Looking at a 1988 M20J 201

[Travis2015]

I know of a plane coming on the market in the near future that I wanted to get a couple opinions on. It has been with the current owner for around 15 years and been inside a hanger the whole time, but hasn't flown much in the last 5 years. It is out of an annual as of last year and has practically no avionics upgrades. The engine has less than 50 hours on it SMOH, but that was done over 5 years ago. Would the consensus be that this is most likely a sleeping demon and money pit? I know it gets started monthly but am not sure if that means up to operating temps or not? I think it was last flown in 2016.  

I'm a low time pilot in my mid 20's looking at the possibility of buying this to be a long term plane.

Thanks for any advice/ recommendations!

Travis

Edited January 16, 2018 by Travis2015

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Travis.

Planes that have that description are often better for somebody more familiar with that kind of work...

The risk reward relationship has to be priced in to make sense.

What will you do when the worst case occurs in your first year of ownership?

Around here There is one of these worst case scenarios occurring annually.... usually by people that didn't ask enough questions.

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

  On 1/16/2018 at 4:31 AM, Travis2015 said:

I know of a plane coming on the market in the near future that I wanted to get a couple opinions on. It has been with the current owner for around 15 years and been inside a hanger the whole time, but hasn't flown much in the last 5 years. It is out of an annual as of last year and has practically no avionics upgrades. The engine has less than 50 hours on it SMOH, but that was done over 5 years ago. Would the consensus be that this is most likely a sleeping demon and money pit? I know it gets started monthly but am not sure if that means up to operating temps or not? I think it was last flown in 2016.  

I'm a low time pilot in my mid 20's looking at the possibility of buying this to be a long term plane.

Thanks for any advice/ recommendations!

Travis

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I own an M20M that had a similar story - it hadn't been flown much recently but had been hangared and cared for well for years. There have been some things it has needed, but I am very happy with my purchase. If this one can be bought right you might have a good foundation to build on.

Had they upgraded the panel 10 or 15 years ago it would all be old technology now but they would think it was worth a lot of money. Probably good that it's original since you can decide if and what to upgrade. If you aren't interested in LPV approaches you could put it a Garmin GDL82, which gives you ADS-B out for less than $2500 installed and call it a day. Then you can use an  Ipad with a portable device for ADS-B in.

[Bartman]

The fact that it is a newer airframe and has been in a hangar for nearly all of its life is definitely a good thing and should not have issues with corrosion. Paint and windshield should be good too. Have the engine and prop checked out thoroughly and discount the price accordingly. If interested and patient this could be a good airframe to create a custom panel, or if the avionics and autopilot are good then just do an ADSB upgrade and fly like it is.

Lots of Mooney specific things to check like fuel tank leaks, gear and donuts, but also the usual stuff like tires, brakes, hoses, etc.

[Oldguy]

One of the regular contributors here, @gsxrpilot, has a list you do NOT want to be on. It is made up of good deals gone bad. Or worse.

While this plane may have the potential to be a money pit, if you decide to pursue it, a very thorough PPI can make the difference between gold or fool's gold. Many of us do a PPI on the owner as well as the plane when we buy, and it often gives insight into how the plane was maintained and flown.

Best of luck on this. Keep updating us as you go.

[jaylw314]

I purchased a similar plane ('86 M20J) and it worked out okay.  Mine sat for 4 years with only 50 hours after a remanufactured engine was put in.  It only was run for 12 hours in those 4 years.  The difference was that it was kept in annual and it was a remanufactured engine.  Also, having the engine start up and ground run regularly is potentially worse than not running it at all--each run can add some water to the engine, and it's not long enough or hot enough to boil it off.  Still, if it last flew in 2016, that's not terrible.

Regardless, a good pre-purchase is exam is in order, particularly around the engine.  Make sure cylinders are borescoped.  If it's an IO-360A3B6D with the single Bendix dual mag, you can't look at the camshaft, so that's an unknown.  Being hangared means routine risk of corrosion, but don't assume the owner's being truthful.  In any case, I wouldn't say sitting for 5 years with no activity is an automatic no-go, it just means you need to be more cautious.

OTOH, I can tell you with certain it WILL be a money pit--these sort of things always are!

[Tommy]

It's all about how how much he is asking....

 

[rpcc]

Was it stored on jacks with full tanks?  If not, check the landing gear disks for compression and look for leeks in the tanks.

[KLRDMD]

  On 1/17/2018 at 12:12 AM, rpcc said:

Was it stored on jacks with full tanks?  If not, check the landing gear disks for compression and look for leeks in the tanks.

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[Guest]

While the camshaft isn’t visible unless you have a cylinder or two removed, borescope of the cylinders is a very good idea.  Removal of the magneto will allow you to inspect the gear train.

And as everyone else is saying a thorough PPI by some one who is Mooney knowledgeable.

Clarence

Edited January 21, 2018 by M20Doc

[rpcc]

  On 1/17/2018 at 12:17 AM, KLRDMD said:

 

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Yeah that was bad, but hey just trying to help.

[Travis2015]

I little update... The plane had the engine removed and sent to be overhauled in Missouri in Fall '09. Also had the prop switched to the 3 blade prop at the same time. The current owner was redoing it to be his forever plane, but lost his medical shortly after getting it all put back together in 2010. He had someone flying it periodically until '16 and kept it current on the annual until now (and it should just be a few months out of annual). It has been inside the hanger with full fuel, but not on jacks. It has just standard avionics with dual kx 155's and 4000 hours TT. I'm thinking I might be able to get it bought for 85AMU's with a current annual and flying. The guy that has been doing the annual for about 5 years is the one getting ready to do the annual now, and it should fly when the annual is complete.

@carusoam 

If I got hit with a $15AMU bill shortly after purchasing, it might not fly as much as it should...

 

[Danb]

With the good ppi, annual, price it correctly..imo 70-75G then have a great J to upgrade, good luck..

I had a 1988'J, that year the planes offered were all over the place, lean machines square windows nice ones in the middle and beginning of the special line round windows upgrades A/P interior etc. The purchase price should vary based on which one it is. 

[mike_elliott]

  On 1/21/2018 at 5:16 AM, Travis2015 said:

The plane had the engine removed and sent to be overhauled in Missouri in Fall '09. Also had the prop switched to the 3 blade prop at the same time

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Hummm......new prop plus Major means no need to record the prop strike in the logs.... the 3 blade is reason enough to be suspicious;

[StevenL757]

Agree, and I was just going to ask Travis if he has seen the logs for overall completeness, and whether anything in them stands out as noteworthy or cause for concern.  As Mike indicated, if there was a gear-up or other damage history warranting the need for overhaul, you’ll really want to consider if this is the correct “J” for you.  Remember, you and your family will be flying in this thing.  Please keep us posted, and good hunting.

Steve

[bradp]

Most mooneys tolerate gear up landings remarkably well, but look at those logs for hardware replacements at the same time as the prop was redone, query whether the engine mount was IRANed or replaced at that time, whether engine accessories were replaced in 09 as well, look for evidence of sheet metal work on PPI, etc. 

[231LV]

I recall purchasing my first Mooney and "perusing" the logs....honestly, I had no clue what to look for. Pay a good mechanic to thoroughly review them and have him thoroughly look at the plane (not doing a PPI, yet) before even getting into a negotiation on price. His initial overview of logs and plane as it sits may give you a good starting point for a price provided it passes a thorough PPI. The first years of owning your own plane will always cost you more than you figured...at least that was my situation because you need to fix problems not initially found in the PPI and you want to get it to a place you want it to be regarding avionics, etc.......good luck!

[Steve W]

I thought reading logs was pretty easy, 5 pages of replacement parts on the airframe done by someplace called "Mooney Factory" in Kerrville TX, yep, that could mean something. Of course in this case it meant gear-up off-airport landing. But since it was done by the factory, had virtually 0 problems since with several hundred hours and 10 years (some gear door adjustments and similar) I figured it was a safe purchase, and also I couldn't tell where the repairs were, I'm sure a mechanic could.

On the other hand if it had been Joe's Crab Shack and Airplane Repair and it looked like 10lbs of bondo was used, well that would have been a different story.

[Travis2015]

Update for curious ones....no movement yet. Working on risk management and acquisition costs....isn’t that always the story.

Looks like overhaul was done in 2009, prop in 2011 with only 25 hrs on engine, and same tach time today being out of annual since Feb 2017. Had an A&P look over the logs and he thinks they look complete with no short cuts on the overhaul and parts replacement.

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

  On 8/20/2018 at 4:08 AM, Travis2015 said:

 

 

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And the award for the all time ugliest yokes ever on a Mooney goes to . . . 

[jaylw314]

  On 8/23/2018 at 1:57 AM, LANCECASPER said:

And the award for the all time ugliest yokes ever on a Mooney goes to . . . 

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Holy damn! 

[ArtVandelay]

Panel looks original, and what’s up with the glare shield?

[MBDiagMan]

  On 8/23/2018 at 1:57 AM, LANCECASPER said:

And the award for the all time ugliest yokes ever on a Mooney goes to . . . 

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Yes, but they look they are probably comfortable.  Function over form.

[LANCECASPER]

  On 8/23/2018 at 8:13 AM, teejayevans said:

Panel looks original, and what’s up with the glare shield?

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Even the panel is a little off, where the DG is, it looks like there used to be a KCS-55A HSI there. Instead of repairing or replacing it he just stuck a DG in there? How does that work with the KAP150 autopilot?

[Oldguy]

  On 8/23/2018 at 2:18 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Even the panel is a little off, where the DG is, it looks like there used to be a KCS-55A HSI there. Instead of repairing or replacing it he just stuck a DG in there? How does that work with the KAP150 autopilot?

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According to the Pilot guide, the KAP 150 works with the KG 107/KI 204 combination or the KCS-55A. Just a lot of manual resetting, I would imagine.