Surefly electronic ignition question

[David Lloyd]

The timing curve used to be on their site but was removed recently.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, PT20J said:

Where did you find the curve on Surefly’s website? I looked all over and couldn’t find it. I emailed them (twice) asking for it but so far no dice. 

Interesting that Lycoming’s rebranded version is set for fixed timing.

Skip

They had it posted until recently, but there’s a copy of it on that RV thread.  Don’t think it’ll change anytime soon due to all the certification they went through!

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

They had it posted until recently, but there’s a copy of it on that RV thread.  Don’t think it’ll change anytime soon due to all the certification they went through!

I remember it being there also. But, now that it’s certified, the graph is gone. 

I wrote the following to Surefly:

I am interested in replacing the Slick impulse-coupled magneto on a Lycoming IO-360-A3B6 installed on an M20J with a SIM.

Can you supply the timing advance schedule (as a function of MAP and rpm) for the SIM?

I note the SIM uses a wasted spark design. What is effect on spark plug life? Do you recommend iridium plugs?

Do you have any data showing performance or fuel efficiency improvements for my engine?

The reply was:

We do not recommend any spark plugs outside your standard manufacturers specs. Your engine is approved for both fixed and variable timing. The fuel efficiency and improvements are based on so many variables that we can’t give any definitive numbers. The wasted spark system should not affect the life of a standard plug.

They did not send the advance curve. I asked again for it, but have not received a reply. I’ll share it if I ever get it. 

Skip

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I remember it being there also. But, now that it’s certified, the graph is gone. 

I wrote the following to Surefly:

I am interested in replacing the Slick impulse-coupled magneto on a Lycoming IO-360-A3B6 installed on an M20J with a SIM.

Can you supply the timing advance schedule (as a function of MAP and rpm) for the SIM?

I note the SIM uses a wasted spark design. What is effect on spark plug life? Do you recommend iridium plugs?

Do you have any data showing performance or fuel efficiency improvements for my engine?

The reply was:

We do not recommend any spark plugs outside your standard manufacturers specs. Your engine is approved for both fixed and variable timing. The fuel efficiency and improvements are based on so many variables that we can’t give any definitive numbers. The wasted spark system should not affect the life of a standard plug.

They did not send the advance curve. I asked again for it, but have not received a reply. I’ll share it if I ever get it. 

Skip

 

I get the impression that it’s an advance curve that won’t hurt any of the engines it’s certified for, but it won’t optimize ignition  for them either.  Might be a crapshoot depending on your engine type exactly what performance changes you realize (or don’t).  Now it should start easily and require less maintenance than traditional mags, so that’s a plus.

FWIW, here’s a copy of their advance pasted from their website to Mooney space 7 months ago.  Tough to read.  The copy on Vans website is easier.  It would be really nice to have the 3 choices of advance that JetDriven suggested.  How long you think that would take to certify??

 

[McMooney]

On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 6:30 PM, McMooney said:

that's helpful, was just thinking, I have no way to test or know how to take advantage of the new surefly.

wish the documentation came with an official chart. 

from the post, i'm getting I need to learn LOP.

Quick report, nothing specific as was quick after maintenance flight.

1.  startup  hot, cold, flooded or dry almost instantaneous.  no longer scared of taxing to the fuel pumps.

literally starts as soon as you turn the key.

 

2.  constantly drains power, battery charger seems to cycle instead of just saying the battery's full.

3.  mag check, thing stumbles when switching to the sim in a mag check.  my understanding this is normal but i'm used to 2 mags and really smooth. caught my attention at altitude.

4.  egt seems lower with the sim than with the mag.  max egt was  about 5 ticks on the gauge where before it was approx. 7 or 8.

5.  1.8 hr tach flight time, 16.5 gals burned.  wasn't careful about noting power settings.  did see max of about 148kts.

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by McMooney

[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, McMooney said:

Quick report, nothing specific as was quick after maintenance flight.

1.  startup  hot, cold, flooded or dry almost instantaneous.  no scared of taxing to the fuel pump and it not starting.

thing literally starts as soon as you turn the key.

2.  constantly drains power, battery charger seems to cycle instead of just saying the battery's full.

3.  mag check, thing stumbles when switching to the sim in a mag check.  my understanding this is normal but i'm used to 2 mags and really smooth.

4.  egt seems lower with the sim than with the mag.  max egt was  about 5 ticks on the gauge where before it was approx. 7 or 8.

5.  1.8 hr tach flight time, 16.5 gals burned only info I have, wasn't really careful about noting power settings.  did see max of about 148kts.

 

So for #3, stumbling on mag check, there was something about that on the vans website.  Something like momentary stumble when switching to the sim because it doesn’t instantly start firing when powered, it takes a second to spool up or self check or whatever, so you get a quick stumble.  Did you notice more?

Edited August 13, 2019 by Ragsf15e

[McMooney]

17 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

So for #4, stumbling on mag check, there was something about that on the vans website.  Something like momentary stumble when switching to the sim because it doesn’t instantly start firing when powered, it takes a second to spool up or self check or whatever, so you get a quick stumble.  Did you notice more?

I'd say yes, the description is similar.  it's a really quick stumble, not like the engine is shutting down, more like a hiccup.

Edited August 13, 2019 by McMooney

[takair]

7 hours ago, McMooney said:

I'd say yes, the description is similar.  it's a really quick stumble, not like the engine is shutting down, more like a hiccup.

I have heard they have a software fix for that, but have not confirmed it.  Mine does the same when doing mag check on the ground.  I believe they currently have a 400mS delay.

Ref the battery, I had not experienced that.  There is a very slight drain, but my tender still goes into tending mode like it used to.  Be sure yours is going into sleep mode.  The LED should be off when everything is shut off.  How old is your battery and what kind is it.  My last few brand G batteries did not last long and would not tolerate even a slight drain.  I’ve had great luck with my latest Concorde.

[McMooney]

5 minutes ago, takair said:

I have heard they have a software fix for that, but have not confirmed it.  Mine does the same when doing mag check on the ground.  I believe they currently have a 400mS delay.

Ref the battery, I had not experienced that.  There is a very slight drain, but my tender still goes into tending mode like it used to.  Be sure yours is going into sleep mode.  The LED should be off when everything is shut off.  How old is your battery and what kind is it.  My last few brand G batteries did not last long and would not tolerate even a slight drain.  I’ve had great luck with my latest Concorde.

Id imagine it's a rather slow drain,  only noticed because I have a rather old tender  that clicks when it begins charging.  it'd click then about 2 seconds later click off. My guess it'd probably take a few weeks to drain.

[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, McMooney said:

Quick report, nothing specific as was quick after maintenance flight.

1.  startup  hot, cold, flooded or dry almost instantaneous.  no longer scared of taxing to the fuel pumps.

literally starts as soon as you turn the key.

 

2.  constantly drains power, battery charger seems to cycle instead of just saying the battery's full.

3.  mag check, thing stumbles when switching to the sim in a mag check.  my understanding this is normal but i'm used to 2 mags and really smooth. caught my attention at altitude.

4.  egt seems lower with the sim than with the mag.  max egt was  about 5 ticks on the gauge where before it was approx. 7 or 8.

5.  1.8 hr tach flight time, 16.5 gals burned.  wasn't careful about noting power settings.  did see max of about 148kts.

 

A couple other thoughts (not an expert on the Surefly, just reading a lot)... the EGT change may or may not be related.  If you don’t get above about 7000’ (depending on rpm), you won’t even get any advanced timing, so it’s just a fancy fixed mag.  If you do get up higher, then the manifold pressure will drop below the point where surefly will begin an advance curve.  Advanced ignition fires earlier.  More combustion is in the cylinder, so slightly cooler egt makes sense.  CHTs are what will get hotter.  It doesn’t seem like you have an engine monitor for all 4 cylinders, but if so, you’ll likely see some kind of CHT increase as the timing advances.  Most people I’ve read said about 10-20 degrees above what they had previously.  Again, won’t see that until you’re high enough to start the advanced timing curve.

Finally, your fuel burn isn’t going to improve any perceptible amount until you get up high where Surefly advances and then set your mixture very carefully with a full 4 cylinder engine monitor.  Likely it will only improve efficiency when lean of peak (that based off the discussion on the Vans website).

[takair]

5 hours ago, McMooney said:

Id imagine it's a rather slow drain,  only noticed because I have a rather old tender  that clicks when it begins charging.  it'd click then about 2 seconds later click off. My guess it'd probably take a few weeks to drain.

Yes, they mention that in one of the documents. They do suggest a tender if sitting for a few weeks. This would be important for those outside and not flying often. There may be other ways around it, like pulling the fuse when sitting for extended periods. 

[ArtVandelay]

Yes, they mention that in one of the documents. They do suggest a tender if sitting for a few weeks. This would be important for those outside and not flying often. There may be other ways around it, like pulling the fuse when sitting for extended periods. 

I don’t get it, why is the EI bypassing the master switch?


Tom

[Prior owner]

56 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t get it, why is the EI bypassing the master switch?


Tom

I'm guessing it's because they want to maintain a similar setup to the independent magneto ignition system- where the ignition system will function when the master bus is switched off.

[PT20J]

Minimize failure modes.

[Oscar Avalle]

Aviation Consumer in its August issue just published an article comparing Electroair and sureflight> Very interesting read.

Oscar

[McMooney]

6 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Aviation Consumer in its August issue just published an article comparing Electroair and sureflight> Very interesting read.

Oscar

sigh, pay wall.

 

hopefully this weekend i'll get nice and intimate with the surefly.   

I was thinking, can I get a field approval for a second battery?  hopefully lithium ?  

1.  would make me feel better about the system sitting around on the ramp

2.  my m20e is awfully nose heavy,  need more weight in the tail.

 

how about field approval for an on/off switch dedicated to the surefly?

Edited August 14, 2019 by McMooney

[Prior owner]

57 minutes ago, McMooney said:

sigh, pay wall.

 

hopefully this weekend i'll get nice and intimate with the surefly.   

I was thinking, can I get a field approval for a second battery?  hopefully lithium ?  

1.  would make me feel better about the system sitting around on the ramp

2.  my m20e is awfully nose heavy,  need more weight in the tail.

 

how about field approval for an on/off switch dedicated to the surefly?

Not sure if this is a great solution for you, but BatteryMinder has an aviation charging setup that includes a small solar panel to keep your battery topped off...

BatteryMinder desulfating solar charger

[ArtVandelay]

I'm guessing it's because they want to maintain a similar setup to the independent magneto ignition system- where the ignition system will function when the master bus is switched off.

Then why not have it turn off with ignition switch?
If I was to install it I would use a combination CB/switch so I can turn it off.


Tom

[takair]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Then why not have it turn off with ignition switch?
If I was to install it I would use a combination CB/switch so I can turn it off.


Tom

The ignition switch does turn it off, but they still draw a very small current for some reason.   Not entirely clear to me what it is doing, but I relate it to a non volatile memory keep alive circuit. It may be to keep in in a “fast boot” state.  Would be a good question for SureFly.

[Ragsf15e]

22 hours ago, Oscar Avalle said:

Aviation Consumer in its August issue just published an article comparing Electroair and sureflight> Very interesting read.

Oscar

What’s the gist of it?  Did they prefer one over the other?

I tried to read for myself but they won’t let me!

[DonMuncy]

They like both, but think the Electoair is slightly superior, due to higher spark voltage.

[Oscar Avalle]

18 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

What’s the gist of it?  Did they prefer one over the other?

I tried to read for myself but they won’t let me!

Indeed they like both, they still believe that there is a way to go to even get close to cars. They like the simplicity of the Surefly, but on the other hand they praised the sophistication of the electroair. From the tone of the article they seemed to be more inclined towards the latter.

[Bob_Belville]

Basic question: 

 

From the Surefly Site:

SIM4N - 4-Cylinder Non-Impulse Mag Replacement

               Replaces 4-cylinder non-impulse coupled magnetos on Lycoming & Continental engines. 4.0 lbs.

SIM4P - 4-Cylinder Impulse Coupled Mag Replacement

                The vast majority of 4-Cylinder applications will replace the impulse coupled magneto. 4.4 lbs.

 

So, what about replacing left mag with SoS (shower of sparks)? I'd assume I need the "P" but I don't want to order the wrong model.

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Basic question: 

 

From the Surefly Site:

SIM4N - 4-Cylinder Non-Impulse Mag Replacement

               Replaces 4-cylinder non-impulse coupled magnetos on Lycoming & Continental engines. 4.0 lbs.

SIM4P - 4-Cylinder Impulse Coupled Mag Replacement

                The vast majority of 4-Cylinder applications will replace the impulse coupled magneto. 4.4 lbs.

 

So, what about replacing left mag with SoS (shower of sparks)? I'd assume I need the "P" but I don't want to order the wrong model.

I was wondering this too.  Definitely worth calling them, I’m sure they’ll have the answer... I guess I was thinking the N version, but now I’m not sure.

[Yetti]

On 8/12/2019 at 10:14 PM, Ragsf15e said:

I get the impression that it’s an advance curve that won’t hurt any of the engines it’s certified for, but it won’t optimize ignition  for them either.  Might be a crapshoot depending on your engine type exactly what performance changes you realize (or don’t).  Now it should start easily and require less maintenance than traditional mags, so that’s a plus.

FWIW, here’s a copy of their advance pasted from their website to Mooney space 7 months ago.  Tough to read.  The copy on Vans website is easier.  It would be really nice to have the 3 choices of advance that JetDriven suggested.  How long you think that would take to certify??

 

In this day and age, you would think they would have a connection to monitor the advance and display on a screen.   And of course record it with other engine data.