big for the airplane! It has 9 pounds of Halon.

I actually have 2 small Halon extinguishers. One is in the passengers seat back, the other is on the shelf in the hangar. They are both in the green.

  • Like 2
  • 3 months later...
201Steve Veteran

201Steve

Posted
Posted

Has anyone tried the Element Fire or at least made the purchase? I read in the Vans forum that someone pointed out that it only ships via ground. I'm wondering if anyone has taken it up to altitude. No idea if there is a correlation there, but if you've taken it up and it hasn't popped or anything, I guess it's reasonably safe?

I've had a heck of a time selecting a suitable fire extinguisher with the poor reviews (leaking) on the very small PRT (Spruce), high cost of the "good" halon, and the burden of a big bottle somewhere.

Really like the Element Fire idea. From all that I've gathered, the biggest issue thus far is the inability to shut it off. As mentioned somewhere above, I guess you could either vent it out the pilot window or either just throw it out.

PT20J Grand Master

PT20J

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Really like the Element Fire idea. From all that I've gathered, the biggest issue thus far is the inability to shut it off. As mentioned somewhere above, I guess you could either vent it out the pilot window or either just throw it out.

From the instructions and video it appears to be a pyrotechnic device (similar to a road flare) which is probably why it only ships by ground. I doubt it would be safe to use in an enclosed area. 

I just had the Mooney factory-installed extinguisher from my '94 J serviced. It's the first time I had it out of it's mount on the front of the spar on the left side since I purchased the plane. That thing is so hard to get out of it's recessed mount that I'd be burned to a crisp before I ever got to it. Anybody got a better solution?

Skip

Gagarin Community Regular

Gagarin

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2019 at 8:02 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Looks like H3R no longer makes the little 8”x3” one I used to use. What are other people putting in their seat pockets?

 

-Robert 

Aircraft Spruce have them in stock https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/a344t.php

I have mine attached to the tubing structure in the pilot footwell. Away from kids access. After 10 years still holding pressure.

1050299972_FireExt.1.thumb.JPG.e07595b2b8d41bdb4b0569bea676366b.JPG

Edited by Gagarin
Seymour Community Regular

Seymour

Posted
Posted

Aviation application was asked in a Ferrari board last year and a company representative's answer and the current FAQ about UL certification are posted below (along with the links for this information):

https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/element-fire-extinguisher-an-introduction.564980/page-4

and

https://elementfire.com/pages/faqs

 

First Link:

Coupon codes sent

As for use in aircraft applications, we have a number of customers who have chosen to carry Element in their personal small aircraft. Many of them cite the one handed operation (after striking) as a bonus because it allows to put out a dash fire while still being able to control the aircraft. That said at present Element cannot be used to legally substitute areas where a UL certified extinguisher is required (like the annually inspected bottles in the hangar) so any decision to use these needs to be done as a supplement to whatever is required by the fire marshal. This topic is covered in greater detail in the FAQ section of our website. We have a number of customers who supplement extinguishers with Element which is totally allowed by law. Hope this helps
 
Second Link:

IS ELEMENT CERTIFIED? 

Originating in Italy, Element has been certified for sale in Europe by CE and TUV. Institutionally it has been tested and certified for use by multiple international military and police groups who have adopted it for active use.

In North America, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is responsible for the certification of fire extinguishers. UL does their testing to a standard that contains a form (physical shape) component followed by a performance component. Because Element's form does not fit inside of UL's guidelines of what a traditional fire extinguisher looks like (i.e. compressed gas cylinder with a hose and measurement gauge) it is immediately passed over for performance testing. At present UL is being campaigned to update its standards to recognize the different form offered by Element and allow it an opportunity to be tested and certified.

Until the standards are updated Element cannot be used to substitute extinguishers in regulated environments that require a UL (or UL endorsed) certification. Element can however be freely used as an supplement to the extinguishers used where regulation exists.

There are no restrictions in non-regulated environments (car, home, personal garage, etc.) allowing Element to be used freely.

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