iPhone and Garmin GTX 345 -AHRS

[Seth]

What iPhone app will display an AHRS readout from a Bluetooth signal from a Garmin GTX-345

 

Thanks!

 

-Seth

[Vance Harral]

My understanding is Foreflight, Garmin Pilot, and now FltPlanGo will all show an EFIS display based on the AHRS output from a GTX-345.  I've only personally used it with Foreflight, in a flying club aircraft I don't own.

Were you asking about a standalone app that's not an EFB?  If so, I agree that would be nice.  My research so far hasn't turned up any such apps, but I haven't looked very hard.

[MIm20c]

ForeFlight app will not allow the AHRS on a phone size display.  Wished they would bring that back. 

[Vance Harral]

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

ForeFlight app will not allow the AHRS on a phone size display.

Boo.

As I contemplate our ADS-B in/out options and the various features and gizmos that come along with them, I increasingly find myself wanting a dedicated display for traffic and/or EFIS data from the magic box(es).  Velcro a phone to the panel with only traffic, for example - instead of overlaying traffic on top of a moving map, weather data, and all kinds of other combined information on a single Foreflight/WingX/whatever app.  But this doesn't seem to be a common model.  I'm a little surprised the various hardware vendors don't have more standalone apps for this sort of thing.

[Vance Harral]

20 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Garmin Pilot allows you to use up to 3 devices from a single subscription.  Plenty to have a dedicated device if that is what you want, isn’t it?  You can also chose between dedicated EFIS and traffic display screens.  Oh, and iPhones are not restricted.

When I say "dedicated display", I don't so much mean a dedicated piece of hardware.  Yes, that's part of it, but it's the easy part.  The hard part seems to be finding a dedicated app - or a simple mode in an integrated EFB app - that shows only traffic, or only attitude or whatever.  This, as opposed to split-screening or overlaying the data on top of maps and other junk.

In other words, I want this on an iPhone or similar small display "temporarily" mounted to the panel:

... rather than this on a tablet that's on the yoke or in my lap:

That seems to make me an outlier, though.  Seems like most people prefer the bottom solution.

I haven't looked at Garmin Pilot in quite a while.  If I understand correctly, you're saying Pilot has exactly what I want - modes that looks like the top picture above for traffic and that would run on a phone, for example; and similar for EFIS display of attitude information.  If so, sounds like Pilot has changed since last time I evaluated it, and maybe it's time to take a second look.  I'm a fan of Foreflight at the moment.  But with a GTN-650 in our panel, contemplating a GTX-345, possibly a Flightstream 510, and the seemingly unending price increases from Foreflight, I could be swayed.

Nonetheless, I'm a little surprised Garmin and other vendors don't advertise their hardware works not only with the various big EFB apps, "but also with our free, dedicated display app available on the Apple Store".  Doesn't seem like a big investment in software development, but maybe it's just not worth the time and energy vs. integrating with Foreflight/Pilot/WingX/etc.

[Seth]

Hmm, I’ve been a foreflight user since 2011, but I’m now thinking I may have to look at Garmin Pilot.  

I did go with a GTX345 and I’ll upgrade my 430 at some point.  

I do still have my stratus 2 and the stratus Horizon app, but the part of the point of the GTX345 was to not rely on the stratus anymore.

-Seth

Edited March 28, 2018 by Seth

[eman1200]

Garmin Pilot:




Sorry, I’m not in the plane connected to the 345 but maybe you can see the traffic rings in this pic of the dedicated traffic page on my iPhone:

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

In other words, I want this on an iPhone or similar small display "temporarily" mounted to the panel:

Have you thought about the Lynx NGT9000 vs the 345? you would get this and wx and metars and winds aloft and terrain on different screens for close to the same $ .

[Rmag]

@eman1200 is correct.  The Garmin Pilot app has the exact screen you are asking for.  Black background with concentric range circles. 

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Have you thought about the Lynx NGT9000 vs the 345? you would get this and wx and metars and winds aloft and terrain on different screens for close to the same $ .

Definitely considering the NGT along with the 345, but there are trade-offs.  No integrated AHRS in the NGT for backup attitude, so would need a separate solution for that.  And audio traffic appears to be a $650 add-on that makes the price delta even larger vs included audio alerts with the 345.  So not sure I agree it's "close to the same $".  The integrated touch screen in the NGT is nice, and Mooneyspacers that have the NGT seem to like it.  But I'm not yet convinced it's a better display option than just having a cellphone on the panel, which you can replace/upgrade/change apps on over time.

The real drag with the 345 IMO is Garmin's use of Bluetooth for connectivity, which limits you to 2 connected devices at any one time.  When I fly instrument practice with a safety pilot, we both like to have "connected" iPads, and that uses up all the connections.  To get a 3rd display, we'd need to use a wired connection to our GTN-650 (already in use for other things of course), or install an Aera in the panel.

Our airplane is in a partnership, so the cost of this upgrade will be nicely split by 3.  But we don't have unlimited funds, and I'm not yet convinced the price delta for the NGT is a good long-term value.  Happy to hear further opinions from others considering the same choice.

[Marauder]

Definitely considering the NGT along with the 345, but there are trade-offs.  No integrated AHRS in the NGT for backup attitude, so would need a separate solution for that.  And audio traffic appears to be a $650 add-on that makes the price delta even larger vs included audio alerts with the 345.  So not sure I agree it's "close to the same $".  The integrated touch screen in the NGT is nice, and Mooneyspacers that have the NGT seem to like it.  But I'm not yet convinced it's a better display option than just having a cellphone on the panel, which you can replace/upgrade/change apps on over time.
The real drag with the 345 IMO is Garmin's use of Bluetooth for connectivity, which limits you to 2 connected devices at any one time.  When I fly instrument practice with a safety pilot, we both like to have "connected" iPads, and that uses up all the connections.  To get a 3rd display, we'd need to use a wired connection to our GTN-650 (already in use for other things of course), or install an Aera in the panel.
Our airplane is in a partnership, so the cost of this upgrade will be nicely split by 3.  But we don't have unlimited funds, and I'm not yet convinced the price delta for the NGT is a good long-term value.  Happy to hear further opinions from others considering the same choice.

I’ve flown a bit in 345 equipped planes as well as having my own experience with the L-3 9000+ in my plane. On the planes I have been in with the 345, the pilot relied pretty extensively on the ADS-B data being presented on an app (either Garmin Pilot or ForeFlight). These planes have 430s in them and although the ADS-B was presented, it wasn’t very usable due to the size. Even the resolution wasn’t that good. The AHRS capability certainly is available, but I think most of us would agree that if you are down to the AHRS presentation from your 345, you are in an emergency mode.

The 345 has limited capabilities as a standalone box. It has a timer but most of the “output” needs some other device to present it.

The big advantage of the 9000 is that it has its own display for the same price as the 345. Even if you port over the ADS-B data to an app or another dedicated display, it is nice knowing that you still have the fallback of being able to use the 9000 itself for the data presentation. The fields on the 9000 are certainly useful and include all of the ADS-B outputs as well as a dedicated screen for my WX-500 StormScope.



As for the ATAS verbal warning. I think L-3 has basically given this away. I picked up mine free for attending the Oshkosh talk on their ADS-B solutions. I also know it was offered free for people who attended any of their online seminars. When I first saw the technology, I thought it was a novelty gadget. Having flown with it for a year, it’s the real deal. I have yet to get a warning that wasn’t a true risk. The risk algorithm was done well.

You can’t go wrong having any of these devices in your plane. It comes down to how you plan on using them and what works best for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[JKeeth]

FYI...as of the start of the year, ATAS traffic alerting is included free of charge from L3.

[Rmag]

I went with the GTX 345R in my Mooney because I have it integrated with my GTN 750.

For my Dad's Cub we put the L-3 unit in because it is stand alone.  Even if you are not using an iPad for the traffic, the little touch screen is definitely usable for traffic.  It has the black background with the concentric range rings that you prefer.  I usually keep it at six miles and if something shows up heading my way I will zoom in and start looking outside.  Its a nice unit.

[Vance Harral]

Thanks for the PIREPs, all.  I'm aware the prices for the units themselves are constantly changing. Of course, it's also hard to get an exact cost because it depends on the dealer you work with.  When I first looked at this last year, the NGT-9000 seemed considerably more expensive, even without the diversity antenna setup and/or active traffic.  Maybe that's less true today.  Looking just now, Avionics Source lists the GTX-345 at $4495 and the base model NGT-9000 at $4995.  I'm assuming installation costs would be similar in our airplane, so call it a $500 delta if I can get ATAS for free and we decide we don't care about the AHRS.  That's not a big difference in the grand scheme of things.

The AHRS is a sticking point, though.  Yes, it's true its value is only as an emergency backup.  But that's a big deal to us - the aircraft only has a single vacuum-powered AI today.  This is actually the bigger reason I'm interested in a "panel-mounted" display, even if it's just a phone velcro'd to the panel.  For both traffic and back-up attitude, I'd prefer the data be on the panel in my immediate scan, rather than on a tablet that's on the yoke or in my lap.  Anyway, if we go with the NGT-9000, we either have to give up on backup attitude, or obtain a standalone solution which increases the total cost significantly.

For FIS-B weather, I don't think any of the panel-mounted options are very good compared to a tablet - I'll almost certainly consume ADS-B weather via remote connectivity to the tablet.  The display dilemma for me is all about traffic and backup attitude.

[Marauder]

Thanks for the PIREPs, all.  I'm aware the prices for the units themselves are constantly changing. Of course, it's also hard to get an exact cost because it depends on the dealer you work with.  When I first looked at this last year, the NGT-9000 seemed considerably more expensive, even without the diversity antenna setup and/or active traffic.  Maybe that's less true today.  Looking just now, Avionics Source lists the GTX-345 at $4495 and the base model NGT-9000 at $4995.  I'm assuming installation costs would be similar in our airplane, so call it a $500 delta if I can get ATAS for free and we decide we don't care about the AHRS.  That's not a big difference in the grand scheme of things.
The AHRS is a sticking point, though.  Yes, it's true its value is only as an emergency backup.  But that's a big deal to us - the aircraft only has a single vacuum-powered AI today.  This is actually the bigger reason I'm interested in a "panel-mounted" display, even if it's just a phone velcro'd to the panel.  For both traffic and back-up attitude, I'd prefer the data be on the panel in my immediate scan, rather than on a tablet that's on the yoke or in my lap.  Anyway, if we go with the NGT-9000, we either have to give up on backup attitude, or obtain a standalone solution which increases the total cost significantly.
For FIS-B weather, I don't think any of the panel-mounted options are very good compared to a tablet - I'll almost certainly consume ADS-B weather via remote connectivity to the tablet.  The display dilemma for me is all about traffic and backup attitude.

I’ve played around with these portable backup AHRS a bit. If you are truly concerned about a single point of failure (and not relying on your superior partial panel skills), I would invest in a real backup AI. I have had my iPad lock up on me a couple of times. Fortunately never at an important time. A G5 may make sense for this.

I’ve got the L-3 ESI-500 in my panel. It may be overkill but I find it a really easy AI to fly.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Vance Harral]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

I’ve played around with these portable backup AHRS a bit.

Well, I'm not sure I'd call the AHRS in the GTX-345 "portable".  It's hard-mounted in a unit that's as firmly fixed to the airframe as any certified attitude sensor.  If you have an Aera in a panel dock, you can hardwire it to the GTX-345 and get an attitude indicator whose connectivity robustness is equal - or at least very close - to what you'd get with an ESI-500 or G5.

The internal sensors and firmware of the AHRS in the GTX-345 may not be as good as an ESI-500 or G5.  I don't know about accuracy, update rate, etc., and not sure how I'd research that other than asking for PIREPs.  It's also true that if you display the attitude information via Bluetooth link on an EFB instead of via hardwire connection to an Aera (and we don't even have an Aera today), that's a more complex system with more failure modes.  But I think the GTX-345 AHRS is an interesting animal in the overall landscape.  As a backup source of attitude information, it's robustness is probably somewhere between a genuinely portable solution (e.g. Stratus 2 or iLevil), and an ESI-500, G5, or even a simple Mid-Continent Lifesaver.  So not a  gold-plated solution, but to me it has nonzero value that makes the NGT-9000 look that much more expensive for its lack of AHRS.

And before the cheapskate debate spools up - this isn't about being a certified CB.  If our partnership had an extra AMU (or ten, or a hundred) to spend on "safety", there are better ways to spend it than on increasingly robust backup attitude indicators.  Primarily training, to be honest.  The odds of pilots doing something stupid in VMC due to lack of proficiency are tremendously greater than augering in because their backup AI let them down in the soup.  We're not arrogant enough to think we're special in that regard.

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts and conversation.  Still trying to understand the pros and cons of the many ADS-B solutions available to us.  Haven't entirely ruled out a (theoretically) less-expense 978 MHz UAT solution, either.  Seems like there's a new solution every few months or so.  But we're creeping up on the 2020 deadline, and we want to be equipped by then, even if there's a long wait at the avionics shops.

 

[PTK]

The aera 660 hard wired to the GTX345 is a great AI backup. And when not used for attitude it can be used for other things like a dedicated traffic display with targettrend.

[Vance Harral]

16 minutes ago, PTK said:

The aera 660 hard wired to the GTX345 is a great AI backup. And when not used for attitude it can be used for other things like a dedicated traffic display with targettrend.

Right.  And at around 1 AMU for the 660 and a panel dock, that's considerably less expensive than a G5 or similar.  Still a lot more expensive than velcro'ing an old cellphone to a blank spot on the panel, though, which is what got this thread started.  Decisions, decisions...

[PTK]

29 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Right.  And at around 1 AMU for the 660 and a panel dock, that's considerably less expensive than a G5 or similar.  Still a lot more expensive than velcro'ing an old cellphone to a blank spot on the panel, though, which is what got this thread started.  Decisions, decisions...

I would not want to depend on a bluetooth iphone connection for my backup attitude though. I would definitely want the 660 hardwired to the GTX345. Still considerably less than the other backups and a lot more functional.

[Marauder]

Well, I'm not sure I'd call the AHRS in the GTX-345 "portable".  It's hard-mounted in a unit that's as firmly fixed to the airframe as any certified attitude sensor.  If you have an Aera in a panel dock, you can hardwire it to the GTX-345 and get an attitude indicator whose connectivity robustness is equal - or at least very close - to what you'd get with an ESI-500 or G5.

The internal sensors and firmware of the AHRS in the GTX-345 may not be as good as an ESI-500 or G5.  I don't know about accuracy, update rate, etc., and not sure how I'd research that other than asking for PIREPs.  It's also true that if you display the attitude information via Bluetooth link on an EFB instead of via hardwire connection to an Aera (and we don't even have an Aera today), that's a more complex system with more failure modes.  But I think the GTX-345 AHRS is an interesting animal in the overall landscape.  As a backup source of attitude information, it's robustness is probably somewhere between a genuinely portable solution (e.g. Stratus 2 or iLevil), and an ESI-500, G5, or even a simple Mid-Continent Lifesaver.  So not a  gold-plated solution, but to me it has nonzero value that makes the NGT-9000 look that much more expensive for its lack of AHRS.

And before the cheapskate debate spools up - this isn't about being a certified CB.  If our partnership had an extra AMU (or ten, or a hundred) to spend on "safety", there are better ways to spend it than on increasingly robust backup attitude indicators.  Primarily training, to be honest.  The odds of pilots doing something stupid in VMC due to lack of proficiency are tremendously greater than augering in because their backup AI let them down in the soup.  We're not arrogant enough to think we're special in that regard.

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts and conversation.  Still trying to understand the pros and cons of the many ADS-B solutions available to us.  Haven't entirely ruled out a (theoretically) less-expense 978 MHz UAT solution, either.  Seems like there's a new solution every few months or so.  But we're creeping up on the 2020 deadline, and we want to be equipped by then, even if there's a long wait at the avionics shops.

 

 

My point is that the AHRS attitude is only available on portable devices (iPads, Aera)and not on certified panel mounted boxes. There isn’t a dedicated backup AHRS AI page on any of the GNS or GTN navigators and the G500 certainly doesn’t use it as a backup source for its AHRS data. The reason for this it is most likely it doesn’t meet the TSO requirements. So it becomes advisory. That’s fine if you have confidence it will work as required.

 

I’m a bit surprised that more aren’t chiming in on the AHRS function. There are a ton of them installed in Mooneys.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Well, I'm not sure I'd call the AHRS in the GTX-345 "portable".  It's hard-mounted in a unit that's as firmly fixed to the airframe as any certified attitude sensor.  If you have an Aera in a panel dock, you can hardwire it to the GTX-345 and get an attitude indicator whose connectivity robustness is equal - or at least very close - to what you'd get with an ESI-500 or G5.

The internal sensors and firmware of the AHRS in the GTX-345 may not be as good as an ESI-500 or G5.  I don't know about accuracy, update rate, etc., and not sure how I'd research that other than asking for PIREPs.  It's also true that if you display the attitude information via Bluetooth link on an EFB instead of via hardwire connection to an Aera (and we don't even have an Aera today), that's a more complex system with more failure modes.  But I think the GTX-345 AHRS is an interesting animal in the overall landscape.  As a backup source of attitude information, it's robustness is probably somewhere between a genuinely portable solution (e.g. Stratus 2 or iLevil), and an ESI-500, G5, or even a simple Mid-Continent Lifesaver.  So not a  gold-plated solution, but to me it has nonzero value that makes the NGT-9000 look that much more expensive for its lack of AHRS.

And before the cheapskate debate spools up - this isn't about being a certified CB.  If our partnership had an extra AMU (or ten, or a hundred) to spend on "safety", there are better ways to spend it than on increasingly robust backup attitude indicators.  Primarily training, to be honest.  The odds of pilots doing something stupid in VMC due to lack of proficiency are tremendously greater than augering in because their backup AI let them down in the soup.  We're not arrogant enough to think we're special in that regard.

Again, I appreciate all the thoughts and conversation.  Still trying to understand the pros and cons of the many ADS-B solutions available to us.  Haven't entirely ruled out a (theoretically) less-expense 978 MHz UAT solution, either.  Seems like there's a new solution every few months or so.  But we're creeping up on the 2020 deadline, and we want to be equipped by then, even if there's a long wait at the avionics shops.

 

The GTX345 seems like a good ADS-B out and in solution, but I definitely wouldn't buy it for the AHRS. It sounds like the GDL39, 59, 51 or 52 portables have just as reliable of an AHRS. Trek Lawler from Garmin says that the AHRS in the GTX345 is " an emulated AHRS system just as used with the FlightStream and GDL 39". If you're going to fly iFR get a certified attitude backup that has been thoroughly tested. You don't want to be the test pilot.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=124489&hilit=GTX345

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=124489&hilit=GTX345

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=149934&hilit=GTX345

[PTK]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting buying the GTX345 solely for its AHRS. Thete’s so much more to the 345. It’s AHRS is intended to be a backup AHRS. And when hardwired to a display such as to the 660 eliminating the bt connection it’s another available backup. The GTX345 is yet another example of the Garmin tradition: building feature rich products. 

The few folks who talk about their Lynx, have you asked L3 why they didn’t give you AHRS? Or targettrend?

[jmoz]

Please pardon the naiveté of this question (just a PP, not yet an owner, and not instrument rating), but why not consider something like the Dynon D2 (http://www.dynonavionics.com/pocket-panel.php) for backup AI? It is, of course, not TSO, but nothing removable will be, and it's built on the same MEMS platform as Dynon's EFIS platforms. It should mount where you'd otherwise mount the phone, and it's got battery backup if your electrical system goes down. I'd personally be more comfortable, I think, with a single box with everything standing alone than with a panel-mounted backup AHRS connected by Bluetooth (not the most reliable protocol) to a phone if things went bad....

Assuming that there's a good reason no one suggested this approach, could someone let me know the error in my thinking? I'm not being facetious; I'm really looking to learn more from people with more experience.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, jmoz said:

...but why not consider something like the Dynon D2...

Very good question and the D2 would certainly serve its purpose if it's still available. I’m not terribly excited by its presentation. It’s so MS DOS looking, imo.

But overlooking that, for the same money the 660 hardwired to the 345 provides so much more functionality.

[Cruiser]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

I don’t think anyone is suggesting buying the GTX345 solely for its AHRS. Thete’s so much more to the 345. It’s AHRS is intended to be a backup AHRS. And when hardwired to a display such as to the 660 eliminating the bt connection it’s another available backup. The GTX345 is yet another example of the Garmin tradition: building feature rich products. 

The few folks who talk about their Lynx, have you asked L3 why they didn’t give you AHRS? Or targettrend?

"Feature rich" ? really? An AHRS that doesn't work and which Garmin even recommends not using...........  RIGHT .