Touch and Go in a fire breathing turbo... 252

[N201MKTurbo]

I never thought touch and goes were a big deal until I got to Mooneyspace. I learned to do touch and goes on my first day of private pilot training. I just thought they were a normal pilot maneuver. When I bought my first Mooney in '84 I didn't think twice about doing them. I didn't get any Mooney training, my insurance company sold me insurance before I bought the plane. I had 10 hours in a Mooney, two 5 hour legs. Two takeoffs (over gross) and two landings. A trip to Oshkosh from the airport bulletin board in an M20F. A flight instructor and three guys to pay for his gas.

[Jerry 5TJ]

What does a T&G teach us?  How to jump the shark that suddenly appears on the runway?  

I’d rather train for the usual operations using the usual standard flows.

I practice taking off, landings, go-arounds.   Not T&Gs. 

[Marauder]

What does a T&G teach us?  How to jump the shark that suddenly appears on the runway?  
I’d rather train for the usual operations using the usual standard flows.
I practice taking off, landings, go-arounds.   Not T&Gs. 

I sure would like to see a touch & go in that JetProp of yours - just for giggles.


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[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

What does a T&G teach us?  How to jump the shark that suddenly appears on the runway?  

I’d rather train for the usual operations using the usual standard flows.

I practice taking off, landings, go-arounds.   Not T&Gs. 

Well, in early primary training I do think touch and goes are good.  You are still learning the sight picture of approaching a runway, the tactile feel of the controls, engine control, etc.  In a Cessna 152. And bouncing and bumping your way into a better trained pilot.  You get more approach to landing per hour doing touch and go.

Once I got into my Mooney ownership and I read how easy it is especially during touch and gos to just once forget and gear up.... I decided that heck no touch and go for me.  I only do landings to full stop.  Then if I want a training day and do another landing I taxi back on the taxi ways to do another official departure.  

Actually I train landing very little - I train IFR approaches relatively frequently and anyway with the one or two landings I get every airplane-day outing I seem to keep my landings in excellent shape.  But on those occasions that I might do touch and go...I say no - touch and full stop.  E.g. my last BFR the CFI suggested a touch and go and I said no this airplane does touch and full stop.

BTW - maybe 10 years ago there was a twin piper around here that did a gear up, with a CFI in the pilot seat and a 15,000 hr CFI-DPE in the right seat.  That was embarrassing.  That was a lesson to me that no these guys weren't dummies but a bad day can happen to anyone if you loose your focus. 

[Marauder]

What does a T&G teach us?  How to jump the shark that suddenly appears on the runway?  
I’d rather train for the usual operations using the usual standard flows.
I practice taking off, landings, go-arounds.   Not T&Gs. 

And for the record I don’t practice touch & gos. I do practice aborted landings from different points including ones where a shark does end up on the runway. You know with the amount of rain we have been receiving, it is very plausible a shark could indeed make it to my airport’s runway.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I sure would like to see a touch & go in that JetProp of yours - just for giggles.


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Ultimate in touch and gos giggles - I was once at Burlington, KBTV when the Green Mountain Boys stationed there - an F16 squadron of the air national guard, was doing touch and gos.  I think they use after burners. Touch then point the plane straight up and GOOOOOO!  Talk about a steep climb - Lots of noise too.  And in formation.

Why don't Mooney's have after burners?

Edited November 6, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

.....Why don't Mooney's have after burners?

Well, Mooneyspace does have flamers.  

[kortopates]

I don't do touch and goes in complex aircraft either, although occasionally lots of them in trainer aircraft with pilots learning or relearning the landing sight picture into the round out. So I certainly agree they have their place.  But in the Mooney and other complex aircraft like Bonanza's I prefer to practice "precision" landings and takeoffs; even if 'precision' is just an illusion - it remains the goal.  For example, consider the basic normal landing. If properly done with speed control its not over after the stabilized ~3 glide slope at 1.2-1.3 Vso for approx weight with round out that includes pulling the elevator gradually back till the wings won't support it and it settles on the mains. All at the same time proper rudder control is utilized to keep the nose tracking down the center line. But its not done when the mains have touched. The precision normal landing includes holding the nose wheel off by continuing to add back pressure gently till its all the way back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking from the added pitch drag; the most effective braking early on. After we can't hold the nose wheel off we'll be slow enough for the brakes. The short field approach is very different in approach speed, steeper approach path and a faster round out  with firmer touchdown (which by the way Ross @Shadrach did an excellent job of covering in another thread on the proper short field technique that applies to all Mooney's including the longbodys; as opposed to dragging it in low and slow which is so popular in primary training). Although I only simulate getting on the brakes, but how would you know how good your short technique is while transitioning to the go right after the mains touch? How do you practice the rest of the round out holding the nose off as long as possible if you already started the go? How does one do x-wind practice with more and more aileron into the wind through the x-wind round out and roll out? The T&G is none of these but closer to the aborted landing.  I practice and do aborted landings too, after all its a required element in the ACS and thus a part of a flight review. But I'll often try for just a couple feet above the runway, which IMO requires the most technique or precision in rudder authority to keep the plane above the center line while arresting descent and cleaning up the aircraft. I'll also include the soft field takeoff, because even though our Mooney's don't make good soft field aircraft, its an excellent exercise in rudder technique that we can further reinforce by adding in simulating the high density takeoff by keeping the aircraft in ground effect as we clean it up and accelerate to Vy before leaving ground effect entirely. 

By the time most pilots get to the Mooney for transition training, they have the basic sight picture down and really need do need work on precision more than sight picture. But precision all the way through the landing - not just to the touch. Also the accident record shows us there is more added risk in doing the touch and goes in complex aircraft. This is why pilot proficiency organizations like MAPA and the Bonanza ABS folks have policies against them in part and in part to emphasize the precision elements of each different landing type. 

Is the added risk mitigated  by a proficient pilot with adequate time in type? I think we have enough proficient Mooney pilots here that demonstrate it certainly can be. Just like a couple of professional pilots can do them in an airliner. So I respect the choice of those that have the experience and proficiency and chose to do them. But as an advocate for precision training and my own desire to perfect my landings I see no value in touch and goes in complex aircraft and I personally think the added risks is very real for new low time transitioning Mooney pilots. I especially get the need in the C172 for them, when the Hobbs meter is rolling over at clock time. But in the Mooney it cost me zero maintenance time on my Mooney to complete the roll out and taxi back (i.e. no tach time) 

I'll confess,  while working with a few very low time Mooney transition pilots with new private certificates, I have taken them to an airport with a 2 mile long runway that we could do Stop and Goes for those pilots that really needed lots of lots of Mooney landings. But most transitioning Mooney pilots don't fall into that category and most of our runways are too short to allow that. 

I know this topic will forever remain contentious, so just another pilot's/CFI opinion motivated by safety and precision.

And to the OP, @gsxrpilot, I loved the video - keep them coming!

Edited November 6, 2018 by kortopates

[N201MKTurbo]

I was having lunch at Flower Aviation in Pueblo CO once back in the '80s and watched a United 737 do about 5 touch and goes. But then again you see a lot of odd things at that airport.

[N201MKTurbo]

I don't hold it against anybody for choosing not to do touch and goes, but I think every pilot should be able to do them. 

The only thing different about a touch and go and a missed approach is a few feet of altitude.

Well, and that fence at the end of the runway.

Edited November 6, 2018 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

I was doing some currency in the C310 a while back and we landed at P08. On the rollout my instructor says "Let's make it a touch and go". I look out the windshield and look back at him, shake my head and say "I don't think so". He said I passed that test.

Edited November 6, 2018 by N201MKTurbo

[steingar]

48 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't hold it against anybody for choosing not to do touch and goes, but I think every pilot should be able to do them. 

The only thing different about a touch and go and a missed approach is a few feet of altitude.

Well, and that fence at the end of the runway.

Thing is, if something appears on the runway as I land I have a choice.  One choice could wind up causing bent metal, but the other could be catastrophic.  I submit for evidence my own prop strike, detailed in these pages.  I didn't know I had struck the prop until I got out and saw the blades.  Had I put in the power to go around I'd have done so with an asymmetrically bent prop and a busted crankshaft.  A fellow in a TBM had the same choice as me.  He elected to go around. He and his pax are dead now.

Do as you will but I'm not in a big hurry to do T&Gs.  Did plenty of them in trainer aircraft back in the day.  I do watch the runway pretty carefully as I go to land, not too big on surprises in that situation.  Thankfully I do most of my landings in big enough airports that a deer on the runway isn't going to come as a surprise.

[kortopates]

53 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't hold it against anybody for choosing not to do touch and goes, but I think every pilot should be able to do them. 

The only thing different about a touch and go and a missed approach is a few feet of altitude.

Well, and that fence at the end of the runway.

I'll agree with that and raise you one so to speak, I'd rather see them commence the go around just a couple feet above the runway, add enough power to stop the descent while cleaning up and still maintaining directional control by exercising proper rudder control to keep tracking above the center line while continuing to accelerate and not leave the ground effect and commence too steep of a climb till on proper speed. A "precision" go around in effect.  Like the saying "only perfect practice makes perfect".

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

What does a T&G teach us?  How to jump the shark that suddenly appears on the runway?  

I’d rather train for the usual operations using the usual standard flows.

I practice taking off, landings, go-arounds.   Not T&Gs. 

Precise airspeed and pitch control (I'll concede there are other ways to accomplish this task).  For instance, my home field has a 7,000' runway. I can easily do three touch and goes in that span though rarely do multiples. I don't think anyone needs to do this maneuver.  But I disagree with the notion that it has no utility in sharpening ones skill set.  I make no judgment of those who chose not to do the maneuvers.

[Shadrach]

This very sad crash is relevant to this discussion. In this case, the shark was another plane landing opposite direction. I’m sure any number of things could have broken this accident chain, but being we’ll practiced at reconfiguring from landing configuration to climb configuration might have prevented this accident.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Shadrach

[wayne.banach]

I think if you keep practicing touch and goes you'll find your personal sweet spot. That's why you do touch and goes in the first place to get better. Good luck with your touch and goes.

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[Yetti]

Touch and goes and go around have a similar flow.  It is good to know if you are full flaps and large nose up trim and your firewall everything to get over the shark, you are going to need to be shoving the yoke forward and on the trim wheel.   Then clean up the rest of the plane while sidestepping.   So the value is learning the flow of a go around after the first bounce and a half or the proverbial shark jump.

as far as gear upping it, that should not happen if you are following the landing flow.   But I could see the mental fatigue of I thought I put the gear down after you have done it several times.   My flow is Thresh hold, Airspeed, gear.  If you can't get the plane to slow down, you probably don't have the gear down.

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Yetti

[gsxrpilot]

If anyone likes living dangerously... my right seat is open. Come ride along and show me how to do it right :-)

But seriously, always happy to have company. 

 

[eman1200]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If anyone likes living dangerously... my right seat is open. Come ride along and show me how to do it right :-)

But seriously, always happy to have company. 

 

I've never flown with a stunt pilot before

 

[Shadrach]

16 hours ago, Yetti said:

  If you can't get the plane to slow down, you probably don't have the gear down.

 

I used to think this, but I found out otherwise one day when practicing simulated engine failures at a nearby airport.  Two important things happened:

1) I became desensitized to the blaring gear horn after a few minutes because I was in a power off glide trying to make the runway. 

2) Tower called Turbine traffic just as I was preparing to start my landing configuration flow.  

As it turned out the turbine traffic was a Piper Mirage entering the downwind as I was turning base for a short approach. It was not a useful call as he was not going to catch me and without a rear-view mirror, I wasn't going to see him. So I was later than usual to configure for landing because I was trying to conserve as much energy as possible until I knew the runway was made. I became distracted right before configuring for landing. Slowing through 75mph on final something did not feel quite right (Bee, bee, bee, bee).  I did a  final GUMPs check on short final and could not believe that I had gone that far into an approach without realizing the gear was still up. I went around.  A Mooney will slow down just fine with the gear up. The pitch angle for a given descent profile might be a little bit different, but a lot of folks would miss that, especially those crossing the numbers as 80kts.  The drag just isn't that significant at approach speeds. 

Another odd observation was that on the go around (gear was never dropped) I had to fight a momentary urge to actuate the gear.  I knew it was up and that should remain up but my arm wanted to actuate it one way or the other.  I can imagine how a 'new to manual gear' Mooney pilot might make a big mistake under stress.

It's worth noting that I did go to full flaps as I normally would. I just missed the gear... still makes me shudder when I think of it.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

Even with simulated engine failures/power off 180s, I still put the gear down at the threshold.

[Skates97]

On 11/5/2018 at 8:19 PM, carusoam said:

If you have a challenge with cognitive overload... The TnG just got trickier.

Signs of cog O. L. ...Difficulty with position reporting on the radio... completing the two or three Gumps checks as planned. Floating a thousand feet longer than expected...

If you run into these common COL issues... hold off on the TnGs until the other things are smooth as silk...

Stumbling on the radio, skipping any of the Gumps steps are signs that the TnG is better for a different day...

Fly a couple of times per week and the ordinary COL things probably don’t happen.

Fly in the system, often, ordinary COL things don’t happen.

learn to recognize cognitive over load and mixed memories, and all the goofy mistakes that can happen will be eliminated...

mixed memory... did I put the gear down this time or was it the last lap I still remember...?

its fun learning how the brain works, and takes breaks... over time...

It really is interesting how the brain works. Cognitive overload is an interesting experience that I have not had very often. In fact it really caught me by surprise when I was first working on my PPL. The first time it was the radio call that I couldn't make. I knew what I wanted to say but couldn't get the words to come out right. It got a chuckle out of my CFI who proceeded to make the radio calls for me. More time and experience and the radio calls come naturally now. On a recent flight as we were descending into the Sacramento area landing at Davis they gave me 5 frequency changes/handoffs in the last 16 minutes of the flight and I didn't think anything of it.

On 11/6/2018 at 6:23 AM, aviatoreb said:

Ultimate in touch and gos giggles - I was once at Burlington, KBTV when the Green Mountain Boys stationed there - an F16 squadron of the air national guard, was doing touch and gos.  I think they use after burners. Touch then point the plane straight up and GOOOOOO!  Talk about a steep climb - Lots of noise too.  And in formation.

Why don't Mooney's have after burners?

Visiting my folks last week my dad said "Did I ever tell you about the formation touch and goes we did in training?" He then told the story of how he and another trainee were flying formation in T-38's. Their instructor pilots, a couple of guys that flew F-4's in Vietnam, asked if they wanted to do some formation touch and goes. It sound fun, they said sure. They flew the first one with my dad as wing-man and then switched and my dad was lead for the second one. It was uneventful and they didn't really think anything of it but after they landed they were called in and asked who had authorized it. They said their instructors had suggested it but to their knowledge there weren't any regulations against it. (There really wasn't, yet). The next day the instructors had to meet with the officer (can't remember his rank) over the training wing and they were read the riot act. Turns out he had been out at the runway watching at the time they did the formation touch and goes and was not pleased. By the end of the day there was a regulation in place for the training wing that there were to be no formation touch and goes.

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Even with simulated engine failures/power off 180s, I still put the gear down at the threshold.

So far...

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

So far...

It's part of the flow, check position in pattern, look left to runway threshold, check airspeed, pull up a little to get under gear speed, put gear down, verify on floor gear is going down, start u turn to land, calculate for flaps, check turn coordinator, put flaps half, check gear down, Check for other planes on final, check turn coordinator, check approach, check floor indicator, check centerline, check wind. focus on centerline.

The one time it did not happen this way when the engine hiccupped with the fine wire plugs,   I needed altitude, but then I did not need it, since I was inside the fence, so the gear went out on base.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

It really is interesting how the brain works. Cognitive overload is an interesting experience that I have not had very often. In fact it really caught me by surprise when I was first working on my PPL. The first time it was the radio call that I couldn't make. I knew what I wanted to say but couldn't get the words to come out right. It got a chuckle out of my CFI who proceeded to make the radio calls for me. More time and experience and the radio calls come naturally now. On a recent flight as we were descending into the Sacramento area landing at Davis they gave me 5 frequency changes/handoffs in the last 16 minutes of the flight and I didn't think anything of it.

Hah!  during my instrument training, on a particularly grueling approach to a towered airport, I did the missed approach, but I had to push forwards to keep the nose down, no matter how long I held down the trim button.  I started getting frantic and told my instructor, "hey, something's wrong, I think my trim switch is stuck!"

There was a brief pause, and he said "that's because you're actually holding down the mic button instead."   Fortunately the tower didn't hear that part...