Too soon to move on to a Mooney 231? 130TT

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

Es can fly LOP. Cs, not so much . . . .

All of which is offset by higher overhaul and component costs.  I call bs on the cost chart.

[Warren]

I bought a 231 with only 70 hours all in a 172.  With good transition training it is not hard to learn to fly.  Just take the time to slowly build experience.  A careless moment or a careless pilot can get you in trouble much more quicky in a Mooney than a 172.  Higher performance requries a little more precision when flying.

I think it is finacially much less expensive to buy a longer term airplane than take an intermediate step and upgrade later.

The biggest challenge is learning to deal with the speed during descent and landing.  Flying at altitude, on oxygen and in the flight levels can wait until you have more experience.  

Lower cost is the 231.  Make sure you get one with an intercooler and upper deck pressure controller or plan to make this upgrade. This closes the performance gap to the 252 significantly.  Still need to manage MP but this quickly becomes second nature and is only critical when applying takeoff power — about 15 sec on a normal flight and during a ‘go around.’  I was really comfortable with everything after about 30 hours of flying.  I then did my IR and that also made a huge difference in my piloting ability and general comfort with the airplane.

Better yet is the 252.  Costs more money and if you can afford it, it is the better plane and worth the extra money. For the extra money you get better MP control, larger turbo, 24V, dual alternators, infinitely adjustable cowl flaps and more speed (5-10 knots at altitude).  Probably a few more things but this gives you a general idea.  And one more is the Encore upgrade — big increase in useful load if you can find one.

The other obvious question is level of avionic upgrades and maintenance.  There are huge upgrade costs and/or maintenance costs that will overshadow the purchase price considerably.

Good luck.

[CharlesHuddleston]

I got my 231 with about 100 hrs, mostly in a Cherokee and Archer. The hardest part for me has been learning engine power settings and management, but I have enjoyed learning! It is a great airplane. Are there better ones out there? Yes. Are there cheaper or more expensive ones? Yes. It all depends on what you are looking for as far as mission and budget! After all, the thing that makes most airplanes fly is money! Bottom line is making sure you get the help and training to transition into a high-performance/complex airframe. Good luck!

[johncuyle]

This question comes up a lot.  I can't afford the opex of a Bravo or the capex of an Acclaim, so I'm down in mid-body turbo land.  The smart buy would probably have been a J model for the kind of flying I actually do, but I'm not that smart.  I've got a 231. There's more engine management, and this can be a handful on go around, but other than that the only major difference between a 231 with intercooler and controller and 252 is the electrical system.  The 252 has a 28v dual alternator setup which makes it a candidate for FIKI TKS.  If you need FIKI TKS, you buy a 252 or Bravo.  If you can get by without FIKI TKS, the 231 is significantly cheaper, enough so that the 252 is probably not worth the price premium, and I say this as someone that thinks the Encore is probably the best overall plane Mooney has ever and likely will ever build.

[CaptainAB]

On 10/12/2018 at 9:35 AM, airbuspilot2436 said:

I'm planning to purchase an M20K, is it too soon for someone with 130TT? 

 

Thanks for your help!

130 TT over 6 months or 3 years. If you are Flying 15-20 hrs per month or more your going to be just fine.

[CoffeeCan]

17 hours ago, CaptainAB said:

130 TT over 6 months or 3 years. If you are Flying 15-20 hrs per month or more your going to be just fine.

I would mostly agree with this. 

I bought my 231 this year after I had accumulated 380+ hours TT over a 5 year period, but 240 of those hours were flown in the 22 months prior to the Mooney purchase, and nearly all of them were in a "complex" Cessna 172XP (Continental 6-cyl engine with constant speed prop). Personally, I found having that much time running a FI Continental really helped me with my transition into the 231. And having a good bit of flight experience in differing flight conditions, including some instrument training, gave me experience I was really glad to have as I learned my Mooney. In the 95 hours I've accumulated in my 231 since July, I've learned a LOT about engine management and a LOT about handling the aircraft, and much of that learning would have slipped right past me if I hadn't already learned a LOT in accumulated hours in my Cessna. 

Depending on whether you have the -GB or -LB engine, and on your engine monitoring system, learning to run your Continental TSIO-360  may be easy or it may be less easy. If you have a JPI monitor with good transducers and GAMIjectors, it will be pretty easy. If you have the original factory engine instruments only, it's gonna be harder. 

I expect you will be dunned by your insurance company for your low total time and low time in type. This may be significant. Also, you will almost certainly be required to take a minimum number of hours of dual instruction from a certified Mooney CFI. This isn't a bad thing. I spent 16 hours in the cockpit of my 231 with David McGee of All American Aircraft, and it was well worth the time and money to do so. 

 

[mooniac15u]

On 10/13/2018 at 2:36 AM, Raptor05121 said:

How does that counter with the extra 1-2gph more on takeoff for the 20hp?

Whats the fuel burn at LOP? My last two tanks were (11 hrs) were right at 9.1 and 9.2 gph, respectively.

Now lets count mx on that fuel spider, price of angle valve cylinders, MOH cost...

 

I think you are just evaluating hourly costs which assumes the same number of hours of usage.  But hours are not the only way to measure your operating costs.  You can also look at what it would cost for each plane to accomplish the same flights in a year. The E should be something like 10% faster and will accomplish those flights in fewer hours.

I use my J for roughly the same type and number of flights per year as I used my D but I log fewer hours per year in my J.

[Seth]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:40 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Very true... But the running costs/OpEx don't follow the same linear model.  From my research there was actually a dip in the running costs from the 231 to the 252 in reduced maintenance, longer cylinder life, and a better chance the previous owner didn't thrash the engine. Then there was a pretty sizable jump going to Rocket, Bravo and beyond.

Something like this...

GREAT chart.

Where is my Missile on that chart?

-Seth

Edited October 18, 2018 by Seth

[CoffeeCan]

On 10/13/2018 at 9:43 AM, Warren said:

I bought a 231 with only 70 hours all in a 172.  With good transition training it is not hard to learn to fly.  Just take the time to slowly build experience.  A careless moment or a careless pilot can get you in trouble much more quicky in a Mooney than a 172.  Higher performance requries a little more precision when flying.

I think it is financially much less expensive to buy a longer term airplane than take an intermediate step and upgrade later.

The biggest challenge is learning to deal with the speed during descent and landing.  Flying at altitude, on oxygen and in the flight levels can wait until you have more experience.  

 

I have to disagree with the bolded section above. How is buying a more expensive aircraft sooner rather than later going to cost you any more or less? It costs what it costs. And there is no question that flying a Skyhawk or Cherokee for a couple of years is relatively cheap. 

The costs of flying a trainer (or slightly advanced trainer) are quite a bit lower than those of a M20K, and you can learn a lot of valuable lessons in the Cessna while doing so. Building that flight time and experience in a  simple-to-operate and low-cost aircraft can give the owner-pilot the leisure to build time and experience more slowly and thoroughly, which can save you money later when you're dealing with a more complex aircraft. 

And you won't be throwing money away if you buy a 172 or Cherokee, either. Resale value and demand remains high for older aircraft. For example, I bought my 172XP in 2016 for $45,000, and sold it this past July for $45,000. I put about $8,000 into it in repairs and maintenance, for a total hourly operating cost over that 2-year period of less than $40/hr, not including fuel. 

[jaylw314]

I'd point out that there is a measurable cost to selling and buying a plane.  Depending on the circumstances, this could be anywhere between $2000-$10,000, which includes inspections, travel, deals that fall through, escrow fees, loan fees, ferry costs, transition training, insurance delta for new type, etc.

In the big scheme of things, that's kind of on the edge of being significant.

[bradp]

Don’t start with the plane unless it’s a globe Swift, staggering, be18, or sterman, etc. 

Start with your mission.  Then figure out whether your mission will change in the next 8 years.  The model needs to fit about 80% of your mission profile at least.  Choose the best example of the model that finds you.  The plane will find you.

[gsxrpilot]

26 minutes ago, bradp said:

Start with your mission.  Then figure out whether your mission will change in the next 8 years.  The model needs to fit about 80% of your mission profile at least.  

That's a big ask for someone who's never owned a plane before. 

My "mission" when searching for my first plane, was to fly 100 hours per year. I had no idea what type of flying it would be or if I'd even be able to fly that much. So I bought a relatively cheap plane as an entry into the club. 

That first plane taught me what my true mission was. And what was realistic.

[bradp]

Paul then would Mooney vs Grumman vs whatever have sufficed for your requirements? Cheap, 100 hrs per year flying or were you set on Mooney. 

Mine was cross 500 nm trips with comfortable fuel reserves, NE IFR platform, fuel efficient, room for small family ... that lead to F/J.  

[Hank]

My mission, as a student pilot, was something affordable that I could fly across the mountains from Furthest WV to our families in Georgia and the Carolinas. I had never heard of Mooney, but the fuel flows on 182s and many Pipers were frightening. Then I found a local Mooney for sale, took a test flight and started working on a spreadsheet. Five weeks after my PPL checkride, I wrote a really big check. The day after finishing my required dual, I took my wife to the opppsite side of WV for lunch. We were both hooked . . . . It's been eleven great years.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

Paul then would Mooney vs Grumman vs whatever have sufficed for your requirements? Cheap, 100 hrs per year flying or were you set on Mooney. 

Mine was cross 500 nm trips with comfortable fuel reserves, NE IFR platform, fuel efficient, room for small family ... that lead to F/J.  

Very good question. I set my budget at $50K which while it was comfortable for me and cash in hand, it was still a lot of money and more cash than I'd ever spent on anything. Therefore I wanted something "cool" that I would be very proud to fly. That meant for me, it had to be a tailwheel or retract. So all the fixed gear tricycles were out. My wife insisted that anything I bought had to carry her and our 50 lb dog. So that eliminated most two seaters. The Mooney then became the obvious choice. But everything was speculation. The wife might have hated flying, and the dog might have gotten air-sick, and so I didn't want to go all in, but rather just dip my toe in the water so to speak.

But it was after buying the M20C and discovering that we enjoyed flying it all over the entire country. And we were logging closer to 200 hours per year. We then realized that the Mooney... with a little bigger engine, range, turbo... was the perfect airplane for us.

[larryb]

I will say that when I got my IR I was very happy to be flying a J and not a bravo. The fuel burn on all those missed approaches would have been something to see! But now that I have it the encore is a much better fit.

[smccray]

5 hours ago, bradp said:

Start with your mission.  Then figure out whether your mission will change in the next 8 years.  The model needs to fit about 80% of your mission profile at least.  Choose the best example of the model that finds you.  The plane will find you.

That’s good advice. I hate it!

2 step process:

1) what do you want to fly?

2) Can you afford it?

 

[CoffeeCan]

16 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

That's a big ask for someone who's never owned a plane before. 

My "mission" when searching for my first plane, was to fly 100 hours per year. I had no idea what type of flying it would be or if I'd even be able to fly that much. So I bought a relatively cheap plane as an entry into the club. 

That first plane taught me what my true mission was. And what was realistic.

 

I agree. 

I bought my first plane while I was still a student pilot. I had been flying airplanes belonging to my local flying club, and the club went bankrupt just as I was getting ready for my PP checkride. Bummer. 

I decided renting would be a good option until I did the math... and a friend had a 172XP for sale at a decent price so I snapped it up. I flew it 100+ hours/year for 2 years, and in the process determined what my airplane mission would be. 

Buying a "starter" airplane (for lack of a better term) makes a lot of sense. It doesn't cost that much to get into ownership, and if you are reasonably careful, you can sell for it in a year or two for about what  you paid to get into it. By having your OWN airplane to fly whenever you can or want, you will figure out if you truly do fly enough to justify ownership. I know guys who bought their first airplane and realized after 3 or 4 years that they simply aren't active in aviation to the point of justifying the expense. That is a relatively cheap lesson if you buy a Cherokee or 172, but it's tougher to justify if you are spending $150+ thousand dollars.  

I don't believe anyone should buy an airplane with a definite time-frame in mind. An 8-year investment makes no sense for folks that are just starting out in general aviation.

[Aerodon]

The guys on Beechtalk are bragging about the hours in different Beechcraft.  One guy has all his hours in Beechcraft, 6.5 in Bonanza and the rest in a Baron.  And yes, that does mean he got his PPL in a Baron. Aerodon