gsxrpilot

Touch and Go in a fire breathing turbo... 252

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Ok with my fire proof underwear on... flame away :ph34r:

This is a touch and go in my 252. The landing is full flaps and almost full up trim. It gets a little wobbly as I grab the flaps and back out the trim while on the go. The taxiway I go by just before lifting off is 700 feet from the edge of the grass. 

This is a 360° video shot with a Rylo camera so you can move it around.

 

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The 360 is great...

I thought I would look back and see a no-flap landing with the TnG...

i was wondering why the flap was moving so quickly... thought it might be an artifact of the camera... turns out, I was looking at an airleron...  :)

Other than the no flap, TnG, with a camera in front of the flight control... the plane knows exactly where the centerline is!

I was hoping to see how much rudder input you gave the fire breathing torque monster.... but that didn’t seem to be very visible...

Nice video Paul! :)

Thanks for sharing.

Best regards,

-a-

For anyone not familiar with the 360° video... click the video to find the option to open In YouTube... then push play and spin around in your chair... hold your arms in close, to not wipe out people in your area...

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nice video quality.

maybe a little more nose up in the flare?   You nose wheel bounced right after the mains hit.   Is the 252 more nose heavy than your average Mooney?

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Handy demonstration of why I'll never have a camera in or on my aircraft.  Less evidence made means less to burn.

If you like dong T&Gs have at it.  I myself will refrain.

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15 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Ok with my fire proof underwear on... flame away :ph34r:

Why ?

What's the benefit and what's the drawback ?

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25 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Why ?

What's the benefit and what's the drawback ?

NooooooooooooooooOOOOOooooooooooooooooo! :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Yetti said:

nice video quality.

maybe a little more nose up in the flare?   You nose wheel bounced right after the mains hit.   Is the 252 more nose heavy than your average Mooney?

Thanks. I was pretty slow and touched down with basically nothing left in the elevators.

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

Handy demonstration of why I'll never have a camera in or on my aircraft.  Less evidence made means less to burn.

If you like dong T&Gs have at it.  I myself will refrain.

Hahahah... I'm certainly in the other camp. I love having footage to review after the fact. I'm always trying out new cameras, mounting points, and viewing angels. 

I don't often to T&G's but don't see any reason not to. That runway is 4000 ft long but only has a taxiway at one end. So a stop means turning around on the runway and taxiing back. In this case, I was down, re-trimmed, and back in the air almost within the first thousand feet of asphalt. So I didn't need to be in a hurry. I did four of these. This being the first one. The rest were even smoother and cleaner.

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1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Why ?

What's the benefit and what's the drawback ?

I'm not sure I understand the question?

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OMG Paul !!!!  I was waiting for the inevitable fiery crash from doing a touch and go with a Mooney......

 

Sorry fellow MSers couldn't resist...

 

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49 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm not sure I understand the question?

For a personally owned Mooney, not paying Hobbs time, only fuel. What's the benefit of a touch and go over a full stop taxi back and what's the drawback ? It takes an extra 2-3 minutes and a negligible amount of extra fuel to do a full stop taxi back versus a touch and go. Why not take the decrease in risk of a "very bad thing"™ happening ?

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36 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

. Why not take the decrease in risk of a "very bad thing"™ happening ?

Well there are lots of VBT.   Where Paul is flying is near Austin.  It does not have a taxiway.  So you have to backtaxi.  Which being near austin makes it game for lots of training flights.  Back Taxi vs. Touch and go...   which is more of a possible VBT?  I am more skeered of getting wacked by a student in the 172 than a TnG.

@gsxrpilot was this Saturday or Sunday.   Saturday afternoon was weird at Brenham   Winds socks were saying North wind.   Radio was saying 220.  Flags on the diner said 220 ish.   I chose 16, and landed mostly normal.

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Nice video, really like the camera.  For the record, I love TnG's in the Mooney,  would  prefer a long trip but sometimes just don't have the time.

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I have twice taken off with landing flaps and trim. I’m not proud. But I saw the evident danger clearly enough. Both times I came perilously close to a departure stall. Folks have died in those, one not too long ago. And that was me trying to be slow and methodical.

Could be a self confidence thing, me not being sufficiently confident in my own abilities to take on the extra risk. But for me there is a bit more to it. I really don’t see the gain of T&Gs. They just don’t make me better at doing anything that is part of my flight regime. And if I’m out flying for the fun of it I’m not in much of a hurry to begin with.

But that’s me, and I think I will continue to refrain. We’re all adults (well, most of us), and I think we can all figure out what works best for us.  If T&Gs works for you have at it. It’s a free country, at least for the time being.

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42 minutes ago, steingar said:

I have twice taken off with landing flaps and trim. I’m not proud. But I saw the evident danger clearly enough. Both times I came perilously close to a departure stall. Folks have died in those, one not too long ago. And that was me trying to be slow and methodical.

Could be a self confidence thing, me not being sufficiently confident in my own abilities to take on the extra risk. But for me there is a bit more to it. I really don’t see the gain of T&Gs. They just don’t make me better at doing anything that is part of my flight regime. And if I’m out flying for the fun of it I’m not in much of a hurry to begin with.

But that’s me, and I think I will continue to refrain. We’re all adults (well, most of us), and I think we can all figure out what works best for us.  If T&Gscworks for you have at it. It’s a free country, at least for the time being.

full flaps and landing trim aren't that big of a deal in my E, it's not a lot of pressure(not trivial either) to keep the nose down and airspeed up.

is it a problem in other mooneys ?

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From 180hp to 310hp...

Short body to long body...

Manual trim to electric trim...

Hydraulic flaps to electric flaps...

 

Landing configuration is usually Flaps down and trim nearly all the way up...

Depending on WnB...

when you add power...

You are going to want to follow the procedure from memory...

Expect to be trimming wildly with manual trim... electric trim is generally slower and less wild... Expect a time delay for them to be moved into the T/O position...

and verify your flaps are positioned as expected...

Don't feel the need to go full throttle because that is how primary training was done...

Expect to modulate the power. Because you can.

 

This is more a challenge for the go around...

In the TnG, dumping flaps and trim can be done quickly while on the ground. Set to T/O positions, then add throttle...

The Go around, or after a pilot forgets to reset flaps and trim, the re-configuration happens while flying...

It is important to get go around experience during Transition Training.  Full power, full up trim and full flaps can cause a couple of surprises....

You can learn very quickly how strong your arms need to be, and how much stamina is required....  and how quickly you need to think if this occurs as a surprise...

A landing that requires a go around... needs enough power added to stop the descent... start retrimming and adding more power within your physical strength...

Before doing any of the go around things... make sure your flap return speed is set up properly.  You don’t want to go from full flap to no flaps in 0.2 seconds... there is a valve for that and a procedure...

Changing configuration near the ground while flying slowly and out of trim, is best practiced at a safe altitude first...

 

So... if your E doesn’t supply a really good work-out, check your...

- WnB... you might be far forwards...

- Flaps... not going all the way down...

- Trim... not going all the way up...

- Throttle... not all the way in...

- power... not all developed...

- Been to the gym lately, working on forearms, hammer press? If you have strong arms you may not notice this nearly as much...

- if you have electric trim, you get to hold the yoke with both arms, while operating the switch... half the work required...

These are also really good things to consider for a run away trim situation...

Or your improper maintenance guy replaces your ADF wire antenna without the proper Mooney spring...

File this under things to know before doing TnGs.

also consider the cognitive strain that goes with the territory... distractions are born in this busy environment during lots of repetition...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI... I don’t use TnGs... I need the full stop practice...

Best regards,

-a-

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9 hours ago, McMooney said:

full flaps and landing trim aren't that big of a deal in my E, it's not a lot of pressure(not trivial either) to keep the nose down and airspeed up.

is it a problem in other mooneys ?

I have Johnson bar gear (which I love).  But it does take my attention for sufficient time for the aircraft to slow dangerously if misconfigured on takeoff.  Yeah, you just push down, it isn't a thing, unless you don't know to do it because you're securing the gear.

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15 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

For a personally owned Mooney, not paying Hobbs time, only fuel. What's the benefit of a touch and go over a full stop taxi back and what's the drawback ? It takes an extra 2-3 minutes and a negligible amount of extra fuel to do a full stop taxi back versus a touch and go. Why not take the decrease in risk of a "very bad thing"™ happening ?

I think the benefit is knowing it can be done safely and without any drama. The drawback of the full stop at my airport is actually having to come to a full stop on the runway and turn around and taxi back on the runway. It's not that wide so requires holding one of the brakes to get it to spin around in the allotted space. I do it all the time, but when I'm just going again... why bother. And as @Yetti said, this is a common airport for flight training. None are based on the field, but they come from all around to use the runway for T&G, practice, etc. 

I'm not a checklist guy but prefer flows and just doing what's important at the time. On of the things I generally always do is retract flaps on touchdown. So on a touch and go, it is natural to get the flaps immediately. I'm also a big guy, so holding the yoke forward and the trim button down at the same time isn't a problem.

I like knowing how my airplane reacts/flies/takes off/lands/etc in all different configurations. So dumping the flaps, applying power and taking off with no flaps and while the trim wheel is spinning, it turns out, is no drama. But I knew it wouldn't be, because I've done it a few times.

So I guess I just don't see even the remote possibility of a VBT happening.

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15 hours ago, Yetti said:

Well there are lots of VBT.   Where Paul is flying is near Austin.  It does not have a taxiway.  So you have to backtaxi.  Which being near austin makes it game for lots of training flights.  Back Taxi vs. Touch and go...   which is more of a possible VBT?  I am more skeered of getting wacked by a student in the 172 than a TnG.

@gsxrpilot was this Saturday or Sunday.   Saturday afternoon was weird at Brenham   Winds socks were saying North wind.   Radio was saying 220.  Flags on the diner said 220 ish.   I chose 16, and landed mostly normal.

This was Friday morning early. The wind was right down the runway. I don't know how strong, we don't have weather at 84R. But I was out early, did three T&G's and put her back in the hangar. It was just good to get out and fly.  The old guys sitting around the airport were surprised and thought something might have been something wrong. I'm the one guy at this little airport, who is typically going a few states away when I take off in my Mooney. No, I just wanted to fly and didn't have any place to go.

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Paul,

Nice video. those 360* cameras are really cool for this application.  Two comments from me.

1)  I stuck a GoPro under the wing to see how well my gear doors closed.  It would have been interesting to have run the video another 10 secs or so to see how tight they are or are not.

2) Flare seems a little high, but that could be camera distortion. If you fly into the ground effect and run back the trim through the flare, you will have more elevator authority.  It's easier to demonstrate than describe.   I have found the technique as described by Rod Machado to be very useful.  I have also found @donkaye advice to keep two runway stripes visible over the nose to be a good reminder to follow through. 

-dan

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Thanks @exM20K. I hadn't planned to use the camera and so neglected to charge it up the night before. So the video ended when it ran dead. 

I'll have to think about your suggestion. Are you saying to add nose up trim during the flare or remove the nose up trim during the flare?

Here's the initial take off with gear retraction and extension.

 

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For anyone interested, I'm using a Rylo 360° camera. I have it mounted sideways or with the lenses looking left/right in relation to direction of travel. 

One of the benefits is that editing is done easily with the iPhone or Android app. One of the problems is that no other editing programs support the 360° function. I can edit video in another program such as Adobe or iMovie, but first I have to export the video without the 360° function. In other words, I have to choose the view, and then export it. Then it will play as a regular video without the ability to move the view around.

One of the problems is that the Rylo iPhone editor doesn't allow stitching multiple video clips together. This meant I couldn't get a single video clip of a full lap around the pattern.

Anyway, thanks for watching.

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1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Thanks @exM20K. I hadn't planned to use the camera and so neglected to charge it up the night before. So the video ended when it ran dead. 

I'll have to think about your suggestion. Are you saying to add nose up trim during the flare or remove the nose up trim during the flare?

Here's the initial take off with gear retraction and extension.

 

Gear doors look nice and tight.

On my 231, simultaneously rolling in nose-up trim and slowly closing throttle in the flare almost always gave a mains-only squeaker.  Except when people were watching, of course.

Next time i'm in AUS or you're in Chi, let's fly together.

-dan

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