ADS-B and GPS Panel Upgrade Advice - 1970 M20E

[SkyTrekker]

I have a panel upgrade scheduled for August, and am looking for input on layout.  The main drivers for an upgrade at this time are 1) ADS-B out compliance, and 2) I'm currently working on my instrument rating and want to utilize RNAV approaches.  

I'd wanted to do just one panel upgrade, replacing steam gauges with glass and installing an autopilot at the same time, but my situation is that I have to put off the final upgrades until a later time.  Since I'm planning on a second significant panel change at some point in the future, I want to minimize moves and changes during this round.

Upgrade elements:

• IFD540 - Prefer Avydine's relatively open approach to integration compatibility.
• AXP322 - IFD integration; Remote mount.
• PMA450B - Could have left this for round two, but want Bluetooth integration with the Ipad and phone, as well as audio alerts from the IFD and AV-20.
• Insight G2 - Engine has 250 hours SMOH. Want to maximize engine health/SMOH, and run LOP if spread allows. Will also appreciate the improved fuel consumption tracking and range estimation.
• AV-20S - Backup AI to mitigate primary failure. AoA and G-Meter for more awareness of performance envelopes.

Here is an image of how I'm planning to organize the new gear.  Have also considered locating the PMA450 above the IFD.

Any input on this layout and/or my overall thinking?  Hoping to tap into the collective brain power of MS!   

[carusoam]

Sounds like a good plan...

one detail to look into...

AV20 AOAi seems to not be working as expected... as reported around here a few times...

There are a few AOAi(s) that have been installed in Mooneys with much better results...

Best regards,

-a-

[SkyTrekker]

Will look into that. Thanks!

[SkyTrekker]

I hadn't realized that there were persistent issues reported about the AoA indicator on the AV-20.  After reading around, it seems that there is a total of zero people reporting that it works as expected/hoped. So I'm rethinking that piece and will probably remove it from the upgrade lineup. I use Foreflight with a Stratus 2S in the cockpit, so in the event of a primary AI failure, I have a backup in Foreflight. 

Any opinions on whether to locate the PMA450 in the position of the current audio panel vs. over the IFD? I'm guessing there is little if any impact of installing it in one position vs. the other. 

 

 

[carusoam]

SkyT,

Do you intend to use this panel for IFR flight?

You deserve a better plan B for a failed AI than a collection of fine portable devices...

What happens when the stratus falls off the window at altitude, in the bumps?

What happens when the iPad, plug falls out of the socket and your first hint is the iPad shutting down...?

My love for portable devices has faded over the years... they fail for simple things... without a lot of warning...

Some people have more significant mounts and power supplies for their portable devices...

Worn TCs make crappy back-up AIs... they are hard to follow in bumpy weather...

Hypothetically thinking... Lets say, your in the bumps in IMC... You vac pump throws a blade... what happens next... what brings you to the ground safely...? 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

The AOA is worthless on that unit. However, the AI might be reliable. I’d ask @gsxrpilot to see if his problems went away when he moved the unit off the angled portion of his panel. 

[Bob_Belville]

The CYA 100 AoA is a relatively inexpensive stand alone AoA. Installation is straight forward as is calibration. I've had mine about 5 years and am very happy with it. 

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/aoacya100.php

[gsxrpilot]

I think your plan is pretty solid. Just put stuff in now and then rearrange the panel better when you do the final install of glass and autopilot.

So the location of the audio panel doesn't matter at this point. I'd put it wherever it's cheapest to put it.

The jury is still out for me on the AV20S. I haven't relocated it to a straight position yet so it's still pretty worthless in my panel. I have a panel upgrade coming in August as well and will likely relocate it then. I think Brian Lloyd has one as well and while he's commented that the AoA is junk, you might check in with him on the AI portion. PM me for contact details.

I agree with @Bob_Belville that the CYA100 is a great little unit and for an AoA is very cost effective. I had one in my M20C and it was excellent.

I mostly agree with @carusoam regarding relying on portable devices... but one note. With the IFD540's new software, the Stratus is no longer needed. Of course this assumes you still have power to the IFD, but the integration with ForeFlight is so good now that my Stratus hasn't left the house this year. I do believe my iPad is a good worst case backup with my iPhone backing it up as well.

I know that Avidyne is running a special where they include the AXP322 remote for free with the IFD540. But I'd at least investigate the L3 NGT9000 remote as well. Talk to @Avionics Source about any deals for that combo. If the NGT9000 isn't viable, think about adding the SkyTrax100 to your install for ADSB in as well.

Just my $0.02

[Vno]

This is not too important but if that is a DME unit on the lower right I'd find out the cost to remove that also. With the Avidyne unit and the way GA is going you will probably never use that unit again. Unless you have an XXX/DME approach that will be routinely flown. It may not be valuable space but it looks better without all those extra unused pieces in the airplane. I wish I had taken mine out when I upgraded my panel last year.

Brian

[SkyTrekker]

Appreciate all of the thoughtful input, here. Thanks!

@carusoam, Good point. I'll revisit what I'm comfortable with as my backup in the case of an AI failure.

@Bob_Belville, Checked out the CYA 100 and watched a video.  Looks like a god solution.

@gsxrpilot, re: "With the IFD540's new software, the Stratus is no longer needed", can you elaborate? Since I'm planning going with the bundled AXP322, wouldn't I still need the Stratus to see ADS-B traffic in Foreflight? I'll look again at the NGT9000, but since I'm already getting the ADS-B out capability "for free" with the bundled AXP322, spending $5k on that to replace the Stratus for ADS-B in (which is working well) is a stretch for me. Could be I'm missing something here, though.

@Vno, I'd originally thought to pull the DME, but I read about those few approaches that still use DME distance fixes. Decided to keep it in place until I complete my IFR rating. Or are you suggesting that managing that without a DME instrument is a non-issue (assuming I encounter one from time to time)? Maybe I'm being over-concerned.

Thanks again for the comments...very helpful.

-Sia

 

[gsxrpilot]

Yes, you will need an ADSB IN source. Avidyne offers several options. I installed the IFD540 + AXP322 + SkyTrax100. The SkyTrax is the ADSB IN and puts traffic and weather on the IFD540 screen. It also outputs the same traffic and weather to ForeFlight over the built in IFD540 wifi. It looks like the SkyTrax100 has a retail price of $2500. You might get a discount on that. It looks like if you buy the IFD550, Avidyne will throw in both the AXP322 and the SkyTrax100, but that's $5500 more than the 540. 

I like the NGT9000 because it's a dual band ADSB in/out solution. The SkyTrax is only a single band IN receiver. 

I should sell you my SkyTrax and go buy the NGT9000 but that might be a bit much for me to bite off this summer with all the other stuff already scheduled.

[SkyTrekker]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yes, you will need an ADSB IN source. Avidyne offers several options. I installed the IFD540 + AXP322 + SkyTrax100. The SkyTrax is the ADSB IN and puts traffic and weather on the IFD540 screen. It also outputs the same traffic and weather to ForeFlight over the built in IFD540 wifi. It looks like the SkyTrax100 has a retail price of $2500. You might get a discount on that. It looks like if you buy the IFD550, Avidyne will throw in both the AXP322 and the SkyTrax100, but that's $5500 more than the 540. 

I like the NGT9000 because it's a dual band ADSB in/out solution. The SkyTrax is only a single band IN receiver. 

I should sell you my SkyTrax and go buy the NGT9000 but that might be a bit much for me to bite off this summer with all the other stuff already scheduled.

Got it. That makes good sense.  Probably not going to be able to swing an extra $5k for the IFD550 OR the NGT9000 right now. So yes, you should sell me your SkyTrax. 

I guess I'll make do with my Stratus ADS-B in for now and figure out the rest during the "final" upgrade, whenever that happens. 

[MinneMooney]

11 minutes ago, SkyTrekker said:

Got it. That makes good sense.  Probably not going to be able to swing an extra $5k for the IFD550 OR the NGT9000 right now. So yes, you should sell me your SkyTrax. 

I guess I'll make do with my Stratus ADS-B in for now and figure out the rest during the "final" upgrade, whenever that happens. 

Right now, Chase at Avionics Source shows the IFD540 for $12995 and the NGT9000 for an additional $3000. Not sure if the remote NGT9000 is an option at that price but you may want to check with him.

[SkyTrekker]

21 hours ago, MinneMooney said:

Right now, Chase at Avionics Source shows the IFD540 for $12995 and the NGT9000 for an additional $3000. Not sure if the remote NGT9000 is an option at that price but you may want to check with him.

Wasn't aware of that offer, thanks for pointing it out.  Will have to consider that.

[gsxrpilot]

I don't ever buy avionics of any kind without talking to Chase at @Avionics Source. If there's a deal to be had, Chase will let you know. 

[SkyTrekker]

@gsxrpilotwill-do. 

[Vno]

On 6/26/2019 at 7:37 PM, SkyTrekker said:

@Vno, I'd originally thought to pull the DME, but I read about those few approaches that still use DME distance fixes. Decided to keep it in place until I complete my IFR rating. Or are you suggesting that managing that without a DME instrument is a non-issue (assuming I encounter one from time to time)? Maybe I'm being over-concerned.

Thanks again for the comments...very helpful.

-Sia

 

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/air-traffic-services-brief-use-of-gps-in-lieu-of-dme-adf

For me, in the area I fly (New England and East Coast of USA) it really isn't a concern. Here is the first article I pulled up on using GPS to replace DME. In most cases the GPS can be used in lieu of it. I'd have it out mainly for aesthetic reasons. (I wish I pulled mine already.) I know that for my operations I can use the GPS in lieu of the DME for the approaches I fly. If there were a situation where I could not, then on that day that XXX/DME approach just wouldn't be flown. I never HAVE to get anywhere while flying GA. I had a alternator fail in flight last year and I shut off the DME to shed the load on the battery. I haven't turned it on since. (25+ hours since that event).  Sounds like you have the right idea about it. Good luck.

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Vno said:

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/air-traffic-services-brief-use-of-gps-in-lieu-of-dme-adf

For me, in the area I fly (New England and East Coast of USA) it really isn't a concern. Here is the first article I pulled up on using GPS to replace DME. In most cases the GPS can be used in lieu of it. I'd have it out mainly for aesthetic reasons. (I wish I pulled mine already.) I know that for my operations I can use the GPS in lieu of the DME for the approaches I fly. If there were a situation where I could not, then on that day that XXX/DME approach just wouldn't be flown. I never HAVE to get anywhere while flying GA. I had a alternator fail in flight last year and I shut off the DME to shed the load on the battery. I haven't turned it on since. (25+ hours since that event).  Sounds like you have the right idea about it. Good luck.

Definitely agree.  No DME required if you’re using an IFR gps.  Any approach that is /DME and is loaded in the gps database can just be flown using the gps for DME.  In fact, you can use gps to substitute for DME to navigate to other fixes as well as long as they are in the database.

You can actually use your ifr gps for primary guidance on all your approaches all the way to the final approach fix.  From the FAF to the MAP, you need to use a localizer based navaid as primary lateral guidance if on an ils or loc approach.  If on a vor you can continue to use gps, but just monitor the vor lateral guidance.  In either case, you continue to use your ifr gps for DME.

 You won’t need the DME at all.  Now that doesn’t mean it’s free to take out or worth taking out, but in the end, you won’t need it.

[SkyTrekker]

Thanks @Vno and @Ragsf15e. I'm getting the same guidance from other sources, too. I'm planning to retire the DME.

[McMooney]

I kept my DME, I find it comes in handy on a number of approaches,  not necessary but handy.

[SkyTrekker]

@McMooney. Dang, just when I thought it was unanimous to remove the DME.  

I do think I'll end up removing it. A few less instrument connections, shed a couple pounds of weight, simplify the panel. Vs probably using it a handful of times ever.

Spoke to the shop today. Equipment is getting ordered over the next couple of days.  Dropping her off for the upgrade at the end of July. 

I tell you, though, with an IFD540, G2, AV-20, and PMA450B going into my mostly original panel, it's probably going to take me a year to get proficient with everything! 

[EricJ]

Coming in a little late, but I'd suggest a G5 to replace your HSI and/or AI.   Can't tell what autopilot you have, but a G5 HSI will automatically provide an AI backup (it's a simple switch to reconfigured it in-flight from an HSI to a PFD), and will integrate well with the IFD540.

 

[SkyTrekker]

@EricJ, thanks for the input. I'd love to add a G5 to my setup, but glass is going to have to wait for round two, unless my HSI fails or needs an overhaul before then.

I don't have an autopilot, either (other than the PC wing leveler, which works flawlessly). AP is going to have to be in round two as well. 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I for one, think you've got a good plan. And certainly ditch the DME. It doesn't do anything the IFD540 can't do better and easier.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Coming in a little late, but I'd suggest a G5 to replace your HSI and/or AI.   Can't tell what autopilot you have, but a G5 HSI will automatically provide an AI backup (it's a simple switch to reconfigured it in-flight from an HSI to a PFD), and will integrate well with the IFD540.

 

Anyone know if the stc will allow this?  Or does it specify hsi or AI?