TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[Navi]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I assume it’s mostly self contained, 2 wires to get GPS data, 2 for power, 2 for navigation? It doesn’t use VORs or heading mode so just needs current gps velocity, gps altitude, and desired track to next waypoint.


Tom

Mostly yes... GPS data comes on 3 wires, ARINC 429 "A", ARINC 429 "B", RS232 + (and ground of course.)  , +14V and (-)  ground. Requires  Pitot and static connection (hoses)

Cap

[carusoam]

Nice details Navi!

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeev]

Thank you NAVI for posting.  We have done multiple PA28 installs and I have been on a couple test flights with simular experiences, the Vision performs very well.  

I had my weekly follow up call with Trutrak today and was hoping for some good Sun & Fun news however we are still in a holding pattern.  TruTrak has all of the certification paperwork in order and ready for the FAA however they have to wait for the PA32 and C182 approvals to come through before they submit the Mooneys to the FAA.  So unless something changes we are months out for certification. 

I know this frustrates many of you and I am frustrated as well.  From my frequent communications with TruTrak I truly believe that they are working the system the best they can and the hold ups are with the FAA.  As soon as I hear anything new on the Mooneys I will communicate it ASAP.

Sanjeev

[MBDiagMan]

Frustrating is putting it mildly.  I’m about to take a shot to see if they can successfully overhaul my Brittain.  Very sad.

[ArtVandelay]

Weren’t they the ones that said the FAA was working at “light” speed?


Tom

[Navi]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Weren’t they the ones that said the FAA was working at “light” speed?


Tom

I recall something said (written?) like that back in early 2017, but from Trio...

Nav

[Jesse Saint]

What the FAA WAS doing and what they ARE doing are very seldom lined up. The PA-32 and 180/182/185 paperwork was submitted in November, and at that time they were expecting a 4-6 week approval time. Then some people at the office they were working with quit or were transferred, and they changed the quoted approval time to 6-8 months. Of course, the government shut down didn't help things. 2 weeks ago today they were told something along the lines of, "your approval will be issued today." Now they are on a, hopefully slight, hold due to the Automatic Envelope Protection because of the 737 Max issue with the auto pilot. I am sure they have the Mooney paperwork ready to submit, or at least very close to ready, and hopefully it won't take as long this time, but when you are dealing with the government, they will do it when they do it. You know the slogan, "We're not happy until you're not happy." Well, we're all not happy, so we just need to wait until they realize this and then become happy.

[NJMac]

I think they meant lite speed

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[Jeev]

1 hour ago, nosky2high said:

Winning!!!

Take my money now. My pre-order has been placed.

Haha yep, they said any day on that approval!  Mooney’s are next!!!

[MBDiagMan]

Your money might be tied up for quite a while.  In the mean time you’ll be hand flying unless you have a working AP that will be replaced.

[David_H]

Just curious.... Does anyone know why the PA32 and C182 need to be approved before submitting approval paperwork for other aircraft makes?

[ArtVandelay]

I imagine it’s the servos and their installation that needs to be tested and approved for the Mooney.

 The controller base tests need not be repeated.

 

[MBDiagMan]

2 hours ago, nosky2high said:

 

It’s a pre-order so no money is “tied up” and I had no idea that I’d be hand flying my plane unless I have a working AP...wow.

SMH

You don’t hand fly your plane when there’s no working autopilot?  Do you stay on the ground?

BTW, I am happy for you that you have no money tied up.  

[David_H]

If paperwork to the FAA hasn't been submitted yet, then this AP solution seems like it could still be a long way out before being ready. Perhaps TT will be able to get it together and move it through.

I'm unsure why the FAA was being cited as a reason for the delay earlier in the thread if TT had not yet begun the approval process for the Mooney with the FAA.

[Navi]

37 minutes ago, David_H said:

If paperwork to the FAA hasn't been submitted yet, then this AP solution seems like it could still be a long way out before being ready. Perhaps TT will be able to get it together and move it through.

I'm unsure why the FAA was being cited as a reason for the delay earlier in the thread if TT had not yet begun the approval process for the Mooney with the FAA.

Ummm… I understand the "Approval process" stars long before the "paperwork" is submitted.  Apparently an FAA inspector is assigned to a project early, and follows development along the way. When the "paperwork" (formal application) is finally "submitted" it has already been blessed by the FAA and the formal STC document to ship product will come in due course. This is how it is done in Canada with TC.. and I am told the FAA have a similar process...

A good guvmint inspector can "steer" an applicant through the hurdles, even down to the acceptable "verbiage" in the application... the "Formal Application " is the result of this process...

Nav

[David_H]

6 hours ago, nosky2high said:

Previously the STC was managed through EAA. Now TruTrak holds their STC going forward.  

Did EAA pull out for a specific reason?

[DustinNwind]

I just talked to TruTrak yesterday and the young lady that started a month ago was bewildered why anyone would have said the AP for Mooney would have been in service in spring - they haven't even submitted any paperwork to FAA. She said they have only worked on the 172, 180, 182 and 185. Cory, the guy that was telling everyone it would be done by end of 2018, then beginning of 2019 and of course by now, spring has been fired. They are projecting the end of the year at the earliest. Incredibly disappointing as I purchased my airplane with a new engine and without an autopilot based on their lies. 

[NJMac]

I just talked to TruTrak yesterday and the young lady that started a month ago was bewildered why anyone would have said the AP for Mooney would have been in service in spring - they haven't even submitted any paperwork to FAA. She said they have only worked on the 172, 180, 182 and 185. Cory, the guy that was telling everyone it would be done by end of 2018, then beginning of 2019 and of course by now, spring has been fired. They are projecting the end of the year at the earliest. Incredibly disappointing as I purchased my airplane with a new engine and without an autopilot based on their lies. 

Some guys are good sales guys based on charisma. Others are even better when they deliver what they sell.

 

My E has nothing either. I'll just keep hand flyingand wait to see how Garmins progress on the short bodies goes. I think thats the top of the line for anyone on a budget.

 

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[DustinNwind]

I've been hand flying the last 400 hours and don't mind it but the safety margins go down significantly in hard IMC - selling a mint machine mostly in the next couple of weeks. 

[Navi]

4 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

I just talked to TruTrak yesterday and the young lady that started a month ago was bewildered why anyone would have said the AP for Mooney would have been in service in spring - they haven't even submitted any paperwork to FAA. She said they have only worked on the 172, 180, 182 and 185. Cory, the guy that was telling everyone it would be done by end of 2018, then beginning of 2019 and of course by now, spring has been fired. They are projecting the end of the year at the earliest. Incredibly disappointing as I purchased my airplane with a new engine and without an autopilot based on their lies. 

 Hmmmm….

As of 2 weeks ago Corey had left on good terms and was still assisting Steve in his new role . He had left to pursue his dream of flying commercially. He was building hours flying pipeline patrol for a local contractor..

Same young person I spoke to ( on another matter) (been there 3 weeks she said)  was definitely...…….   mmm… ……  new  .... 

Donno….

[MBDiagMan]

8 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

I just talked to TruTrak yesterday and the young lady that started a month ago was bewildered why anyone would have said the AP for Mooney would have been in service in spring - they haven't even submitted any paperwork to FAA. She said they have only worked on the 172, 180, 182 and 185. Cory, the guy that was telling everyone it would be done by end of 2018, then beginning of 2019 and of course by now, spring has been fired. They are projecting the end of the year at the earliest. Incredibly disappointing as I purchased my airplane with a new engine and without an autopilot based on their lies. 

Was Corey the sales guy?  He told me the same thing in October at the Mooney Max event.  This is terribly disappointing.  I too made a purchase decision with the TruTrak plan factored into my decision.

Very disappointing.  What do I do next?

[Jesse Saint]

Come on, guys. It wasn’t a lie. There wasn’t even deceit involved. They had every intention of making those projections, but it just didn’t happen. There were delays in the finalized design and certification of the 180/182/185 and the PA-32’s, coupled with the need to do some redesign on the Mooney install following flight testing. It will get done. Hopefully the STC approval process will happen faster than with the above-mentioned models, which were supposed to take 4 weeks and took 4+ months. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'd say "lie" is a bit strong for this situation. As anyone knows who's been in this business and had to deal with FAA approvals, there are just no guarantees. The only products that come out "on time" are the one's no one knew about. A business can either err on the optimistic side or on the pessimistic side. And pessimists don't even participate in this business. I'd bet that Cory was out selling the story exactly as he was under orders from management, to say. I'm also sure that after continued missed deadlines and committed dates, it was becoming a more and more difficult story to tell, and he probably left of his own accord. It's a sad situation non-the-less, but I certainly wouldn't put the blame entirely on TruTrak. I also wouldn't make an airplane purchase based on promises of things "coming soon!"

[Navi]

3 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Was Corey the sales guy?  He told me the same thing in October at the Mooney Max event.  This is terribly disappointing.  I too made a purchas3 decision with the TruTrak lie Factored into my decision.

Very disappointing.  What do I do next?

Corey was the sales and marketing guy, with a strong technical background..  New guy Steve has been with them a while (years) , and his strength is in the design and assembly of the products..

I spoke to Zach… Their Mooney is, as he puts it, is waiting on him...  he said the servo mounting and placement has been worked out, so they are to that point on the Mooney. It is next in line... I could tell between the words that he has been spending endless hours with FAA types, mostly getting progress in tiny increments... 180, 182, 185 APs are shipping, and they are now  building to their back log as fast as is practical..

I can tell it's been a terribly frustrating year for them .   

From a business point of view.. it must be challenging having $$$$ tied up in product you cannot ship without the paperwork and facing endless delays in getting the FAA to move along with a project..

'Tis what it is I guess, but a very difficult business model...

[carusoam]

Sales 101... for those guys that haven’t done this before....

When selling machines or their parts... it takes skill to under promise and over deliver...  UPOD.

The stronger your skills, the more accurate your promises will be... customers really appreciate this.

If you over promise or under deliver, like in this case... you get called a liar...   OPUD.

First lesson in machine sales... customers are always asking what’s next... mostly because they don’t want to buy yesterday’s technology when tommorow’s might be right around the corner.   The key word here is SWAT.... Sell What’s Available Today.

People lie, usually with the intent to deceive... to steal/rob from somebody... there was no crime in this case so “lie” May be too strong... but this is really a case of disappointingly poor salesmanship... enough to be angry about...

Keep in mind, If you OPUD, you will probably be called a liar...

Anyone sitting front seat of an airliner, with a mechanical or weather challenge, has to make promises to those people in the back...  you will probably be thinking UPOD just before delivering the news to the passengers...

Keep this in mind when you are telling passengers how great GA is... it is really easy to over promise something, following it up with a high level of risks... to try to make up for the first mistake...

Human error...  sales, like flying, is something that gets learned...

Just because you are good in one area, doesn’t make you naturally good in another area...   some people do learn quicker than others...

 

Now...

For anyone buying a piece of equipment for their airplane.... we have learned this same lesson year after year...

1) waiting for GPS to be available... took forever...

2) waiting for GPS to handle approaches.... took forever and cost another 20amu...

3) waiting for GPS to handle vertical control for approaches... took more time and waas cost a few more AMUs...

4) Say you had a G1000, and big G said to you... Waas upgrades will be available in a year... at moderate costs.... then you find out a major snafu occurs... the economy slides, development money dries up, and you get stuck between The plane builder, the nav box builder, and the economy...

5) In the end... you are still PIC when it comes to your wallet...  you probably Won’t...

• Buy the A model of anything... the Bravo is much better... or the L model... without another engine option, like we have today...
• Hold off on buying something, until that new device is available....
• Buy something, expecting new technology to make it useable...

If you do... you are taking on a known risk...  

6) There is clearly a lot at stake when it comes to autopilots...  manufacturing and certification takes many different players, and a few extra unplanned AMUs...

Consider this a learning experience...

You will recognize UPOD/OPUD/SWAT  challenges each time a new company, or new product, or new sales guy comes along... 

This probably won’t make you feel better...  but it does explain how avionics and other technology coming to market takes forever to end up in your plane...

7) Being first in your neighborhood to buy something is called being on the leading edge...   being first to find the shortcomings of an OPUD... you are now on the bleeding edge...

8) It turns out somebody has an acronym for this sales 101 mistake already.... SSDD... 

It turns out you all know these case studies...  did you ever get drawn in?

Best regards,

-a-