Trio Pro Pilot For M20 Mooneys

[P51PAUL]

Mooney Owners,

The STC Group LLC is ready to begin the STC effort for the M20 model. We have completed preliminary engineering studies on the M20.

The STC Group LLC will be pursuing STC approval for all models of the M20, not just certain models or years.

We will need get our hands on a few different years of aircraft to meet the above objective. If you are interested please feel free to contact me via email at paul.odum@thestcgroupllc.com.

Do not reply to this post.

Have a great 2019.

[carusoam]

Paul,

We are going to reply to your post because it makes sense to do so...

What is a Trio Pro?

What is the STC group doing?

How does it help Mooney owners?

We have some STCs that are needed based on products that are available, but not for M20s...

Stay with us a bit....

Anyone understand what Paul is saying?

Best regards,

-a-

[orionflt]

I had actually thought about going for a field approval for the Trio a couple of years ago, they put me in touch with Paul. I offered to work on the Mooney STC with them, but they are on the west coast and I am on the east. since Garmin is not working on the STC for the short body Mooney's the Trio will be a good option.

Brian

[Garryowen]

15 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Paul,

We are going to reply to your post because it makes sense to do so...

What is a Trio Pro?

What is the STC group doing?

How does it help Mooney owners?

We have some STCs that are needed based on products that are available, but not for M20s...

Stay with us a bit....

Anyone understand what Paul is saying?

Best regards,

-a-

Sounds like STC group is looking for a few volunteers to install a trio autopilot in their plane. He wants owners to reach out to him via email - not through the forum. 

But I’m a product of the Louisiana education system so my comprehension of his post may be completely wrong. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Garryowen

[Bob_Belville]

20 minutes ago, carusoam said:

 

What is a Trio Pro?

 

-a-

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/proPilotAutopilot.php

[kpaul]

It's weird because I can only find experimental versions of the Trio Pro, is shows at 3 AMUs, I can only assume the certified version is more expensive.  Yet, looking at STC Group's website they have install kits for certified planes.  So 3 AMU for the AP + 3 AMU for STC Group's install kit plus A&P install time. Once again you are in for 9-10 AMUs.

https://www.thestcgroupllc.com/

 

[carusoam]

Going down the product list of certified planes...

They have 10 kits, the highest price is 3AMU...

What I couldn’t find was what is included and excluded in that price...

Sounds to me...

• buy the Trio AP from Trio... AS shows the rectangular box version for 3.1AMUs
• Get the additional install bits and pieces and STC paperwork from ‘the STC group’ for 3AMU more?
• no mention of the servo motors being included in either price, a gold standard servo is listed at .75amu... how many are needed?
• Then there is install costs on top of that...

If anyone talks to Paul the STCGroup guy... ask him to join us to discuss what is needed to make use of this product?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[orionflt]

21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

• buy the Trio AP from Trio... AS shows the rectangular box version for 3.1AMUs
• Get the additional install bits and pieces and STC paperwork from ‘the STC group’ for 3AMU more?
• no mention of the servo motors being included in either price, a gold standard servo is listed at .75amu... how many are needed?
• Then there is install costs on top of that...

 

Trio: $3,495 (Instrument mount or Stack Mount) 

Includes two servos, GPSS/GPSV, wiring harness & associated hardware.

STC Group supplies Brackets and hardware for installation and STC paperwork for around 3K

Brian

 

[NJMac]

I'll see if I can find the link in pilots of America but the summary wad that the trutrac servos seemed to be much stronger and higher quality. Also claimed the install time was much greater for Trio. I emailed them and offered my E. If i get a free autopilot out of it, i won't much care about the install time.

 

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/trio-vs-trutrak.115271/&share_tid=115271&share_fid=2835&share_type=t

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by NJMac

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

I'll see if I can find the link in pilots of America but the summary wad that the trutrac servos seemed to be much stronger and higher quality. Also claimed the install time was much greater for Trio. I emailed them and offered my E. If i get a free autopilot out of it, i won't much care about the install time.

 

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/trio-vs-trutrak.115271/&share_tid=115271&share_fid=2835&share_type=t

 

Let us know how it progresses.

[P51PAUL]

Hey everyone, I don't want to be rude, but, I had two, count em', 2, crowns removed this morning. And Barry prepped me for replacements. I may have to get a root canal on one of the "removed crown" teeth. I also had two (2) cavities filled. So I'm out of it today. Still have a little jaw drop and had trouble eating my dinner. Having said that, let me try my best here for just a moment to address some comments I've received now that my eyesight is finally clearing up.

The STC Group LLC conducts all the Research and Development work. We handle the installation kits which, by the way, are complete and are MFG's by an excellent outfit here is Simi Valley, CA that does work for Boeing, Airbus, Northrup Grumman, the military, and Sikorski. My MIDO folks took one look at Dave's place and blessed them immediately.

You don't have to purchase anything additional as with the Garmin and TruTrak kits. You'll purchase the PMA'd installation kit, STC, and complete documentation set from The STC Group LLC. Take a look at the attached Cessna Illustrated Parts Catalog and you'll get the point. If any of you would like to get copies of some of our installation instructions just shoot me an email and I'll forward them out when I have a break from my normal job. Which is seven days a week right now until the end of January. Big Dell EMC Data Center project in the works right now. My regular gig.

We have not decided on a price as of today. It's too early and we need to judge "serious" interest from the Mooney community. Trio supplies the Certified version of the Pro Pilot autopilot. The kit is complete. Servos, controller, wiring harness, breakers, PCS and Recover switches, placards, etc. You won't need to purchase any additional "bits". Again, drop me an email. I'll get back to you as soon as I have some spare time.

Like all of you, except those of lucky enough to be retired,  I am working my regular "bill paying" job as a Data Engineer on  a Dell EMC data center rollout project. So I'm heads down on that until the end of January. I need to focus. You don't think I make a living at this, do you? Hope that fills in the blanks.

Again, I want to stress that The STC Group LLC will design an installation that will fulfill the requirements of all the years of the M20, and possibly, other models of your types. My team conducts a great deal of "detailed" research. We know the differences in the parts installed on these airplanes just as well as the people that made them originally. Maybe that's why we are a little higher on price? That is what will set us apart from the other players out there. We have a professional team that's been in this business since the 1960's. We also just took on a couple of part-time youngsters, that work on the F-35 project here in SoCal.

I hope all of you have a happy and successful 2019. If there is enough interest from this group and we can get our hands on a "variety" of aircraft years The STC Group LLC will deploy a product you will be proud to have in your Mooney.

Very best regards - Paul

1006902 Rev J C182 NAVOMATIC.pdf

[carusoam]

Thanks for filling in the blanks, Paul.

Good luck with your recovery.

 

Hmmmm....

I know there is some other STC interests.... around MS...

How would the STC Group feel about generating an STC for Long bodied Mooneys for the Garmin GFC600 AP?

Apparently, G only wants to STC their GFC500 for Mooneys...

A much smaller addressable market, but an interesting / similar opportunity that hasn’t been addressed yet...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

For those that are curious, here is a link to some videos of how the Trio works:

Trio Videos

Looking at their website, the STC for most of the aircraft costs $2750 but a few cost $3000.  The AP itself costs $3495 so you are looking at $6245 to $6495 for parts.

Limitations are similar to the TruTrak:

No engagement below 500 AGL, not certified for coupled approaches.  Should be a good unit for enroute use to ease your workload and allow you time to review an approach plate while getting vectored for the approach.  Also, from what I can tell, there is no option for a pitch trim servo.  So if you want manual electric trim you'll have to bring that yourself.

[jetdriven]

Isn’t the GFC500 gonna cost ~7k plus install? 

[aviatoreb]

3 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Isn’t the GFC500 gonna cost ~7k plus install? 

I think its about $14k in parts for install in my application.  That includes roughly $7k for the basic GFC500, two G5's, and trim servo and a few other items.  So I come up with about 12-14k in parts.

The only place I see that is actually posting installed costs for a similar setup - the Bonanza seems comparably complex and likely a good price model-guess.

https://avionics-laf.com/products/garmin-gfc500-autopilot-9-995-00-installed

Reading through suggests $19k installed.

But that is a lot more avionics (incl the dual G5 and the trim setup) and a more capable autopilot.  Still just calling out costs.  The GFC500 is not 7k in my application.  It is 14k.  But it is ~19k installed.  And this being an airplane...it could well drift up from there. Eg note Lafayette says, "not including repairs" and in my experience there is often restoration repairs when digging in.

I wonder what the Trio Pilot uses for attitude.  I.e., given I have a KI256, what would a person use for the attitude indicator following install?  And there is no trim right?  So bare bones it is much less expensive for equipment, but probably comparable cost for install.  So let's get our group think hats on and try and build an all in cost guess for the Trio, and also the Trig, comparable to my guess of $19k installed for the GFC500.  (Assuming you agree with that guess).

[McMooney]

woot so now it's a race, trio, trutrak or brittain.

personally rooting for brittain

[P51PAUL]

Folks,

Another long response. Sorry. And don't take this the wrong way, please. The STC Group LLC is here to help. If you don't need our help let us know. We are offering our services.

1. woot so now it's a race, trio, trutrak or brittain.

I'm not racing anyone. I don't have time for that. If The STC Group LLC gets 25 to 30 FIRM commits that are willing to put up $500 deposits I'll pursue the effort.

Remember that I have a regular job guys and my group is making the effort to HELP people, not take your money like a few other companies out there. My team at Oxnard Airport is doing a great deal of avionics installation work, autopilot installation work, ADSB, etc. We are also gearing up to perform pitot static and transponder certification work since we do this as part of the installation. So we will have to carve out time and move this Mooney effort to make a June deadline (if the gov't opens up).

By the way, we also have excellent customer support, unlike the others I have heard about. And our parts don't look like they came from Pep Boys, which is another  Avionics Shop comment I get all the time.

2. No engagement below 500 AGL, not certified for coupled approaches.

This is an FAA requirement for all non-TSO autopilots.

The Trio Pro Pilot is approach capable. Experimental folks use it for approaches all the time.

If you take a look at the Flight Test document attached you'll notice that we are required by the FAA, in order to obtain the STC, to execute LPV approaches as part of our certification effort. These approaches are to minimums with a missed approach, hold entry, and one turn in holding. In order to meet the FAA certification schedule, and due to Small Airplane Directorate schedules, neither TruTrak nor ourselves had the time to carry out full approach certification. Again, this is a scheduling effort. I'll see if I cannot talk to an FAA aircraft certification manager today and ask him if he can give me some guidance to get this completed quickly. Yes, today.

When we test fly a customer airplane we also perform this entire test sheet, to minimums, with a missed approach, hold entry, and holding pattern . The test flight document was assembled by my friend, Ernie, (who also made me get this STC). Ernie is my retired Northrup Grumman friend / engineer / installation designer. You might know a couple airplanes Ernie was responsible for at Northrup. B-2, YF-17, F-20, just to name a few. He ran those design teams.

By the way, for you racing fans. Ernie was one of the engineers that designed the Ford GT-40 for Carroll Shelby when he was a grad student at Cornell. Ernie has great Carroll Shelby / Ford GT-40 stories. Our flight test document is straight out of a standard military flight test document. I flew this test sheet on a customer 1975 C182P the other day (with an LPV to minimums and missed approach).

When we complete our Aspen EFD and G5 integration effort, which is all but complete, The Pro Pilot will have analog approach capability.

3. I wonder what the Trio Pilot uses for attitude? Give Chuck a call at Trio Avionics. He'll answer all your questions. MEM's gyros is the answer but I'm not the expert on this.

4. Install time.

The first thing that my group does is to test fly the customer airplane, with the customer. This is a flight to determine if the airplane is "in rig" and "statically stable". See test number 4. Then my team does a pitot static certification test on the aircraft before installation of the Trio Pro Pilot. Which is the proper procedure we require of all installers. This can add hours to installation costs. Safety first.

When we complete an installation we run the entire Flight Test document.

My group schedules 30 hours to perform an installation. We must "always" rig the aircraft. Every airplane we get into the shop is out of rig, every single one. There is "always" avionics "repair" work required. We are "always" requested to perform additional work required that is non-Trio related. So, that's where those goofy hours you see play into the picture folks. My guys only need a workday or two to install servos and harnesses. The additional time is cleaning up the existing mess so avionics integration can take place. And installing all the new avionics that owners request.

5. Pitch Trim servo - again, I can run this past my a/c certification contact. The Trio ships with electric trim capability "in the box". My FAA friend is behind this effort and I should be able to get this approved on an engineering change. He has already told me he is behind our stronger servo effort and will get it approved under engineering change. Which we understand we need. The servos we have are more than adequate for the Mooney. That engineering is complete and documented.

Have a great week all. I won't have time to get to this forum of for the next few weeks. If you all want to email me directly and tell me you have put together the numbers we require to launch this effort I'll get the team started. We have a mule sitting on the ramp we can use. But we'd like to get our hands on a complete range of Mooney's so we cover all of you. I just talked to Robert and we will start with his 1970 M20C if you all want to move forward.

Be good and don't speculate. It's not productive unless you are certain that you completely understand the process and have been through it 12 time like we have.

Cheers,

Paul

F-1006-43 Rev D - FLIGHT Check CARDS - POST INSTALLATION.pdf

[carusoam]

Great additional details Paul.

Unfortunately, Speculate is what comes naturally from a great group of pilots...  even when they try not to...

The best way to keep speculation and and its variants at bay... Keep us informed as you go through your steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[NJMac]

If The STC Group LLC gets 25 to 30 FIRM commits that are willing to put up $500 deposits I'll pursue the effort.

F-1006-43 Rev D - FLIGHT Check CARDS - POST INSTALLATION.pdf

Does anyone recall what the 3100 was asking for in terms of POs and didn't that come with an extra incentive? 25 - 30 seems like a large group given garmin and trutrac are about to come online.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Steve W]

6 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Does anyone recall what the 3100 was asking for in terms of POs and didn't that come with an extra incentive? 25 - 30 seems like a large group given garmin and trutrac are about to come online.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

STEC: 15, no deposit just a confirmed purchase order from your shop. 1 year additional warranty (3 years total) on the new parts with 2 year warranty on existing servos for upgrades for pre-orders.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Steve W

[Bob - S50]

8 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Isn’t the GFC500 gonna cost ~7k plus install? 

Actually, the minimum install is the GFC500 and one G5 plus a few parts of unspecified cost.  That's about $6995 for the GFC plus $3075 for the G5 with GMU11 and GAD29B for a total hardware cost of $10,070 plus a few extra parts.  So probably something around $10,500 plus installation.

[jetdriven]

What’s a Trio plus a G5 cost plus install?  Let’s try to normalize this 

[Bob - S50]

Ignoring cost, I consider the Trio and TruTrak to be essentially equivalent.  That is, they are both capable of flying an approach but you can't legally do so except in an emergency.  They both have the capability for autotrim but they don't currently provide the option for a pitch trim servo.

Now comparing those two with the Garmin and looking at strengths and weaknesses...

Trio and TT.

Pluses: Lower cost for parts. Independent of the attitude indicator so you can use any attitude indicator you want.  If your AI quits while IMC, the autopilot should still be able to fly the plane.  If the autopilot quits you can still fly the plane manually using the AI and HSI/CDI+DG.  Engagement allowed at 500 AGL.  Can fit in a standard round dial hole so it does not have to fit in your radio rack.

Minuses:  Cannot CURRENTLY legally fly a coupled approach, although if I tested it first I'd certainly use it in an emergency.  CURRENTLY no pitch trim servo available.  CURRENTLY no yaw servo available.  No flight director.  Cannot fly an ILS or VOR approach.   What I consider to be a somewhat more complex method of use that will require the pilot to be very familiar with how it works to avoid getting the dreaded Airbus "what's it doing now?"

Garmin GFC500.

Pluses: Flight director.  VNAV.  RNAV/ILS/VOR approach coupling.  Yaw damper available.  Pitch trim available.  What I consider to be somewhat easier to learn/use.

Minuses: Higher cost.  If you install the minimal single G5 system and the G5 fails, you've lost both your ADI and the autopilot (if you have dual G5's that won't happen but it will cost you an additional $2200 plus install).  If the GPS fails, the autopilot cannot fly any approaches coupled, however, you can still fly them manually.  A slightly higher minimum engagement altitude of 800 AGL unless coupled to an approach.

I won't comment on parts quality because I have no idea about the quality of parts from any of them.

[Bob - S50]

8 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

What’s a Trio plus a G5 cost plus install?  Let’s try to normalize this 

Trio plus a G5+GMU11+GAD29B would be about $9500.  So probably only about $1000 less.

However, that is the beauty of the Trio and TT.  They don't REQUIRE you to have a G5.  If you are looking for minimum cost, they will be far cheaper than the minimum GFC500 cost.  If you WANT to install the G5 you can, and still save a little money.

However, for me, the savings for for a Trio/TT + G5 vs GFC500 isn't worth it.  I'd rather have the capability of the GFC500 at the higher cost.  We plan to install the GFC500, dual G5, 4 servo system in our plane as soon as we can.

[toto]

One of the selling points of the TruTrak is an estimated 18-hour install for the whole system (vs 40+ for the GFC500).  Granted that no one has yet installed either a TruTrak or a GFC500 in a Mooney, is the Trio in the 18-hour ballpark, or the 40-hour ballpark?