10 Hrs. Dual? Really?

[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, Jpflysdfw said:

Not to hijack this thread, and on a related topic, what is the prevailing opinion regarding the best insurance providers for Mooney owners?  I see Falcon advertise in MAPA but have no real intel on their reputation and/or whether there is one or two Mooney “go-to” insurers. With the many decades of experience on this board, I suspect there are some common themes.  

As a soon to be Mooney newbie, who should I be looking at?

Different underwriters target or avoid different segments of the market from year to year so an agent is important. Mike Travers has been great for me:

https://www.traversaviation.com/

[carusoam]

Until you get an answer...

Consider what you can do with those ten hours...

1) You may want to get to know the handling of the mid-body as well as you know the C and the C140...

2) expect to need two days for complete TT. One day is good, but if you haven’t experienced being cognitively tired... a good TT session can be pretty tiring. The second day is there to show you how good you are when cognitively refreshed.  A third day is all about reviewing the plane’s cross country skills...

3) IR Flying has a bunch of power settings and strategies that are good to copy from a CFII that really knows Mooneys.  If you are still learning or re-learning these strategies... 10 hours won’t be enough...

4) Let’s face it... you are moving up the ladder... it’s not just flying around the pattern on sunny days...

5) Take a really long cross country, see some mountains, climb over them...

6) See some weather, fly through it... review the anti-ice devices, when and how to use them...what happens when slush covers the air filter?

7) Find Some nice cross winds, tune your landing skills...

8) whether it is two hours or ten hours... it’s a homework assignment.  Do it.  Get the most out of it.

9) Sure you could do this solo.  At a higher risk of bending some metal...

10) Power-on stalls, the kind that come with a go-around are worth exploring. Go-arounds themselves are worth exploring... More power is your friend, until you find out the first time what the plane wants to do this close to the ground with full flaps and full power at slow speed...

11) use the mandatory requirement to get something you want.  

12) Do as much preparation in advance... read the POH... take notes on each thing that stands out...

13) This is kind of like break-in flights on a new engine... so many requirements... can be done solo too... just better to have somebody along for the ride...

14) learn to use all of the various nav hardware pieces, while flying under the hood...

15) Take somebody along that is qualified, elevate your level of safety, while taking some notes, and learning as many new things as possible... 

16) If you get cognitively tired while doing the TT... it is great to have somebody next to you that isn’t tired and knows your new to you plane...

17) fly around LOP, Check the Gami spread

18) Fly while getting the most out of the AP, and hand fly with the same level of accuracy...

19) Study up on the art of T/O calculations, then do it using current DA.

20) For comparison... I did a couple of days of TT moving up to the O... the first day was exhausting... not physically tiring... but the rust wasn’t coming off... After a good night’s rest... the rust was magically missing... just by sleeping.  I was 44 years old...

It is different enough to be worthy of a few extra hours of TT.

Flying a great cross-country plane comes with a can of extra stuff... the longer the airframe the bigger the can...

The more full the instrument panel, the bigger the can...

There is so much on the other side of the transition that is so worth it...

The F makes such an excellent forever-plane.  Transition is such a small portion of it. Do it because you want to...not because an insurance guy read the script...

Build yourself a chart... three columns.... C140, M20C, M20F... fill in all the data... Vr, Vx, Vy, Vso............. while near empty and at max gross...

Need a recomendation for a good Transition Trainer? 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

Great advice carusoam!  Thanks!

[MyNameIsNobody]

11 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Insurance is weird. One underwriter is happy with a related make and model. Another wants to drill down and be very specific. Even if they are with the same insurance company.

Weird?  You got that right.  

 

[chrixxer]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

I did notice that the F lands differently than my C. Not better or worse, just different. 

The mid-bodies definitely land a bit differently; I barely touched the trim wheel in the E, the F requires it - I trim significantly nose up on final with the F. But I got the hang of it in like maybe 5 landings (except when I have @SantosDumont on board, then I always seem to get blown off centerline a bit  - but I digress). 

[MyNameIsNobody]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Until you get an answer...

Consider what you can do with those ten hours...

1) You may want to get to know the handling of the mid-body as well as you know the C and the C140...

2) expect to need two days for complete TT. One day is good, but if you haven’t experienced being cognitively tired... a good TT session can be pretty tiring. The second day is there to show you how good you are when cognitively refreshed.  A third day is all about reviewing the plane’s cross country skills...

3) IR Flying has a bunch of power settings and strategies that are good to copy from a CFII that really knows Mooneys.  If you are still learning or re-learning these strategies... 10 hours won’t be enough...

4) Let’s face it... you are moving up the ladder... it’s not just flying around the pattern on sunny days...

5) Take a really long cross country, see some mountains, climb over them...

6) See some weather, fly through it... review the anti-ice devices, when and how to use them...what happens when slush covers the air filter?

7) Find Some nice cross winds, tune your landing skills...

8) whether it is two hours or ten hours... it’s a homework assignment.  Do it.  Get the most out of it.

9) Sure you could do this solo.  At a higher risk of bending some metal...

10) Power-on stalls, the kind that come with a go-around are worth exploring. Go-arounds themselves are worth exploring... More power is your friend, until you find out the first time what the plane wants to do this close to the ground with full flaps and full power at slow speed...

11) use the mandatory requirement to get something you want.  

12) Do as much preparation in advance... read the POH... take notes on each thing that stands out...

13) This is kind of like break-in flights on a new engine... so many requirements... can be done solo too... just better to have somebody along for the ride...

14) learn to use all of the various nav hardware pieces, while flying under the hood...

15) Take somebody along that is qualified, elevate your level of safety, while taking some notes, and learning as many new things as possible... 

16) If you get cognitively tired while doing the TT... it is great to have somebody next to you that isn’t tired and knows your new to you plane...

17) fly around LOP, Check the Gami spread

18) Fly while getting the most out of the AP, and hand fly with the same level of accuracy...

19) Study up on the art of T/O calculations, then do it using current DA.

20) For comparison... I did a couple of days of TT moving up to the O... the first day was exhausting... not physically tiring... but the rust wasn’t coming off... After a good night’s rest... the rust was magically missing... just by sleeping.  I was 44 years old...

It is different enough to be worthy of a few extra hours of TT.

Flying a great cross-country plane comes with a can of extra stuff... the longer the airframe the bigger the can...

The more full the instrument panel, the bigger the can...

There is so much on the other side of the transition that is so worth it...

The F makes such an excellent forever-plane.  Transition is such a small portion of it. Do it because you want to...not because an insurance guy read the script...

Build yourself a chart... three columns.... C140, M20C, M20F... fill in all the data... Vr, Vx, Vy, Vso............. while near empty and at max gross...

Need a recomendation for a good Transition Trainer? 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry (not sorry) this just strikes me as length condescension.  A short body Mooney can do what an F does (as stated).  A short bodied Mooney is a “Forever” Mooney in every way that a Mid or Long body Mooney is.  You can put just as much in the panel, fly as far with extended tanks, EVEN over mountains (if doing so in a single engine plane is your thing).  I roll my eyes in your general direction (A)...

[Jpflysdfw]

 @KLRDMD and @Bob_Belville thanks for the insurance contact info, much appreciated!

[MBDiagMan]

Yes my C was my forever plane, at least forever until my shoulder wouldn’t let me manage the gear any more.  It was forever enough for me to pour money into the panel.  Thankfully I am bringing the panel improvements with me.

[ilovecornfields]

18 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Got the insurance quote for the F I am in the process of buying from Don Maxwell.  The price and everything is reasonable, but I am going from well over 100 hours in a C to an F and they want me to have 10 hours duel.  I was shocked.  I can make this work without too much trouble because I am working on my IR, so I figure we can just go from the Cessna to the Mooney for ten hours of hoodwork, and it will be ten hours of dual.  He has plenty of Mooney time in his past before going on to A Hawker and King Airs.

The hassle will be the logistics of getting the plane home.  On the good side it is only a 45 nM flight to get her to her new home.

I guess that answers the question about transition training. ;-)

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, I got my quote from Falcon.  They only want a CFI checkout.  They are $103 cheaper on annual premium, but rather than $0/$0 not in motion/in motion deductible, they have $250/$1,000 deductible.

[kortopates]

35 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Okay, I got my quote from Falcon.  They only want a CFI checkout.  They are $103 cheaper on annual premium, but rather than $0/$0 not in motion/in motion deductible, they have $250/$1,000 deductible.

That's strictly a personal choice. Obviously if your crystal ball tells you won't have any claims your first year you could take the one hundred savings now, or possibly be out a $1K more if that terrible gear up happens or even hitting a pot hole hole dip with the prop. Roll the dice and decide what you think is best for you. 

But I wouldn't put that much emphasis on the dual requirements since you intend to work on your instrument rating asap.

Edited July 17, 2018 by kortopates

[gsxrpilot]

49 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Okay, I got my quote from Falcon.  They only want a CFI checkout.  They are $103 cheaper on annual premium, but rather than $0/$0 not in motion/in motion deductible, they have $250/$1,000 deductible.

Did you ask Falcon for a 0/0 deductible? 

Same situation for me when I switched to them. It came with a deductible. I asked for 0/0, they gave it to me, didn't change the price.

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks Paul!  I will give that a shot.

[jaylw314]

46 minutes ago, kortopates said:

That's strictly a personal choice. Obviously if your crystal ball tells you won't have any claims your first year you could take the one hundred savings now, or possibly be out a $1K more if that terrible gear up happens or even hitting a pot hole hole dip with the prop. Roll the dice and decide what you think is best for you. 

But I wouldn't put that much emphasis on the dual requirements since you intend to work on your instrument rating asap.

Given how expensive these suckers cost to maintain, even a $1k deductible seems like chump change.  If there's a difference in cost between that and no deductible, it's probably worth it.

[steingar]

Just do it. I had 10 hours to get into my C after ten years in a Cherokee, and it wasn't nearly enough.  I could have avoided a very expensive mishap had I more training and had I really intuitively understood the aircraft's energy and its management.

I flew my instructor's Acclaim, and even though I have lots of hours in my C I think I'd have needed at least 10 to fly that proficiently.  Training is never bad and rarely wasted.  Congrats on the F, fly the wings off it.

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

Okay, I got my quote from Falcon.  They only want a CFI checkout.  They are $103 cheaper on annual premium, but rather than $0/$0 not in motion/in motion deductible, they have $250/$1,000 deductible.

Who did the first quote? Something isn't right. Falcon and all the other brokers are shopping the same few underwriters. Unless you went to a non-aviation broker for the first quote the quotes shouldn't have differed because of the broker.

 

-Robert

[mooniac15u]

15 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Who did the first quote? Something isn't right. Falcon and all the other brokers are shopping the same few underwriters. Unless you went to a non-aviation broker for the first quote the quotes shouldn't have differed because of the broker.

 

-Robert

The first broker probably shopped it as zero time in type and Falcon probably got him credit for his M20C time.

[RobertGary1]

29 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

The first broker probably shopped it as zero time in type and Falcon probably got him credit for his M20C time.

That makes sense. A good reason to use an aviation broker.  I could see a non Aviation broker not understanding that insurance considers all M20’s to be the same. 

-Robert

[MBDiagMan]

Okay!  You guys always help!

I went back to her and got 0 deductible for $30 extra per year.  It is still about $70 less than the first quote which was for AOPA.  AOPA  has done pretty well on insurance ever since I bought my Cessna ten years ago.  As far as I can tell there are none of the people left at AOPA that I dealt with ten years ago.

[kortopates]

... I could see a non Aviation broker not understanding that insurance considers all M20’s to be the same. 
-Robert

Most don't, and we all know as pilots time in a C model for example carrys over very little to an Acclaim.
But I would agree short body to short body etc, but not NA to Turbo as another difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kortopates]

Okay!  You guys always help!
I went back to her and got 0 deductible for $30 extra per year.  It is still about $70 less than the first quote which was for AOPA.  AOPA  has done pretty well on insurance ever since I bought my Cessna ten years ago.  As far as I can tell there are none of the people left at AOPA that I dealt with ten years ago.

The only thing left is consideration between the 2 underwriters IMO. Some have a much better reputation than others and differences in policy that would make the $70 a no brainer to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DonMuncy]

The insurance broker does not set the rates, only the carriers they get quotes from. (Although good brokers may sway the carrier a little in your favor with the details; like how many dual hours will be required.) So the broker really doesn't affect the amount you are going to pay. Also, in the event of a claim, the adjuster for the carrier decides what they are going to pay. However a good broker will go to bat for you in dealing with the carrier and help you lot. I have used Falcon for many years. They are good, knowledgeable people, and I do not hesitate to recommend them. 

[Danb]

Agreed without question Don, my broker informed me a few times my rate came in higher, he notified them I get MAPA yearly training and I fly with him occasionally ( he’s a Designated Examiner) then it comes back same rate as last year, I believe the broker can alter the quote by propping us up.

[RobertGary1]

I switch underwriters most years to whomever has the best rate. I've had a few claims and every underwriter I've had has been great. I've always used SouthWest Aviation as my broker. I"m told that once I get to be old I need to stop changing underwriters as they are reluctant to write new policies for old guys. But for now I'll enjoy the rates. The market changes often and high time retract owners are often fought over.

 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

34 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

The insurance broker does not set the rates, only the carriers they get quotes from. 

I suspect some non-aviation brokers aren't aware of who the underwriters are and miss some . But I guess some guy's first move is to call up their local broker who sold them their home and auto and get a quote.

-Robert