TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[Jeev]

27 minutes ago, nosky2high said:

Let me know if it makes sense to pre-install the wiring harness. I’ll be replacing my windows and windshields soon so it might be wise to go ahead and install the wiring harness as well. 

 Based the installs we have done unless you can get ahold of the servo mounts and actual TruTrak harness I don’t think pre wiring would be advantageous. I am waiting for word on if they can pre-sell those.

[Navi]

1 hour ago, nosky2high said:

Let me know if it makes sense to pre-install the wiring harness. I’ll be replacing my windows and windshields soon so it might be wise to go ahead and install the wiring harness as well. 

Makes perfect sense to me...  Other manufacturers do it..  I expect you would have to "buy" the harness as a part, and ask them to "credit " you the harness cost when they ship the rest of the system without the harness...

The wiring harness has significant extra length, and as long as they can tell you where the servos are approximately located, you can run the harness and put your interior panels back in.

Nav

[cliffy]

Well, I called today  :-(     The girl on the phone tried to find someone to answer my question on where the harness was going to be run BUT she couldn't find anyone to talk to me BUT said she was told they haven't decided where it will run yet. She alluded to "months yet". Why do I get the feeling they are hiding from us? Something doesn't seem right to me. 

Hmmmm- sorely disappointed. My opinion of the operation is now in jeopardy. They really need to come out with a press release telling the true story of where we Mooney folks sit. At least  I have  Brittain Accu-Track  until then. I've had a few of my own businesses over the years and I always kept my customers informed on what was going on. 

I can see no reason why I couldn't run wires identical to the wire runs in the 172 (wires only) behind the left side to the hell hole area so I don't have to pull down the entire interior in 6 months again if they use that area for the wire run. Sure, I'd have to slice them in to the harness but that's easier than pulling down the entire interior. I'll just cut off the Brittain tubing at each end and leave it behind the wall when the time comes. It doesn't weight anything at all.

I'm going to move on with what I'm doing and if it happens, it happens. Not in a real good mood right now. I really wanted that autopilot (money is in the bank) but I'm not sure now that its going to happen. 

[Navi]

5 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Well, I called today  :-(     The girl on the phone tried to find someone to answer my question on where the harness was going to be run BUT she couldn't find anyone to talk to me BUT said she was told they haven't decided where it will run yet. She alluded to "months yet". Why do I get the feeling they are hiding from us? Something doesn't seem right to me. 

Hmmmm- sorely disappointed. My opinion of the operation is now in jeopardy. They really need to come out with a press release telling the true story of where we Mooney folks sit. At least  I have  Brittain Accu-Track  until then. I've had a few of my own businesses over the years and I always kept my customers informed on what was going on. 

I can see no reason why I couldn't run wires identical to the wire runs in the 172 (wires only) behind the left side to the hell hole area so I don't have to pull down the entire interior in 6 months again if they use that area for the wire run. Sure, I'd have to slice them in to the harness but that's easier than pulling down the entire interior. I'll just cut off the Brittain tubing at each end and leave it behind the wall when the time comes. It doesn't weight anything at all.

I'm going to move on with what I'm doing and if it happens, it happens. Not in a real good mood right now. I really wanted that autopilot (money is in the bank) but I'm not sure now that its going to happen. 

 

Who is this "some girl" that doesn't know anything but offers information anyway?

Ask for Zach. If he is not avbl, call later... again.. May take a couple of tries. He is the one that designs the systems and the installations. He is on the test flights.. He is in his office only about half the day, rest of time in the air or out in the hangar on test installs.. He may have no information, but he is, at least, the person closest to the project.

Caveat... Until the final wire routing is approved in the STC, the route is NOT FINAL..  FAA may come back and want it changed...

FWIW.. :(

[cliffy]

Just to be "perfect" in my posting- I tried to get Zach be he wasn't there, I tried for anyone else and NO ONE wanted to talk. She tried to get someone but no one would come to the phone. Obviously "the girl" was the phone operator and what ever else she does. Her comment about "many months" was a slip of the tongue which she quickly cut off but it was evident to me that she felt she wasn't supposed to say that. 

Secondly, to do a small "Minor Alteration" to an STC is no big deal. Document correctly and its fine. IF and I say IF they don't use that area for the wire run then no harm no foul. I'd go where they say to run it. Can't see the big issue. 

My opinions stay as I posted.They're my opinions and no one elses. If someone else has better, more current information please post it so my questions and concerns can go away. 

[NJMac]

At this rate the gfc500 will be available in short bodies nearly the same time as the Trutrac. At that point, the choices get harder. TT had the timeline advantage but that's quickly slipping away.

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[DustinNwind]

On 4/19/2019 at 9:23 PM, cliffy said:

Just to be "perfect" in my posting- I tried to get Zach be he wasn't there, I tried for anyone else and NO ONE wanted to talk. She tried to get someone but no one would come to the phone. Obviously "the girl" was the phone operator and what ever else she does. Her comment about "many months" was a slip of the tongue which she quickly cut off but it was evident to me that she felt she wasn't supposed to say that. 

Secondly, to do a small "Minor Alteration" to an STC is no big deal. Document correctly and its fine. IF and I say IF they don't use that area for the wire run then no harm no foul. I'd go where they say to run it. Can't see the big issue. 

My opinions stay as I posted.They're my opinions and no one elses. If someone else has better, more current information please post it so my questions and concerns can go away. 

Sounds like the same girl I talked to as well. She told me it won't be STCed till the end of the year as they haven't started the paperwork for Mooney and hasn't been of concern till the Cessna stuff was finished. I'm assuming this was also a slip of the tongue. 

 

Navi, why haven't they put out a press release when clearly there is a lot of miss communication?

[Navi]

6 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

Sounds like the same girl I talked to as well. She told me it won't be STCed till the end of the year as they haven't started the paperwork for Mooney and hasn't been of concern till the Cessna stuff was finished. I'm assuming this was also a slip of the tongue. 

 

Navi, why haven't they put out a press release when clearly there is a lot of miss communication?

 Hmmmm….  Dono…

Are they (management) aware of this "miscommunication" ? Has anyone here told them?

Last word I have (from Steve  over a week ago) was that they hoped to bundle the Firmware Update for  the G5 and Aspen connection and a couple of small bugs, with the Mooney STC,  and hoping for it to be available by OSH..  (I am fine with that.. ) Steve was forthcoming to my questions and was clear with their intent, and very clear in  stating the hurdles they are facing.. I have no idea who this female is with different information, nor have I heard of a name attached.

 Pushing individual approvals though the FAA system is exhausting resources, so, like others have learned, they are bundling a few this time..

Delays expected. Autopilots and anything else attached to the controls of any aircraft are now under intense scrutiny. (Boeing/Cirrus) FAA has a gun pointed at them…. The TT STC for the PA- 32s and Cessnas was SENT BACK into the system for "another look" , delaying their approval letter several weeks... Work has to be done with Aspen whose resources are tapped out  with other pressing tech and approval issues. Garmin is NO help. TT is on their own for G5 integration, and it is suspected Garmin is about to change their data communication protocol.

"Headwinds" everywhere.. :(

N

[Navi]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 1:23 AM, cliffy said:

Just to be "perfect" in my posting- I tried to get Zach be he wasn't there, I tried for anyone else and NO ONE wanted to talk. She tried to get someone but no one would come to the phone. Obviously "the girl" was the phone operator and what ever else she does. Her comment about "many months" was a slip of the tongue which she quickly cut off but it was evident to me that she felt she wasn't supposed to say that. 

Secondly, to do a small "Minor Alteration" to an STC is no big deal. Document correctly and its fine. IF and I say IF they don't use that area for the wire run then no harm no foul. I'd go where they say to run it. Can't see the big issue. 

My opinions stay as I posted.They're my opinions and no one elses. If someone else has better, more current information please post it so my questions and concerns can go away. 

>>Secondly, to do a small "Minor Alteration" to an STC is no big deal. Document correctly and its fine. IF and I say IF they don't use that area for the wire run then no harm no foul. I'd go where they say to run it. Can't see the big issue. 

You are correct... not a "big issue"..  But it appears to take as much TIME to get a small change through the FAA process..  as a big one..

Check my post above for the latest I have  on the Vizion, from Steve and Zach..  FWIW.. 

N

Edited April 21, 2019 by Navi

[Navi]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 8:19 AM, NJMac said:

At this rate the gfc500 will be available in short bodies nearly the same time as the Trutrac. At that point, the choices get harder. TT had the timeline advantage but that's quickly slipping away.

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Hi Mac!

What is the latest on the GFC 500?

Last I have is dated... :(

Nav

[cliffy]

Something I don't understand

If Garmin is bucking the integration to the point of changing all the communication software (I can understand that from the legal side as they would not have control of what gets hooked up to their boxes if the connection key was out there) and Aspen is tapped out for help on the communications software leaving TT to go it alone with connections then why attach each to the other, in one submission,  so that a delay in one will cause a delay in all?

Or, is the FAA driving the mutual submission so that the delays in any one of the packages on their end will delay the entire combined package? Or does the FAA plan to separate the packages once inside the office?

I just don't understand why delay one submission while waiting to assemble another submission? There may be a valid reason. I just don't see it right now. 

The Boeing deal just might be the "ax over the head " for any small operator that wants to bring even NORSE equipment to market at a cost effective level. With the report of a Justice Dept investigation into it, making it a criminal investigation, in which, if true, the FAA might be right in the middle of it for lack of oversight,  if we thought it was difficult to get things approved before, we may not have seen anything yet by the end of this Boeing issue. NORSE might be a dead issue in the end for "certified" airplanes (especially with autopilots). Its a "short cut" to certification just like Boeing used to certify the MAX without a new type rating. Only time will tell.

Additionally, world wide the FAA was thought to be the gold standard for certification and now many countries are saying even when the FAA gets done THEY will do their own certification investigations to verify the FAAs work. This really is not something that has reared its head before. Most countries have accepted the FAA word on safety and certification. That may be a thing of the past now, how far down it drops in aviation from 121 to 91 is any ones guess.

Just thinking about the future  and possible outcomes. Lots of unanswered questions.

 

[cliffy]

1 hour ago, Navi said:

Last word I have (from Steve  over a week ago) was that they hoped to bundle the Firmware Update for  the G5 and Aspen connection and a couple of small bugs, with the Mooney STC,  and hoping for it to be available by OSH..  (I am fine with that.. )

That would be acceptable if it is true. If on the other hand it goes until the end of the year without any formal commentary that would be troublesome.

[Navi]

37 minutes ago, cliffy said:

That would be acceptable if it is true. If on the other hand it goes until the end of the year without any formal commentary that would be troublesome.

Agreed!  But it is the best info I have at this time...

It is an interesting situation, - of all the industries I have been involved with over a long business career... I cannot recall so much "noise" among customers in many  other industries frantically awaiting the announcements of  products..  The EXTREME pent-up demand I guess… 

Years ago the software industry had a run with this..  I sense this is a new challenge for some of the companies new to navigating the FAA and other challenges of this market..

The wise business plan (IMHO) is to ONLY make a formal announcement when ready to ship.... and I guess that is what we are seeing..  I have seen "comments" and "information" labeled by others as "promises" far to often.. throw in a few anxious people that " hear what they want to hear".... and It can get out of control..

A company can only comment on so much, and not on a delivery date until it happens, SO MUCH of the process being not under their control..

FWIW...

N

[Navi]

>>Additionally, world wide the FAA was thought to be the gold standard for certification and now many countries are saying even when the FAA gets done THEY will do their own certification investigations to verify the FAAs work. This really is not something that has reared its head before. Most countries have accepted the FAA word on safety and certification. That may be a thing of the past now, how far down it drops in aviation from 121 to 91 is any ones guess.

 

I think you have a point here..

Here in Canada, TC has rubber stamped the FAA STCs for years.. To wit ….."An American made" "Major alteration" to an "America made aircraft" with an FAA STC is good to go in Canada.. The process is formal and is usually done within 30 days. Only STC's Canada issues is for a Canadian made plane or a Canadian "major mod".

There is now political pressure here to change that after the Boeing fiasco...

More delays of safety equipment is now possible here as well...

:(

 

 

[NJMac]

Hi Mac!
What is the latest on the GFC 500?
Last I have is dated...
Nav

Between our lawn app business over selling our sales goal this spring and trying to get my wife knocked up, i haven't had much time to pay attention. Sorry, cant help with that. Just sitting on the sidelines waiting for an announcement eventually.

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[Jesse Saint]

One main reason TT is waiting to have all software figured out before submitting any of it is so they don’t have 4 different versions of software floating around. It is a time-consuming process for them to update software of the programmer (auto pilot head) as well as the calibration process it must go through. They don’t want to get the bug fixes approved, then the G5, then the Aspen and have to update some units 3 times. There has been talk of submitting the bug fixes sooner than the others, but that’s a moving target as TT is a small company putting a great product out at a revolutionary price point. They can’t just throw resources at it like big companies can simply because they don’t have them. The fact that they have released an auto pilot for $5,000 for all 172, 177, 180, 182, 185, PA-28 and PA-32’s is an amazing feat. Next to the market will be hopefully ALL Mooney’s. Then maybe Comanches and twin Comanches, then maybe Bonanzas. 

[TonyK]

@NJMac  Careful with that wife thing.  It has been noticed in the past that the practice often is more fun than the product! :-)

[Navi]

59 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Between our lawn app business over selling our sales goal this spring and trying to get my wife knocked up, i haven't had much time to pay attention. Sorry, cant help with that. Just sitting on the sidelines waiting for an announcement eventually.

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OK....  So you're forgiven... 

Nav

[Navi]

From the Bendix/TT Webinar last night...

Auto pitch trim is DEFINATELY on the TruTrak radar though, certed approaches and IAS select is also there.. (both removed from the original plan to expedite the faster STC approval)

 

It was emphasized in the Webinar that TT and Bendix are committed to integrate with other equipments. Integration with the AeroVue Touch will happen.. TT has been approached by others... re: feeding data to the TT. Avidyne is looking to be able to feed "stepped down" vertical guidance data to the TT.

 

Garmin is not playing here at all.. In fact, strong rumor is that Garmin is going to change their proprietary data format to KEEP others from playing.. Its their business plan, but good luck with that...

 

Andrew did state that  the Mooneys are next, Comanchies and Twincos are  to follow to the AML., they are not sure after that, probably Grumman and Bos...

 

Anybody contemplating the addition of an AP really should have jumped on that Webinar last night. SUCH good info related to APs in general.

 

Beginning to look like TT has captured the "low cost" AP market in a very big way. It may be lacking some features for now, but the way it flies these little planes is nothing short of spectacular for a little 5 K$ piece of gear. From my own experience flying with the TT in our Warrior, you can thread needles in the sky with this AP.  The accuracy holding directions, tracks and alts is deadly.

 

If your new "whizzit" cannot talk to the TruTrak and make it listen, your future market may be  limited.  From the Webinar, it was evident Andrew is pursuing an aggressive plan to make the TT feature rich in the integration with other equipments, perhaps by inserting a menu to tell it "whom" it is playing with. That could activate features that the other manufacturer worked with TT to make their PFD the choice..

 

 FWIW..

 

N

 

 

[David_H]

It does look as if TT is looking to position itself for a buyout.

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to ask the question: Is Bendix King / Honeywell actively looking to acquire TruTrak?

[NJMac]

It does look as if TT is looking to position itself for a buyout.
Perhaps this is an appropriate time to ask the question: Is Bendix King / Honeywell actively looking to acquire TruTrak?

Or do they already have an equity stake in trutrac?

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[Navi]

2 hours ago, NJMac said:

Or do they already have an equity stake in trutrac?

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 Best information so far is that TT is now wholly owned by Andrew..

For David...

I have bought and sold companies and assisted others in equity buyouts over my working career. I don't see the usual signs of them "preparing" for a buyout. The characteristics of a company "shopping" its equity are USUALLY obvious, and nothing in their marketing and production plan or history is displaying these characteristics. I think they would have to reorganise some business elements first.. An "equity partner" would be closer, but for a complete buyout,  unless under duress, many things would have to change before any of my (past) clients would be interested..

I have no inside information however, I am just a user of their product.. What little bit that I see certainly does not position them as a strong acquisition target...     What are you seeing?

Not withstanding, there may be a price on anything... :)

Nav

[David_H]

BK hasn't had a product that's generated much of an interest for GA for a very long time. It's difficult to understand why an up-and-coming company would want to tie their name (TT) to a company (BK) that's proven it's no longer able to bring anything competitive to the GA market. A business decision such as that would likely require significant financial motivation... or perhaps financial troubles.

The webinar was brought to everyone by Honeywell / Bendix King. Perhaps BK just felt the need to help the guys at TT out.

[steingar]

4 minutes ago, David_H said:

BK hasn't had a product that's generated much of an interest for GA for a very long time. It's difficult to understand why an up-and-coming company would want to tie their name (TT) to a company (BK) that's proven it's no longer able to bring anything competitive to the GA market. A business decision such as that would likely require significant financial motivation... or perhaps financial troubles.

The webinar was brought to everyone by Honeywell / Bendix King. Perhaps BK just felt the need to help the guys at TT out.

Sorry, but there's a Bendix King radio sitting in almost every panel in the fleet.  They may have gone to seed, but I can see why an up and coming company would want to hook onto their coattails, they're name is huge and recognizable to just about every pilot.  Moreover, their legacy products are nothing short of legendary, most have worked flawlessly for decades.

That said, I hope these guys are able to deliver.  Low cost autopilots would be a game changer in GA and a huge boost to safety.

[David_H]

4 minutes ago, steingar said:

Sorry, but there's a Bendix King radio sitting in almost every panel in the fleet.  They may have gone to seed, but I can see why an up and coming company would want to hook onto their coattails, they're name is huge and recognizable to just about every pilot.  Moreover, their legacy products are nothing short of legendary, most have worked flawlessly for decades.

That said, I hope these guys are able to deliver.  Low cost autopilots would be a game changer in GA and a huge boost to safety.

I can't remember the last time I've heard anyone say Bendix King knows how to deliver. BK is no longer the company that produced the products of their past.

It'll be interesting to see how many people will line up to buy the TT autopilot once BK puts their sticker on it. That sticker will do nothing but add expense to the product.