Marina airport crash / fatality

[kortopates]

I never thought any of the very good discussion on slipping seat rails was ever meant in the context of what MUST of  happened to the pilot but merely a good possibility - as good as any of many possibilities. But one that brought up a very good discussion of how to be on guard for it. All very positive IMO and entirely appropriate since this is when folks are most interested in learning from what if possibilities.

FWIW, I have had my seat pop out twice on takeoff. Luckily I had the benefit of exactly this type of discussion many years ago. It was from exactly such a discussion as this that  I got educated on this issue well enough that I was prepared enough to stay safe. The best precaution IMO is as  @Skates97 says above, be sure to actually push down on the seat locking mechanism to make sure it's in positively when you position your seat. Not just let it pop into position. Then secondly, and most importantly,  make sure you let go of the yoke while your seat is slipping back to rear seat. As long as the aircraft is properly trimmed for takeoff, you'll only soil your underwear by the time you get your self back up front since a properly trimmed aircraft will be okay for a few seconds. But this underlines the importance of being properly trimmed for takeoff. But it was exactly one of these hypothetical discussion inspired by an accident that educated me enough to be prepared and I am sure this thread will likely save some one else in the future that wasn't aware of this till now and learns about this as I did.  Just let go of the yoke as @MyNameIsNobody said above. (although I didn't understand the part on the releasing the seat belt since its attached to the seat - anyway I don't recall needing to undo the belt to pull myself back up front).

I am a bit embarrassed it happened to me twice before I replaced all seat rails. But the first time I blamed it more on not having the seat positively locked into the holes. But the second time I realized the holes were just too rounded/worn. I didn't need further convincing with a third event and at the next annual I was down for weeks as I replaced all 4 seat rails which not an easy a job. 

Our seat rails do appear to be identical to Cessna's which have an AD that requires them now to be replaced on schedule of hours - no longer on condition with a go-no go gauge. 

[Mooney in Oz]

In my view, the discussion within this thread has been nothing but respectful to the poor soul who lost his life and very beneficial to all of us, plus I'm sure those who read this thread but not participate.  This is no different to discussions that take place within other aircraft type forums following a sad loss, whatever the circumstance.  

 @MyNameIsNobody and @kortopates correctly advise to let go of the yoke in this situation.  However, this can be quite difficult as it is a natural tendency following the initial shock to grab onto the first object we can due to the shock itself and to stop the sudden backward force. That object is the yoke as we are already holding it which can result in a tighter grip.  Where this discussion comes into merit is important advice and reminder to resist this temptation and release the grip.

It is something I have not considered until reading this thread, even though it happened to me twice many years ago in a Piper Aerostar after takeoff where I retained my grip of the yoke as both times the seat did not slide completely back and luckily not enough to cause controllability issues.  The suddenness was extremely frightening and something I'll never forget.

This discussion is so beneficial it could have been a thread relating to our seat rails on its own. It is just sad it relates to the loss of one of our own. 

[gsxrpilot]

26 minutes ago, Mooney in Oz said:

 @MyNameIsNobody and @kortopates correctly advise to let go of the yoke in this situation.  However, this can be quite difficult as it is a natural tendency following the initial shock to grab onto the first object we can due to the shock itself and to stop the sudden backward force. That object is the yoke as we are already holding it which can result in a tighter grip.  Where this discussion comes into merit is important advice and reminder to resist this temptation and release the grip.

Thus my technique to take hold of the center windshield bar at rotation. I can always come back to the throttle if I need to, and at rotation speed we're going flying anyway. But with a hand on the windshield bar, if the seat broke loose, I will naturally pull on the bar and not the yoke. It also makes it easier to let go of the yoke.

This is a Mooney specific technique...

[DXB]

The seat locking discussion has been productive for me irrespective of the actual cause of this tragedy - I'd never given it much thought, and clearly others have.  Personal takeaways from the discussion:

-I checked my seat rails for condition.  I found some wear in the couple of holes behind the one where I lock my seat but not in mine.  Prior owners must have been taller than me. Unsurprisingly the copilot seat rail holes showed wear across a wider range.  My passenger briefing already includes discussion of seat locking and what to do (or more importantly not to do) if it becomes unlatched on takeoff roll, but I will give more emphasis going forward.  

-Maybe consider leaving the pilot seat locked in the same position all the time if you're the only one who flies the plane.  I'm 5'8" I have little trouble getting in or out without moving the seat. The only time my seat gets moved is if I work under the panel or when it's in the shop.  If one is physically comfortable entering and exiting without moving the pilot seat, I think doing this may lend a measure of safety and minimize wear to the locking mechanism.

-Regardless, I will be more consistent in pushing down on the bar while checking that seat is locked in the before takeoff checklist. 

-Putting a locking mechanism as a backstop in a rail hole behind where my seat normally locks is an idea worth considering.

-Holding the windshield center post after going to full power on the runway and/or during rotation is an interesting idea.  Right now I hold the throttle after engaging the friction lock so that I'm primed to reject the takeoff if needed (for instance if the seat came unlatched). I could consider moving my hand to the center post slightly before rotation. 

As an aside,  the Cessnas may have the same rails but their seats are higher than the Mooney seats.  I wonder if that configuration creates more of an up force vector on the pin during acceleration and pitching up, contributing to a greater tendency to unlatch. Regardless, it would be better to inspect the rails and take care of the issue ourselves proactively than end up with an AD to replace the rails on a time schedule!

[Marauder]

Thus my technique to take hold of the center windshield bar at rotation. I can always come back to the throttle if I need to, and at rotation speed we're going flying anyway. But with a hand on the windshield bar, if the seat broke loose, I will naturally pull on the bar and not the yoke. It also makes it easier to let go of the yoke.
This is a Mooney specific technique...

I would be a little worried about the engine controls would back out. It might not be an issue with the vernier controls but for those of us with quadrants, if the friction knob isn’t snug, they will slide out. I wonder if some kind of safety strap could be used on the center post.

I’m not sure how those seat rail stops work. In order for it to be effective for me, they would need to be immediately behind the stop I am using and then removed when I slide the seat all the way back to get out of the plane. How do you get these installed to accomplish this?


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[wishboneash]

What I do is to hold onto the throttle friction lock assembly (not the throttle black knob itself). I know I can hold my weight with my fingers tightly on the back of the friction lock on a climb out. I can then let go of the yoke with my left hand if the seat slips back and pull myself forward with my right hand (without killing the throttle). Other ideas to restrict the movement of the pilot's seat are definitely worth considering.

[DonMuncy]

Since I fly with my seat in the front holes, there is no way I can (reasonably) contort my way into the seat with it in that position. So I must use Paul's method, or figure out (and use) a method that I can place/attach after I am seated in place, and remove after landing. I suppose that means an object behind the seat, or some "yet to be designed" rail clamp. 

[TTaylor]

I have to move the seat as well to get in and than slide forward.  One additional thing I do once the seat is in the proper position is to grab the seat frame with one hand and under the instrument panel with the other and try to move my body forward and back several times to ensure that the locks are secure. 

[cliffy]

I was taught from my first flight in a C-150 to always test the seat after sitting down or after any adjustment by rocking it fore and aft to see if I could make it move. I have done this religiously for over 55 years.

As an aside- when Continental Airlines got their first 747 they had a Capt seat problem on take off. If  you remember, those seats were electrically run by a motor and moved aft and inboard about 5 feet from front to back. Right at rotation with the Capt flying, his seat actuated (uncommanded) moving aft. As he was moving away from the control wheel he looked at his F/O and said, "you've got it"!  To which the F/o took command of the airplane. As we would say in later years- "perfect transfer of command".

[Mooney in Oz]

4 hours ago, cliffy said:

I was taught from my first flight in a C-150 to always test the seat after sitting down or after any adjustment by rocking it fore and aft to see if I could make it move. I have done this religiously for over 55 years.

Hello Cliff, I hope you are well.

Since my Aerostar experiences that is exactly what I do, no matter the type. Although I also like Paul's suggestion once airborne.

Hope to see you back in Oz again.  Your attendance and contribution to our maintenance program was and still is highly regarded by all attendees.

[cliffy]

Thank you for the very fine comment.  My time down under was at the top of my life experiences. We enjoyed our time with you folks immensely and I hope I was able to transfer some of the knowledge that I've gathered over the years to those of you who so graciously invited me into your world of Mooney flying.  It is I who thank you for the opportunity.

[MB65E]

My grandpa taught me to rock my seat too. I think I do it in any airplane I fly on every flight. 

The hands on the center post isn’t a bad idea. When transitioning to crew environments... V1, And the hands come off the throttle. That’s been hard for me as my as my private check ride examiner, Gean Biggs, yelled at me when my hand came off the throttle during a takeoff on the checkride. Kinda one of those never forget moments. 

As for the thread drift. The ideas are speculation, but still good discussion overall.

All the best to the family of our Mooney brother!

-Matt

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

I have never experienced the seat sliding back in flight uncommanded, but I have had the seat back shift.  The event definitely gets your attention.

[DaV8or]

Sadly, if the seat slipping was the cause of this accident, we may never know because the post crash fire likely consumed, or severely distorted the seat rails and the seat and what's left of the seat is likely all the way forward rather than rearward due to the impact with the ground.

On the topic of seat safety stops- how about taking a piece of PVC pipe, cutting it to to the proper length, then ripping a slot down it  so that it easily slips over the rail but also prevents the seat from sliding back. Maybe easy to install and remove each flight, light weight and best of all, super cheap! I don't know how well it would stay in place in turbulence, but my guess is, just fine.

The official $60 Cessna clamps look pretty good as long as the Mooney rail is in fact identical to the Cessna rail. My only question there is, what damage do they do to the rail itself by repeatedly driving a thumbscrew down into the relatively soft aluminum seat rail? Do they provide a sort of "brake pad" to go between the steel thumb screw and aluminum seat rail?

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

Sadly, if the seat slipping was the cause of this accident, we may never know because the post crash fire likely consumed, or severely distorted the seat rails and the seat and what's left of the seat is likely all the way forward rather than rearward due to the impact with the ground.

On the topic of seat safety stops- how about taking a piece of PVC pipe, cutting it to to the proper length, then ripping a slot down it  so that it easily slips over the rail but also prevents the seat from sliding back. Maybe easy to install and remove each flight, light weight and best of all, super cheap! I don't know how well it would stay in place in turbulence, but my guess is, just fine.

The official $60 Cessna clamps look pretty good as long as the Mooney rail is in fact identical to the Cessna rail. My only question there is, what damage do they do to the rail itself by repeatedly driving a thumbscrew down into the relatively soft aluminum seat rail? Do they provide a sort of "brake pad" to go between the steel thumb screw and aluminum seat rail?

I think the challenge is how to mount anything to the rail that won't result in either a contortion act to install or remove. For it to be effective, it needs to be close to the final seat positioning of the pilot. I know, even at my size, if the seat goes back 2 or 3 inches, I am reaching. Wonder if some sort of safety strap mounted to the seat front that can be fixed location in the panel area could be a solution. Something that can be quickly attached and removed.

[jaylw314]

16 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think the challenge is how to mount anything to the rail that won't result in either a contortion act to install or remove. For it to be effective, it needs to be close to the final seat positioning of the pilot. I know, even at my size, if the seat goes back 2 or 3 inches, I am reaching. Wonder if some sort of safety strap mounted to the seat front that can be fixed location in the panel area could be a solution. Something that can be quickly attached and removed.

How about an adjustable strap that can be attached (temporarily of course) to a structural tube under the panel, and the other end attached to or looped around the lap belt?

[Marauder]

14 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

How about an adjustable strap that can be attached (temporarily of course) to a structural tube under the panel, and the other end attached to or looped around the lap belt?

Now we're talking.

[Jerry 5TJ]

How about replacing the rails and seat rollers if they are worn?

[Marauder]

23 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

How about replacing the rails and seat rollers if they are worn?

Don't you just hate it when an engineer posts and offers a logical solution? 

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

How about replacing the rails and seat rollers if they are worn?

That's just crazy talk... 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

Don't you just hate it when an engineer posts and offers a logical solution? 

Hey I piped up and offer a block of wood to solve the problem - what can be simpler than a block of wood?!

[Piloto]

To reduce the wear on the seat tracks and mechanism had them lubricated. I always spray WD-40 at every annual. Also to insure proper seating of the seat pegs on the tracks keep the track holes clean. When the peg is not fully inserted due to dirt in the hole there is a chance of the seat sliding back.

José

[jetdriven]

yeah, WD40 attracts dirt. Creates a problem where there wasnt one. Latch pins fouling up with greasy dirt.  Also, i dont see how you spray that stuff and keep it out of the carpet.  I could see some triflow on the latch pins themselves where they slide in the seat, but not the rails themselves.

[PTK]

I spray windex on them regularly. In fact it works like a charm on everything inside the plane and out. It’s the miracle stuff in a bottle and not just for skin warts! Does a great job on the plexi too!

 

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

yeah, WD40 attracts dirt. Creates a problem where there wasnt one. Latch pins fouling up with greasy dirt.  Also, i dont see how you spray that stuff and keep it out of the carpet.  I could see some triflow on the latch pins themselves where they slide in the seat, but not the rails themselves.

There are some pretty nice modern chain lubes used on bicycle chains in the dirty environment that they are in - yes wd40 attracts dirt, and relatively so does even try-flow - which was the chain lube of yesteryear.  Now adays these sorts of lubes are used and much superior. https://www.bikenashbar.com/cycling/finish-line-wax-lubricant-4oz-fl-kry-base

I bet this would be great for this purpose.