2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[gsxrpilot]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

With no information about what happened, we can't speculate about potential causes or learn anything . . .

I agree that there does seem to be a double standard here . . . . "Those we know" vs. "strangers who we read about on the interwebz"?

I'd love to be able to weigh in, but as a Board Member of the Mooney Caravan organization, and with an ongoing investigation, I'm just not permitted to do so.

[RogueOne]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd love to be able to weigh in, but as a Board Member of the Mooney Caravan organization, and with an ongoing investigation, I'm just not permitted to do so.

Totally respect that Paul. I can wait to hear the accurate info. Just glad all are unharmed. 

[RogueOne]

Look forward to video

[Hank]

This thread has piqued all of our curiosity! Airplanes "touching" in flight is a disconcerting idea, but I am thankful that there were no injuries. And we were just having a discussion about the relative safety of the Caravan versus Fisk arrival. My own Lake Parker route into SnF was educational, so many planes doing so many things, often only tangentially related to the published procedures / NOTAMs and arrival at an airport . . . . .

As far as being able to fly both aircraft home after the show, this is Oshkosh, everything is available! The Previous Owner of my plane landed gear up at Sun n Fun, and was able to get it home on a ferry permit; Osh has many more resources available, as it's the end-all / be-all aviation site. [He was cut off on the runway, went around and was directed by Tower to not return to the Lake and hold but make right traffic and land on the "wide runway" but to keep his speed up for the following P-51. The only way to keep the speed up in a C model is to keep the gear up . . . So the Mustang had to go around anyway.   ]

[xcrmckenna]

If it'd been two Cirrus aircraft two chutes would've been popped resulting in 2 hull losses.  That would have changed it from an incident to accident.

And the poor bonanza pilots would have been wishing they had chutes or been in a Mooney:)


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[Yetti]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd love to be able to weigh in, but as a Board Member of the Mooney Caravan organization, and with an ongoing investigation, I'm just not permitted to do so.

 I can write the official report already and I was not even there:

As always we appreciate our partners in resolution of this situation Mooney International, FAA, Joe's Paint and Body.

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Yetti

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

If it'd been two Cirrus aircraft two chutes would've been popped resulting in 2 hull losses.  That would have changed it from an incident to accident.

Who cares about the classification of the event, or if the two aircraft would have been write-offs.
rhe important thing to note is this, were it not for the overtaking pilot seeing the other plane at the last second, AND a healthy dose of luck, there likely would have been 3 dead people, along with two hull losses.  

[Tom]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I agree that there does seem to be a double standard here . . . . "Those we know" vs. "strangers who we read about on the interwebz"?

Paging the safety mod (even if not in the safety forum).

There's a transparent double standard here when it comes to safety discussions.  I'm sorry if I lack the requisite tact or demeanor to be more effective in promoting at least this subject, but I submit that my logic is sound.

Where an "our type" vs "their type" incident occurs, an overwhelming "it's their type" bias occurs where the sarcasm (against "their type") really distracts from lessons to learn. Sarcasm as they say should be a garnish, not the main course.  Now even still when an "our type only" incident occurs...the "their type" jabs erupt.  With lots of "likes."  What kind of serious safety culture is this?  Our type is literally a dying breed yet still the "their type suck" sentiment still comes out....as the other type expands in numbers.  A real Freudian defense or something.

Moreover...on the "those we know vs strangers we don't" double-standard:
A fellow pilot can be laid up critical in a hospital and people will speculate away; a relative fender bender occurs and all hands are to keep quiet for fear of a certificate action.  Really???

"Real" pilots who know how to act "properly" don't need a chute nonsense spews out while one of our kind is laid up critical ill in the precise circumstance where a chute invariably would have greatly increased the chances of walking away from the incident.  Where is the chorus of the "chutes are for people who can't fly properly" when people are laid up in the hospital?  Well, they're on this forum saying that pilots who operate properly don't need a chute, and they're getting multiple likes.  What absolute nonsense.

I'm sorry that my advocacy for chutes, tone, whatever is deemed unwelcome, redundant, over the top...but all the chutes-are-for-pussies posts continue to flow out with multiple likes.  This double-standard stuff needs to stop.  It does nothing to engender a safety culture. 

[carusoam]

@irishpilot I think you are being paged... ^^^^

-a-

[jetdriven]

Well said @Tom   
people were anti-seatbelt and anti- airbag before people accepted that technology saves lives. 
I rented a Subaru the other day. In addition to radar interval cruise control, it notifies you and gives push back when departing your lane, alerts you of approaching cars when backing up, and gently reminds you when the car ahead has began moving again.  
My wife said God all of these constant alerts are so annoying. I said how about you don’t back up into oncoming traffic, stray outside your traffic lane, and stop posting on Mooneyspace at stoplights, oblivious to the fact the car ahead is now gone. 

It’s like the car is teaching you to be a better person. Stay in your lane, drive the speed limit, don’t follow too closely, don’t back up Over stroller mommies, Pay your taxes, Don’t cheat on your wife. Eat more plants. Use less plastic. Be a better person. Subaru. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by jetdriven

[gsengle]

However normalization of risk is real. What happened when we put seatbelts in cars? We drove faster...

 

Second, no one type has a monopoly on seatbelts or airbags or even chutes. These add ons are relatively separate from the basic design of an airframe which will have its own safety pros and cons.

 

And no design can save you from hazardous attitudes...

 

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[Yetti]

You are trying to imply safety culture into a place where that concept is not well known.

[pwnel]

On 7/29/2019 at 3:46 PM, KSMooniac said:

There was some touching, but I'd wait for the final report before drawing any conclusions about who touched who. Let the process play out, please.

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This sounds exactly like the Weinstein / Epstein defense ......   (hat, coat, door...)

[MooneyMitch]

14 minutes ago, pwnel said:

This sounds exactly like the Weinstein / Epstein defense ......   (hat, coat, door...)

Jocularity..... more please! 

[ragedracer1977]

7 hours ago, Yetti said:

 

Removed

[KSMooniac]

This sounds exactly like the Weinstein / Epstein defense ......   (hat, coat, door...)

I'm not sure what that means, but I wouldn't defend either of those people.

As a personal example, 21 years ago I was in a traffic accident. Camaro coming opposite direction on an icy road lost control, swapped ends while crossing 3 lanes of traffic and hit the front end of my truck with the ass end of his car. We came to a stop in my lane. The deputy started writing his accident report without even interviewing me, and then asked me to sign it, saying I rear-ended the Camaro. I had to point out that the Camaro was originally traveling in the opposite direction and he didn't believe me, then poked his head into the ambulance to ask that driver which way he was headed... Then tore up his report and started over.

That didn't stop the local news from putting us on TV while saying "the driver of this truck lost control and slammed into the back of the car" later that evening either...

Wait for the full report to come out. Thankfully both pilots can be/were interviewed.

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[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Well said @Tom   
people were anti-seatbelt and anti- airbag before people accepted that technology saves lives. 
I rented a Subaru the other day. In addition to radar interval cruise control, it notifies you and gives push back when departing your lane, alerts you of approaching cars when backing up, and gently reminds you when the car ahead has began moving again.  
My wife said God all of these constant alerts are so annoying. I said how about you don’t back up into oncoming traffic, stray outside your traffic lane, and stop posting on Mooneyspace at stoplights, oblivious to the fact the car ahead is now gone. 

It’s like the car is teaching you to be a better person. Stay in your lane, drive the speed limit, don’t follow too closely, don’t back up Over stroller mommies, Pay your taxes, Don’t cheat on your wife. Eat more plants. Use less plastic. Be a better person. Subaru. 

I don't know what you're talking about, my Subaru is an 05 WRX STi.  There's no safety culture there 

[xcrmckenna]

Being there and knowing what happened, this thread and the way people that were not there assuming they know what happened. Let’s me know I shouldn’t assume on any crash.

It’s making me think about what’s going on over at Beechtalk and everyone saying why that Baron crashed and killed three people..... If you were not there but know what happened please send me the winning powerball numbers for Saturday.

You can speculate all you want, I’m in the camp of asking myself what could I do that got me in the situations pilots get into that bend metal or worse kill themselves and others. And try to break my chain of events from getting there. But to say it’s how it was along with saying you weren’t even there makes you look foolish.

I don’t plan on flying the FISK anytime soon, the caravan is pretty much the only way my plane will get to Oshkosh.


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[Becca]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Who cares about the classification of the event, or if the two aircraft would have been write-offs.
rhe important thing to note is this, were it not for the overtaking pilot seeing the other plane at the last second, AND a healthy dose of luck, there likely would have been 3 dead people, along with two hull losses.  

This.

I don’t know what happened though I’ve heard rumors.  But even if it was a surface scratch (and it was indeed more than that for those of us who saw the two aircraft and are at least a little surprised they were permitted to fly out), a few inches different or a few more kts airspeed and there could have been fatalities.  Let’s remember this is an aircraft touching an aircraft IN FLIGHT.   This is a “thereby the grace of god” situation not a testimony to Mooney structures vs parachutes.  

Even though I am the initiator of the “fear of Fisk,” I don’t think this invalidates the arguments for the benefits of the caravan (though I still dispute that Fisk is dangerous or something to be scared of or that the caravan is somehow magically safer than Fisk)... I hope that pending the investigation there is a full debrief of training, procedures, etc to incorporate lessons learned and make it a safer event and those lessons learned are shared with other mass arrivals rather than forgotten or swept under the “no comment” rug or it will happen again before training and planning for next years arribal begins.  I wasn’t a participant of the caravan but I know the caravan has a thorough debrief scheduled immediately after they fly and I hope this was thoroughly debriefed then while it was fresh in everyone’s mind - a debrief is worthless unless you discuss what went wrong in addition to what went right.  Most accidents are Swiss cheese problems, lots of small mistakes alone aren’t a problem until they align to a big problem.  Nothing we do in aviation is risk-free - it’s how we learn when something happens that makes us safer.  

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Becca

[Yetti]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

With no information about what happened, we can't speculate about potential causes or learn anything . . .

 

Actually we can learn lots through triangulation.    I have already learned one scenario is not valid.   I could keep going and offer up another theory and see if that one gets rejected also.   This is why people get their computers and email hacked.

Even the official statement will be vague and not provide lots of details.

This thread is why it is not a real safety culture.  A real safety culture would have had a safety stand down.   Everyone would have been briefed on what was known at the time, how to proceed safely based on information available.  not "rumors were circulating the whole week"  This should have happened within a day and a week later there would have been an update.   Safety cannot exist when people are told to keep their mouths closed to protect people's reputation.   You cannot have safety without everyone participating.   Also Safety is not our license to operate our planes.   I have worked in an industry where small towns can disappear off a map.   That is where safety is your license to operate.   /soap box off/

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

Paging the safety mod (even if not in the safety forum).

There's a transparent double standard here when it comes to safety discussions.  I'm sorry if I lack the requisite tact or demeanor to be more effective in promoting at least this subject, but I submit that my logic is sound.

Where an "our type" vs "their type" incident occurs, an overwhelming "it's their type" bias occurs where the sarcasm (against "their type") really distracts from lessons to learn. Sarcasm as they say should be a garnish, not the main course.  Now even still when an "our type only" incident occurs...the "their type" jabs erupt.  With lots of "likes."  What kind of serious safety culture is this?  Our type is literally a dying breed yet still the "their type suck" sentiment still comes out....as the other type expands in numbers.  A real Freudian defense or something.

Moreover...on the "those we know vs strangers we don't" double-standard:
A fellow pilot can be laid up critical in a hospital and people will speculate away; a relative fender bender occurs and all hands are to keep quiet for fear of a certificate action.  Really???

"Real" pilots who know how to act "properly" don't need a chute nonsense spews out while one of our kind is laid up critical ill in the precise circumstance where a chute invariably would have greatly increased the chances of walking away from the incident.  Where is the chorus of the "chutes are for people who can't fly properly" when people are laid up in the hospital?  Well, they're on this forum saying that pilots who operate properly don't need a chute, and they're getting multiple likes.  What absolute nonsense.

I'm sorry that my advocacy for chutes, tone, whatever is deemed unwelcome, redundant, over the top...but all the chutes-are-for-pussies posts continue to flow out with multiple likes.  This double-standard stuff needs to stop.  It does nothing to engender a safety culture. 

You take yourself and others way to seriously in an environment where there is no way to judge context. Lighten up, disengage...whatever it takes to get a fresh picture. If there are actually people here who think Cirri are lousy aircraft they are a very small minority. What’s more likely is there is little bit of silly interbrandname (new word) rivalry taking place. If you think you’re seeing actual malice, then you’re either over thinking things or you’ve never experienced actual malice... 

No one has Any information about this incident other than it happened. There’s almost no seed crystal by which to generate a hypothesis. No fuel for speculation.

The notion that the interbrandname ribbing (childish as it may be) has anything to do with the “safety culture” of this board is patently ridiculous.  I can’t speak to what the “safety culture” of this board should or shouldn’t be, but would submit that the safety record of this board (which has experienced some tragedies) is far better than the general GA population. Regardless of the “safety culture”, I hope the safety record continues or improves.

I think chutes are a great idea. However I’ve been flying in little airplanes for all of my 45 years. I’ve had plenty of time to get comfortable with the idea of knowing and trusting my equipment to mitigate risk.  I’ve also become comfortable with training for an unlikely failure. If I could snap my fingers and have a chute I would but I wouldn’t change airframes for that reason alone. For me it’s a feature with a benefit amongst many that I might consider during a purchase. Some have gotten religious about it to the point that they shop for a chute and consider the features of the plane after.  I think that’s a fine approach but it’s not for everyone. I don’t know if you’re waiting for everyone on the board to agree with you with regards to chute installation but I’ve often wondered why you care so much… And why you’re so sensitive about it. 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Shadrach

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, Tom said:

 Now even still when an "our type only" incident occurs...the "their type" jabs erupt.  With lots of "likes."  

 

Tom, I suppose you're talking about me because I cracked the joke about popping parachutes.  Sorry to offend.

I have always maintained that the Cirrus is an amazing aircraft using cutting edge technology.  The parachute is an incredible safety enhancement.

I've also always maintained that it is Cirrus owners that I tend to dislike, not their aircraft.

[ZuluZulu]

I can understand why those of you who "know" are choosing not to say what you know, but I humbly suggest it only fuels speculation to announce that you know but won't be sharing further.  It's human nature to keep pushing and speculating until the secret finally comes out.

[201er]

11 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

I can understand why those of you who "know" are choosing not to say what you know, but I humbly suggest it only fuels speculation to announce that you know but won't be sharing further.  It's human nature to keep pushing and speculating until the secret finally comes out.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Tom said:

Paging the safety mod (even if not in the safety forum).

 

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

@irishpilot I think you are being paged... ^^^^

-a-

I’m pretty sure Irish moderates the safety forum to promote safety. I think he’s highly qualified for that role among many other things. Asking him to play hall monitor in this part of the forum over a non event is a waste of resources.