Trade offs between an F and J model

[SantosDumont]

The only thing I wish my F had was 6 seats. 

[MBDiagMan]

2 hours ago, MrRodgers said:

Relegated? 

I prefer the term "fortunate" to be in the vintage category.  There is just something about a well maintained vintage anything that always gets my attention.

 

 

In that case I guess I need to drive my old truck that I bought new 42 years ago and recently restored to Mooney Max this time so you can have a look....... nah, I’d rather show off my Mooney.

[Parker_Woodruff]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Can you provide some insight as to why?

One reason - a lower hull value aircraft is more likely a total loss in the event of a loss.

 

[201er]

8 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mike, that's very close to what I see, real world except I don't run 75%, certainly not at 13 gph.

With 64 gallons burning 8.5 gph I can easily do 5 hour legs with reserves. 

Bob, you make guys half your age on here sound old and wimpy 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

I wanted an E, I really did.  but at my price point I could get a crappy E or a nice C.  I went for the C.  

I did the very same thing and it was unquestionably the right decision. 

I'd buy a top of the line F before I'd spend the same money on a raggedy J. Of course if a top of the line J is in the budget, that is one of the best Mooney models ever made and a great investment.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I did the very same thing and it was unquestionably the right decision. 

I'd buy a top of the line F before I'd spend the same money on a raggedy J. Of course if a top of the line J is in the budget, that is one of the best Mooney models ever made and a great investment.

I've really enjoyed my well-equipped C for.the last decade plus. It's good for 5 hours plus, also, but I really feel the need to stand up and walk around at 4 hours. Been 4:45 twice, landing with 1:15-1:20 in the tanks, restless legs and a stiff back. Maybe I just need to redo the seats?

[Bob_Belville]

19 minutes ago, 201er said:

Bob, you make guys half your age on here sound old and wimpy 

 

[larryb]

Remember this, the purchase pales to the cost of ownership over time. $30k per year for 10 years and who cares if you spent 50k or 100k to buy it? And that nice new GTN costs the same to install in K or a C model.

[MICKEY]

@larryb has a good point.  But this also is variable with Loan vs cash only. 

I had this same question 2 years ago. I was looking at 182RG's at that the time, great aircraft and fit my mission.  Then I flew in a M20C and thought hell, what a great aircraft.  I thought about a M20F/J.  For the price of a nice C172, I could get a M20F. For the price of a 182RG I could get a M20J.   Getting the most aircraft for the money in the $60-90k range is a decked out F or a barebones J. Cruise speed difference is 5-10kts 

In retrospect I would consider a great J airframe with crappy panel as the G3x or G500 txi and GFC 500 are great opportunities for a great price.  for $50k you can have a brand new panel. If you're flying Cross country in a Mooney you'll want a nice panel and the extras. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Most of us would rather think of them as talons. You know, like the hawk or eagle where our birds fly. Chicken feet probably are pretty common on Pipers.


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Ouch, that really hurt!

Clarence

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, larryb said:

Remember this, the purchase pales to the cost of ownership over time. $30k per year for 10 years and who cares if you spent 50k or 100k to buy it? And that nice new GTN costs the same to install in K or a C model.

Are you seriously spending $30K a year to fly an Encore? I hope you’re getting 200-250 hrs for that. Operating costs for my F if flown 100hrs a year are typically just under $140 an hour. More if I fly less, less if I fly more. Even if I include $20 an hour for engine reserves I’m less than half of your number.

[larryb]

47 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Are you seriously spending $30K a year to fly an Encore? I hope you’re getting 200-250 hrs for that. Operating costs for my F if flown 100hrs a year are typically just under $140 an hour. More if I fly less, less if I fly more. Even if I include $20 an hour for engine reserves I’m less than half of your number.

Yup. I owned a J for 5 years and my Encore for 2 years. There is not a large difference in total cost between the two.

My fixed costs alone are $20K. But I admit, some of that is higher than others might experience. First, I live in California. Second, I lease two hangers, one at my home airport and another at my vacation house airport. So I am paying a total of about $1000 per month just for hanger storage. Take that plus insurance, annual, and subscriptions and I am at $20K without flying an hour. I do fly a fair bit, so that accounts for the rest of it. 

[Marauder]

Yup. I owned a J for 5 years and my Encore for 2 years. There is not a large difference in total cost between the two.
My fixed costs alone are $20K. But I admit, some of that is higher than others might experience. First, I live in California. Second, I lease two hangers, one at my home airport and another at my vacation house airport. So I am paying a total of about $1000 per month just for hanger storage. Take that plus insurance, annual, and subscriptions and I am at $20K without flying an hour. I do fly a fair bit, so that accounts for the rest of it. 

I’m glad people are coming out of the closet when it comes to expenses. I am on record it costs between $22k and $28k a year to fly my F. I look at aviation costs as an “all in” endeavor. I know some people don’t count some factors like engine reserves because they feel that they will sell the plane before TBO or look at it as part of the capital cost. Either way it is a real cost (loss of value or a capital investment later). Here is how mine breaks down. I will say that my annuals are more expensive lately because I have been using a MSC, but I also noticed a drop in the maintenance costs throughout the year (any correlations?).

Hangar - $5,400
Fuel (150 hours at 10 GPH @ $4.95/gallon) = $7,425
Aviation Databases = $1,200 (onboard & iPad app)
Insurance = $1,400 (high hull value)
Annual = $4,500
Engine Reserves = $15/hr = $2,250 ($30,000 w/ accessories based on TBO)
Avionics Reserves = $10/hr = $1,500 (pitot static, repairs, upgrades)
Routine Maintenance = $1,000 (oil changes, small break/fix)

Total = $24,675



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[Marauder]

And oh, that breaks down to $164.50 per hour of flying...


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[Hank]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

And oh, that breaks down to $164.50 per hour of flying...

or at 150 KTAS (173 MPHT), it's $1.10 per nm ($0.95 per sm). Somewhat higher than my C, but I try to not track things as closely as Chris . . . .  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I’m glad people are coming out of the closet when it comes to expenses. I am on record it costs between $22k and $28k a year to fly my F. I look at aviation costs as an “all in” endeavor. I know some people don’t count some factors like engine reserves because they feel that they will sell the plane before TBO or look at it as part of the capital cost. Either way it is a real cost (loss of value or a capital investment later). Here is how mine breaks down. I will say that my annuals are more expensive lately because I have been using a MSC, but I also noticed a drop in the maintenance costs throughout the year (any correlations?).

Hangar - $5,400
Fuel (150 hours at 10 GPH @ $4.95/gallon) = $7,425
Aviation Databases = $1,200 (onboard & iPad app)
Insurance = $1,400 (high hull value)
Annual = $4,500
Engine Reserves = $15/hr = $2,250 ($30,000 w/ accessories based on TBO)
Avionics Reserves = $10/hr = $1,500 (pitot static, repairs, upgrades)
Routine Maintenance = $1,000 (oil changes, small break/fix)

Total = $24,675



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Annual inspection + Squawks	$5,000.00
Hangar	$2,100.00
Fuel (100hrs X 10X $5.00	$5,000.00
Oil, fasteners and misc.	$1,500.00
Insurance ($60,000 Hull)	$1,000.00
Total	$14,600.00

 

I have a partner with 50% equity interest, so $7,300 is my approximate annual cost for 50hrs of flying or $146 an hour. If I flew 150hrs it would cost less than $100 an hour.  We don't bother with reserves for engine or Avionics.  That money is working elsewhere until we decide it's time for upgrade or replacement.

I'm about  30 years out from retirement.  Calculating the delta in  annual expenses between me, you and @larryb.  At thirty years and 6% (conservative compared to S&Ps 90yr avg of 9.8%),  compounded monthly.   

The value of the difference of larryb's expense stream 30 years from now would be $1,900,210.97

The value of the difference of your expense stream 30 years from now would be $1,300,237.17

Out of the closet indeed.

At this stage in my life there is no way I could make a case for that to myself, much less my wife. If I started flying more for business, then those numbers could be justified.  As a personal travel tool that we use as a family 6  to 12 times a year? NFW...

[chrixxer]

On 4/8/2019 at 7:28 AM, mooniac15u said:

If we are talking about manual gear F's then there are other differences such as non-standard instrument layouts and older style yokes.

And hydraulic flaps (not manual; manual flaps ended with the M20B). Which I don't like. They're more complicated than they need to be, O-rings are a point of failure, and it's more than a bit anachronistic to be pumping your flaps down IMHO. Also, lower Vfe speed. (On the electric F, Vfe is 125 mph, Vle is 120 mph, and I find I like that arrangement a lot better than 120 Vle / 100 Vfe in the older Fs.)

Yokes and instrument panels can be updated relatively easily. Flap system, not so much.
 

To the OP, the Js have a more robust electric landing gear system than the Fs, though many Fs have been converted to the 40:1 ratio system, which helps a lot. (The motor used in the electric gear Fs is on par with the motor Cessnas use for their flaps!)

The fuel selector in the J is much more intelligently placed, post I think 1977.

The later Fs (1969-end of the model) had the quadrant throttle, which I really don't like. (I flew a '67 M20F the other day and delighted in being able to simply and easily and accurately dial in the prop and mixture settings.) Push-pull for the win (the first year J had the quadrant, also, but then sanity was restored.) Not only is it harder to get the settings just where you want them with the quadrant power controls, they stick out in a pod that, coupled with the unfortunate placement of the fuel selector, makes changing tanks in flight a PITA.

I'd have a J if I could have afforded one, TBH. Instead, I got a very nice (fresh P&I, fresh tanks, updated avionics, 1969-standard "T" panel layout, etc) M20F.

And now I'm looking at maybe an Encore or an Ovation, with FIKI. But that's a whole 'nother story.

[steingar]

The OPs mission isn't dissimilar to mine, except I use the back seat for passengers probably less.  I didn't want a stretched fuselage, why pay for and pay to schlep a back seat I'm not going to use?  I could count the number of times I used the back seat of my old airplane on the fingers of one hand.

An Echo will cost less than a 201.  You can get the J-bar, which is cheaper to maintain.  You can do the LOP thing if you like, and odds are with just a bit of help your airplane will outrun a J handily.  Even if it didn't, the difference in trip time between my pokey old C and a J usually amounts to a few minutes.  If I had a choice between a really nice E and a not so nice J, I KNOW which I'd chose.

Edited April 9, 2019 by steingar

[carusoam]

 At thirty years and 6% (conservative compared to S&Ps 90yr avg of 9.8%),  compounded monthly.   

Some really interesting financial factoids... that includes a depression, a Great Recession, a couple of major wars and some minor ones, an oil embargo, and that quirky Y2K thing...

Following simple logic can be dangerous...  it is really easy to go from M20C to M20R with a simple stroke of the pen...  

Best regards,

-a-

[chrixxer]

31 minutes ago, steingar said:

I could count the number of times I used the back seat of my old airplane on the fingers of one hand.

The F/Js are more flexible, full stop. I have used the back seat of my F for human passengers exactly once, but with the seatbacks pulled out it's a great traveling machine for my two big dogs, for rescue critters in a big collapsible crate I have semi-permanently back there, or for skis / snow boards etc. The 64 gallon fuel capacity is also a godsend, and the F (and some Js) have significantly more usable load. The way I fly the F (11,000'+, often with oxygen), I have 7+ hours of no-reserve range (I've flown LA to Eugene, Oregon against a 45 knot headwind and landed with 13+ gallons; Torrance to St. Louis was a one-stop trip...). The Es are great fun to fly, and I miss that, but the F or especially J is IMHO the better option.

[mooniac15u]

39 minutes ago, steingar said:

The OPs mission isn't dissimilar to mine, except I use the back seat for passengers probably less.  I didn't want a stretched fuselage, why pay for and pay to schlep a back seat I'm not going to use?  I could count the number of times I used the back seat of my old airplane on the fingers of one hand.

An Echo will cost less than a 201.  You can get the J-bar, which is cheaper to maintain.  You can do the LOP thing if you like, and odds are with just a bit of help your airplane will outrun a J handily.  Even if it didn't, the difference in trip time between my pokey old C and a J usually amounts to a few minutes.  If I had a choice between a really nice E and a not so nice J, I KNOW which I'd chose.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that an E with "just a bit of help" will outrun a J "handily."  The E that I think you're talking about was an exceptional example and even at that I'm not sure he had an edge over most J's.  The data I heard on it was around 160 Kts groundspeed at 7500 ft with a slight tailwind while pushing the engine pretty hard.

[Shadrach]

41 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

And hydraulic flaps (not manual; manual flaps ended with the M20B). Which I don't like. They're more complicated than they need to be, O-rings are a point of failure, and it's more than a bit anachronistic to be pumping your flaps down IMHO. Also, lower Vfe speed. (On the electric F, Vfe is 125 mph, Vle is 120 mph, and I find I like that arrangement a lot better than 120 Vle / 100 Vfe in the older Fs.)

Yokes and instrument panels can be updated relatively easily. Flap system, not so much.
 

To the OP, the Js have a more robust electric landing gear system than the Fs, though many Fs have been converted to the 40:1 ratio system, which helps a lot. (The motor used in the electric gear Fs is on par with the motor Cessnas use for their flaps!)

The fuel selector in the J is much more intelligently placed, post I think 1977.

The later Fs (1969-end of the model) had the quadrant throttle, which I really don't like. (I flew a '67 M20F the other day and delighted in being able to simply and easily and accurately dial in the prop and mixture settings.) Push-pull for the win (the first year J had the quadrant, also, but then sanity was restored.) Not only is it harder to get the settings just where you want them with the quadrant power controls, they stick out in a pod that, coupled with the unfortunate placement of the fuel selector, makes changing tanks in flight a PITA.

I'd have a J if I could have afforded one, TBH. Instead, I got a very nice (fresh P&I, fresh tanks, updated avionics, 1969-standard "T" panel layout, etc) M20F.

And now I'm looking at maybe an Encore or an Ovation, with FIKI. But that's a whole 'nother story.

Your individual problem with your hydraulic flaps does not make them complicated.  O-rings are typically not a point of failure, they are a point of seepage which makes a slight mess but rarely causes an operational problem.  The point of failure and or malfunction is typically a mechanic that is unfamiliar with the system.  If you were on the east coast, I would freely volunteer 5hrs to help your A&P start from scratch. The benefits would be many: 

1) A fellow mooney pilot would no longer be dealing with an issue that's been nagging him for at least a year.

2) you might rethink your misguided dislike for the system

3) your mechanic would be better in a better position to handle the situation should it come his way again. Blaming one's tools or equipment is not admirable. 

The system in the video below has been opened twice in its 50 year lifetime.  Once to overhaul the pump and once to overhaul the actuator. Both of those tasks were completed in the last 15 years. The system went more than 30 years without needing maintenance.  If your mechanic is unable to set up your flaps as I've demonstrated in this quick video, then he would likely benefit from some addition help from someone familiar with the system. I've yet to meet anyone who couldn't do it, so I'm sure he could as well.

 

[mooniac15u]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Your individual problem with your hydraulic flaps does not make them complicated.  O-rings are typically not a point of failure, they are a point of seepage which makes a slight mess but rarely causes an operational problem.  The point of failure and or malfunction is typically a mechanic that is unfamiliar with the system.  If you were on the east coast, I would freely volunteer 5hrs to help your A&P start from scratch. The benefits would be many: 

1) A fellow mooney pilot would no longer be dealing with an issue that's been nagging him for at least a year.

2) you might rethink your misguided dislike for the system

3) your mechanic would be better in a better position to handle the situation should it come his way again. Blaming one's tools or equipment is not admirable. 

The system in the video below has been opened twice in its 50 year lifetime.  Once to overhaul the pump and once to overhaul the actuator. Both of those tasks were completed in the last 15 years. The system went more than 30 years without needing maintenance.  If your mechanic is unable to set up your flaps as I've demonstrated in this quick video, then he would likely benefit from some addition help from someone familiar with the system. I've yet to meet anyone who couldn't do it, so I'm sure he could as well.

 

 

The bigger problem with the hydraulic flaps seems to be the spar cracking at the attachment point.  That repair is somewhat complicated and expensive.

[Marauder]

Annual inspection + Squawks	$5,000.00
Hangar	$2,100.00
Fuel (100hrs X 10X $5.00	$5,000.00
Oil, fasteners and misc.	$1,500.00
Insurance ($60,000 Hull)	$1,000.00
Total	$14,600.00

 
I have a partner with 50% equity interest, so $7,300 is my approximate annual cost for 50hrs of flying or $146 an hour. If I flew 150hrs it would cost less than $100 an hour.  We don't bother with reserves for engine or Avionics.  That money is working elsewhere until we decide it's time for upgrade or replacement.
I'm about  30 years out from retirement.  Calculating the delta in  annual expenses between me, you and [mention=8639]larryb[/mention].  At thirty years and 6% (conservative compared to S&Ps 90yr avg of 9.8%),  compounded monthly.   
The value of the difference of larryb's expense stream 30 years from now would be $1,900,210.97
The value of the difference of your expense stream 30 years from now would be $1,300,237.17
Out of the closet indeed.
At this stage in my life there is no way I could make a case for that to myself, much less my wife. If I started flying more for business, then those numbers could be justified.  As a personal travel tool that we use as a family 6  to 12 times a year? NFW...

I’ll translate it differently. If I didn’t own my planes for the 28 years I have owned her, I would have been able to retire 3 years ago.

Instead, I get to hang out with you fine folks. Which has been priceless.


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[Shadrach]

44 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

 

The bigger problem with the hydraulic flaps seems to be the spar cracking at the attachment point.  That repair is somewhat complicated and expensive.

Why would hydraulic flaps have more spar cracks than electric? The flaps and attach points are the same for either hydraulic or Electric.   The Fle increase came with S/N 680001 in 1968.  I am pretty sure the flaps were still manual until early 1970. Do the cracks occur at the actuator?  My stub spar is crack free, but it's only a 3100 hr airframe.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Shadrach