charlesual

Surefly electronic ignition question

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Any pireps on the surefly electronic ignition for IO360 duel mag? Did you replace left or right mag? Impulse or non-impulse? Better starting? Fuel burn? Installation issues? TIA,

Charlie

 

 

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Any pireps on the surefly electronic ignition for IO360 duel mag? Did you replace left or right mag? Impulse or non-impulse? Better starting? Fuel burn? Installation issues? TIA,
Charlie
 
 
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I don’t have a surefly ignition but I do have an electroair one on my O360 A1D. It starts the same way then before. Runs smoother and fuel consumption is down by half a gallon per hour. Easy install, no mayor issues. Overall I like it.


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Awesome! Did you do the left or right mag? Impulse or no?


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I'm glad to see sure-fly is moving on I like the electronic ignition but then I'm an electrical engineer.  I really wish e-mag was this far along.

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Everyone keeps talking about Surefly and E-mag, but Electroair has had an STCed electronic ignition for more than 5 years.  And like with Oscar Avalle's experience, I've never heard a negative account of it.

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If there is an experimental forum, that is the place to ask about EI systems, it’s still too rare in the certified world.


Tom

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1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

If there is an experimental forum, that is the place to ask about EI systems, it’s still too rare in the certified world.


Tom

An awful lot of RV'ers use EI (So the VAF forums is the place to check) and in some cases full EFII - I have twin PMags on my RV-9A and from what I can see, they're virtually identical in function to the SIM's, with the exception of the PMag's having their own generator. I couldn't be happier. Coupled with the Rotec TBI, it usually starts within a blade or two cold and instantly when hot.

Edited by KRviator

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I was reading the literature on the Surefly site and the Mooney is listed as a model that is approved for the advanced timing feature. It says that you set the “base timing” from the data plate, but what isn’t very clear is whether the unit advances timing above that value. It clearly does move the timing between TDC and the data plate value. I’m curious about that...

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In the case of an alternator failure, wouldn’t the Surefly system drain your battery awfully fast?  Or if the mag cuts out with an alternator failure, flying on 1 mag in a 4cyl is just one fouled plug away from disaster.  In these circumstances, Surefly might make a bad situation much worse. Alternator failure is not just a theoretical concern - I have experienced it, luckily not in IMC.  

These are my reservations.  Convince me I’m wrong! ;)

Edited by DXB

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In the case of an alternator failure, wouldn’t the Surefly system drain your battery awfully fast?  Or if the mag cuts out with an alternator failure, flying on 1 mag in a 4cyl is just one fouled plug away from disaster.  In these circumstances, Surefly might make a bad situation much worse. Alternator failure is not just a theoretical concern - I have experienced it, luckily not in IMC.  
These are my reservations.  Convince me I’m wrong! 


Yes, that is why the STC from electroair just replaces one magneto. The second magneto continues working as a back up in the background. I would not feel comfortable to have both magnetos replaced, unless I have a good back up I place.


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10 minutes ago, DXB said:

In the case of an alternator failure, wouldn’t the Surefly system drain your battery awfully fast?  Or if the mag cuts out with an alternator failure, flying on 1 mag in a 4cyl is just one fouled plug away from disaster.  In these circumstances, Surefly might make a bad situation much worse. Alternator failure is not just a theoretical concern - I have experienced it, luckily not in IMC.  

These are my reservations.  Convince me I’m wrong! ;)

According to the Surefly specs, it draws half an amp. That’s 22 hours with an 11 AH battery (OK, it’s not quite that simple and there are other loads, but the point is it’S not much of an electrical load).

Skip

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43 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said:

I was reading the literature on the Surefly site and the Mooney is listed as a model that is approved for the advanced timing feature. It says that you set the “base timing” from the data plate, but what isn’t very clear is whether the unit advances timing above that value. It clearly does move the timing between TDC and the data plate value. I’m curious about that...

Base timing on an IO-360 would be 20 or 25 degrees BTDC per the data plate. According to Surefly specs, it can advance up to 38 degrees BTDC. 

Skip

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There is a lot of nice things being said on the COPA site about the SureFly.  They are also saying that it makes hot starts a non-issue.

Someone also stated that SureFly Aero is working on a STC for replacing both mags.  It would require dual electrical systems, which makes the Cirrus people happy as they already have dual alternators and batteries.

 

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Now I’m curious how fast an e-ignition can drain a battery. I can see it being a problem if I was doing a lot of hard IFR or an Atlantic crossing but not so much for the mostly day VFR I do. Also, with a backup magneto, I’d be pretty comfortable producing enough power to get on the ground even if my alternator, battery and one cylinder went cold. Sounds like the benefit of better ignition, less foul plugs, easier starting, better LOP make me want to drop the hammer on a relatively cheap upgrade. ($1250)


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18 minutes ago, PT20J said:

According to the Surefly specs, it draws half an amp. That’s 22 hours with an 11 AH battery (OK, it’s not quite that simple and there are other loads, but the point is it’S not much of an electrical load).

Skip

Thx- it’s back under consideration ;)

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1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Base timing on an IO-360 would be 20 or 25 degrees BTDC per the data plate. According to Surefly specs, it can advance up to 38 degrees BTDC. 

Skip

Yeah, I took that statement to be a bit ambiguous, as it could mean that it will advance up to 38 degrees if the base timing is 38 degrees...(although I haven't seen a certified engine that has base timing that high).

I'm finding it really hard to believe that the feds signed off on an ignition advance 13 degrees over the engine manufacturer's specification. 13 degrees is significant...

But It's still nowhere near what a car will advance to. I would expect greater gains in efficiency than are being claimed during cruise, but perhaps that's as good as it gets with a low compression air cooled engine turning at such a low rpm...?

Regardless, when it comes time to change my left mag I might go this route. Not sure.

At that price, if it had an integral permanent magnet alternator, I would not hesitate. 

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Atleast another week before I get to try it out.

 -- maintenance is removing the shower of sparks and left mag,  think i'm going to miss the buzzing sound when starting.

 -- going to have to come up with a nice long XC to test the timing advance.  Wish I had thought to log before installing the surefly.

Edited by McMooney

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19 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Everyone keeps talking about Surefly and E-mag, but Electroair has had an STCed electronic ignition for more than 5 years.  And like with Oscar Avalle's experience, I've never heard a negative account of it.

yes electoair has been around for sometime now.

However, the surefly and e-mag are very compact units without all the extra wiring harness.  Just add a power wire and you are done and timing is simple.  That is what I like aobut it.

 

E-mag to me is the bets approach because of the built in alternator to power it if you lose the ship alternator.

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A couple of thoughts ref.some concerns above based on my experience with the SureFly with the advance activated.  The mapping of the advance is such that significant advance only occurs at lower power settings, thus maintaining the detonation margin.  I’m sure the testing and/or analysis of the advance was part of the delay in getting advance approval.  It is also apparently the reason turbos are not heat approved, so it seems SureFly and the FAA are doing their homework and not just signing off on it.

Regarding failure of the alternator, I gave this some thought prior to installation.  When our magneto fails, we are simply left with the other one, typically no warning at all.  In the case of the SureFly, when the alternator fails, you should essentially have an additional 30 minutes of battery power to get yourself on the ground.  This is why a load analysis is done and it is the reason we are supposed to check battery capacity annually.  Should the battery run down, the other magneto will handle the load adequately, our bigger problem is lack of radios.  As for a further fouled plug, I would suggest we are now a few failures deep and the 30 minutes warning should be adequate to get on th ground in most cases.  I agree it makes the electrical system more critical, but if maintained, I would argue it is no worse than some of the magnetos we routinely rely on and see fail.  I think I am more likely to lose my remaining magneto than I am to have the scenario above.

Knock on wood, hope I haven’t just jinxed myself.

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Atleast another week before I get to try it out.
 -- maintenance is removing the shower of sparks and left mag,  think i'm going to miss the buzzing sound when starting.
 -- going to have to come up with a nice long XC to test the timing advance.  Wish I had thought to log before installing the surefly.


Are you replacing the left or right magneto? Is it an impulse or non-impulse? Looking forward to a pirep. Tia,
Charlie


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8 minutes ago, charlesual said:

 


Are you replacing the left or right magneto? Is it an impulse or non-impulse? Looking forward to a pirep. Tia,
Charlie


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I'm replacing the left mag and as I have shower of sparks it's non impulse.

really excited about getting some fuel savings at altitude, if I can squeeze out close to 1 gal/hr it'd really help with one of my normal trips.

would make it possibly a nonstop flight on favorable wind days.

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On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 1:05 PM, McMooney said:

I'm replacing the left mag and as I have shower of sparks it's non impulse.

really excited about getting some fuel savings at altitude, if I can squeeze out close to 1 gal/hr it'd really help with one of my normal trips.

would make it possibly a nonstop flight on favorable wind days.

well, turns out they replaced the right mag.  something about being able to start  the plane in case of failure.  unfortunately, don't think i'd fly if I started with only one mag.

haven't had a chance to fly it but man it sounds good.20190808_172038.thumb.jpg.93cff2cc9a34095d79bb73ae33bf2381.jpg

pre req pictures,

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20190802_143915_1565213498299.jpg

20190807_162933_1565213498207.jpg

Edited by McMooney
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Need to get your bird some fancy colorful siliconed ignition wires to match the new fancy technology!

:)

-a-

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