Jeev

TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

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3 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I don't think the price difference is necessarily all that great.  TT is $5,000.  That gets you the box and 2 servos.  The GFC 500 is $7,000.  That too gets you the control head and 2 servos.  What makes the price of the Garmin more expensive is the fact that you need at least one G5 with a GMU11 and GAD29 or 29B.  That makes it another $3,000.  If you want dual G5's then it's another $2200.

However, if you are planning on getting rid of your current ADI/HSI anyway, that cost would be added to the cost of the TT too.  Or you could replace them with the Aspen.  On the other hand, if you like your current ADI/HSI, the TT then becomes about $5000+ cheaper for parts.

I fit in the first category.  Get rid of the KFC200 and vacuum system.  And the GFC has the option of electric trim and yaw dampener.  While the TT can provide auto-trim, you have to get the electric trim someplace other than TT because they don't have an electric trim option.  Same with yaw dampener.  Same with Dynon.  Now if Garmin would provide an STC for a stand alone electric trim option, I might look hard at the Dynon.  If I can wait that long.

Good points, if you are planing on doing a panel re-do and/or new ADI/HSI then Garmin and Dynon should definitely in the mix.  For those that just want to add a good autopilot to their existing set ups with low install costs TT seems to be the best fit.  Either way when you do get all that set up please post pics so I can drool :).

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3 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I fit in the first category.  Get rid of the KFC200 and vacuum system.  And the GFC has the option of electric trim and yaw dampener.  While the TT can provide auto-trim, you have to get the electric trim someplace other than TT because they don't have an electric trim option.  Same with yaw dampener.  Same with Dynon.  Now if Garmin would provide an STC for a stand alone electric trim option, I might look hard at the Dynon.  If I can wait that long.

I think @Jeev is dead on with his estimate. However, I’d add the 15k Garmin number will probably include electric trim.  

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On 7/24/2018 at 10:40 AM, MIm20c said:

I think @Jeev is dead on with his estimate. However, I’d add the 15k Garmin number will probably include electric trim.  

Ya, I agree.  Maybe even a little bit more.  $5200 for dual G5's.  $7000 for the GFC500.  $4000 - $5000 for the install.  Another $2000 for the electric trim and another $2000 for the yaw dampener.

Nice thing though is you can do it in stages and spread out the pain.  Dual G5's no autopilot, $5200 + install.  Add the 2 axis autopilot $7000 + install.  Add the electric trim, $1750 + install.  Add the yaw dampener, $1750 + install.

Edited by Bob - S50
typo

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I am looking at the TruTrak as an incomplete solution (at least at this point). There is no IAS climb capability, no ILS capability and limitation on RNAV approaches (700'). I do like the fact they are integrating with Aspen. I am sure they will address some if not all of these gaps but I won't spend the money until I know they are.
Rumor on the playground is that an Aspen will provide Trutrak ILS capabilities.

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Rumor on the playground is that an Aspen will provide Trutrak ILS capabilities.

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Maybe the playground has more on the IAS capability as well.


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I have heard these rumors as well but nothing from TruTrak yet, I really hope they come true.  I was going to get a G5 but definitely going to wait now.

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I have heard these rumors as well but nothing from TruTrak yet, I really hope they come true.  I was going to get a G5 but definitely going to wait now.

 

Well, tell them to spread those rumors. If not, some of their potential customers will end up with another company’s product.

 

Heck, if King can tell the world for 3 years that the KI-300 will be released, this quarter, next quarter, early next year, why can’t they indicate what is in their heads if not actually in the pipeline. That’s sales 101. Build up anticipation and demand. Look how anxious Peter Garmin is while he waits for the Ki-300. He’ll buy it the second it is released.

 

— I should have added, if King’s announcement 3 years ago was that the KI-300 would be released in 4 years, Peter might have ended up with an ancient technology Aspen in his panel. Heaven forbid!

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


Well, tell them to spread those rumors. If not, some of their potential customers will end up with another company’s product.

Heck, if King can tell the world for 3 years that the KI-300 will be released, this quarter, next quarter, early next year, why can’t they indicate what is in their heads if not actually in the pipeline. That’s sales 101. Build up anticipation and demand. Look how anxious Peter Garmin is while he waits for the Ki-300. He’ll buy it the second it is released.


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Totally agree with you! Since they have not told me directly I didn't want to confirm and unfortunatly I'm not at Oshkosh this year :unsure: to rattle the doors.  I will let you all know the second  I have any info.

Sanjeev

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On 7/24/2018 at 12:01 PM, Bob - S50 said:

Ya, I agree.  Maybe even a little bit more.  $5200 for dual G5's.  $7000 for the GFC500.  $4000 - $5000 for the install.  Another $2000 for the electric trim and another $2000 for the yaw dampener.

Nice think though is you can do it in stages and spread out the pain.  Dual G5's no autopilot, $5200 + install.  Add the 2 axis autopilot $7000 + install.  Add the electric trim, $1750 + install.  Add the yaw dampener, $1750 + install.

It's a nice idea, but depending on what you have it may increase the install costs quite a bit. For instance if I just did one G5 HSI with my KAP 150, then I have to have that integrated... and then de-integrated once the GFC500 comes along. If you have nothing at all now then it might make sense since the only added costs would be to get started on each additional piece, and presumably they could pre-wire the stuff for the next phase to reduce the install as they do the previous ones.

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Talked with Cory at TT (very knowledgeable). Looking at ~ 4 months for Mooney shipments. 700 foot limit will be a ways off. Evidently $500k for a 200 foot agl lightning certification.  ILS compatibility is dependent on aspen software code. 

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1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Talked with Cory at TT (very knowledgeable). Looking at ~ 4 months for Mooney shipments. 700 foot limit will be a ways off. Evidently $500k for a 200 foot agl lightning certification.  ILS compatibility is dependent on aspen software code. 

That's too bad.  With all the FAA emphasis on loss of control, one would think there would be an easier way to certify to lower minimums.  Less likely that the AFCS is a victim of lightning, than a loss of control on a low approach....which I think the accident statistics support.  Perhaps they should go for lower and put a limitation on the AFCS that says that the minimums are 700ft when within 20 miles of convective activity.  Most of us won't be shooting approaches to minimums when that close to a storm anyways....

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Seems like a lot of times in business the one with the most cash wins. Hate that this seems to be the case here too.

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Just saw this when i checked into Facebook. Still seems lacking compared to g5s and gfc500



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1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Just saw this when i checked into Facebook. Still seems lacking compared to g5s and gfc500

 


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Thanks, I just logged on to post this :).   Those were the the features that were expected with the Aspen that were brought up at the Vegas Avionics show so it looks like that is what we will have when Mooneys are approved, and yes less features than g5/GFC500. I still stand behind my earlier post in saying of you are planning on doing a full panel or replacing your AI/DG/HSI Garmin and Dynon are worth the consideration but if you just want a stand alone good autopilot or already have an Aspen TT is the way to go for the $$.   

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1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Just saw this when i checked into Facebook. Still seems lacking compared to g5s and gfc500

 


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Not a very good demo.  When he set and said now we are turning to 200, no it wasn't.  When he used the Aspen to set a heading of 270, it did not turn.  However, I assume they will actually work in a plane?

TT would still be a great option if all you want is a VFR autopilot to ease your workload on long cross-country flights.  Not everybody wants one that will fly approaches.

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That's too bad.  With all the FAA emphasis on loss of control, one would think there would be an easier way to certify to lower minimums.  Less likely that the AFCS is a victim of lightning, than a loss of control on a low approach....which I think the accident statistics support.  Perhaps they should go for lower and put a limitation on the AFCS that says that the minimums are 700ft when within 20 miles of convective activity.  Most of us won't be shooting approaches to minimums when that close to a storm anyways....


Just to be clear, TT will not disengage at 700 feet. In fact, it will continue the approach to the runway numbers. It is, however, not “legal” for you to use it below 700.


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5 hours ago, Hector said:

Just to be clear, TT will not disengage at 700 feet. In fact, it will continue the approach to the runway numbers. It is, however, not “legal” for you to use it below 700.
 

 

From the information I received it will in fact fly an ideal approach to almost 20 feet off the deck. Something I would never trust my stec with. I really want to see some feedback on poor weather (meaning bumpy strong crosswind) approaches with a short body.  Something that I don’t even try for with my stec as I can hand fly it more precisely. 

I’m still VERY interested in this unit.  There was a TT dealer with installed quotes under 7.5 advertising from FL.  That’s a least a 5 to 6k installed discount vs Garmin and stec even reusing my 25 YO servos. Or in CB terms I could get a free Jewel overhaul of my o360 if I went with a new TT vs a new complete stec AP. 

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From the information I received it will in fact fly an ideal approach to almost 20 feet off the deck. Something I would never trust my stec with. I really want to see some feedback on poor weather (meaning bumpy strong crosswind) approaches with a short body.  Something that I don’t even try for with my stec as I can hand fly it more precisely. 
I’m still VERY interested in this unit.  There was a TT dealer with installed quotes under 7.5 advertising from FL.  That’s a least a 5 to 6k installed discount vs Garmin and stec even reusing my 25 YO servos. Or in CB terms I could get a free Jewel overhaul of my o360 if I went with a new TT vs a new complete stec AP. 


Exactly. I’m on the same boat. My C has an aging Brittain AP that is working but who knows for how long. This is an affordable solution that adds more capability than I currently have. The installer in Florida is near my home and for 7.5K all in it’s hard to beat


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5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

From the information I received it will in fact fly an ideal approach to almost 20 feet off the deck. Something I would never trust my stec with. I really want to see some feedback on poor weather (meaning bumpy strong crosswind) approaches with a short body.  Something that I don’t even try for with my stec as I can hand fly it more precisely. 

I’m still VERY interested in this unit.  There was a TT dealer with installed quotes under 7.5 advertising from FL.  That’s a least a 5 to 6k installed discount vs Garmin and stec even reusing my 25 YO servos. Or in CB terms I could get a free Jewel overhaul of my o360 if I went with a new TT vs a new complete stec AP. 

Exactly the market for the TT, which includes me.  Based on the installs we have done (non Mooney) my targeted price for the Mooney including install is $7,250.  This includes 25 hrs labor at our shop rate of $90/hr, I will know a lot more when we get it installed in my J.  TruTrak has been great to work with and I am very impressed with the company.  They definitely have their priorities correct with fair priced hardware designed in an way that minimizes install cost.  Thanks to all of you here at Mooneyspace I have the first 10 Mooney slots reserved, please let me know if you would like me to add you to the list.  Given that I own one and my shop does a lot of work on Mooneys my goal is to have the best / least expensive Mooney Trutrak install.   

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23 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Not a very good demo.  When he set and said now we are turning to 200, no it wasn't.  When he used the Aspen to set a heading of 270, it did not turn.  However, I assume they will actually work in a plane?

TT would still be a great option if all you want is a VFR autopilot to ease your workload on long cross-country flights.  Not everybody wants one that will fly approaches.

Yeah, it looks like a snip-it and not really a demo but rather a showing of a few of the features. It's clear he is using an Aspen that is not running in a demo mode. The red chevrons gave that away. If they were smart, they would find one of their customers who has a working Aspen integration to show all of the capabilities. I would like to see how everything can be controlled through the Aspen.

Edited by Marauder

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Just an update - I spoke with Corey at TT and he said they are a few months from shipping and are finalizing the install manual.  As soon as he sends the manual I will post it for review so we all can get an Idea of the install.

 

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We have enough TruTrak installs under our belts now to confidently put some prices out.  Since the wiring, controller & servos will basically be the same regardless of the airframe and the only difference will be the mounting kit and control linkages real world numbers for the TruTrak are $5000 for the kit, we cap the labor at 25hrs @ $90/hr and if we do it under 25 hours we only charge you real time.  Based on the installs we have done on Pipers & Cessnas the first install was 35 hours (billed for 25), the second install was right around 22 hours (billed for 22 hrs) and after a few more my guys have it down to 25 or under which includes finding and fixing small issues related to the aircraft or wiring.  So when the Mooney kit is approved I can guarantee that at our shop (EGA Aviation / Wolf Aviation @ KVGT) the total installed TruTrak Vision system will not cost more than $7,250 and possibly less. That assumes that TruTrak will keep the price of the Mooney kit the same at $5000.

I took part in my first flight test of the TruTrak Vision over the weekend in a PA28 and was very impressed with the smoothness of the autopilot in turbulence and smooth air.  The GPSS and LPV coupled approach were spot on and very impressive.  I put the aircraft in a 60deg bank with 10deg nose up let go, hit the blue auto level button and the aircraft smoothly returned to level flight, really cool!

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