Mooney for Business Travel

[brian]]

Ok, first post from the new guy. Likely a post that has been here hundreds of times, but it takes a bit to get used to a new forum. (That is, my searching and looking at posts hasn't helped yet. Although that 200KT Mooney thread is interesting.)

 

Here is what I'm trying to wrap my head around (e.g. mission) when trying to figure out if a Mooney might be a fit for business use

• One, maybe 2 people + modest bags (weight won't be an issue)
• Trying to stay under 800NM with no more than one stop - and fall back to the airlines for larger hauls
• Needs to be good a good IFR platform, autopilot, etc.
• Need a "get out of jail free" card if ice is encountered (e.g. FIKI would be nice)
• Fast counts - and the ability to climb over weather.
• (time for laughs): trying to stay under $200K (I already know a turbine is likely the best fit, but my wallet isn't big enough!)

I just fly for fun right now and weighing options for a business traveler. I spend at least one week a month traveling and some months a lot more than that. After doing this for several decades with the airlines, I'm looking for another option. I do own an early Bonanza (2nd one) and it was purchased just to have something to do on the weekends. So I do know a little about aircraft ownership and Beech aircraft. Switching to a Mooney for business use, well, I still have a lot to learn. (Well, that is true regardless of the airframe.)

So - what should I be looking for on the Mooney side?

Also - what are the warts on something like a 305 conversion (whatever that is)? I'm about to get a "book" on the Mooney line to help sort things out. But it looks like I'll need to understand the upgrades and maintenance headaches first.

[smccray]

What do you want to fly?  "Mission" analysis threads are always fun... then I suspect most people buy what they want anyway.  Biggest issue with a turbine is not capital cost it's operating cost.  If $200K is a hard limit on the capital cost I suspect a turbine is going to be out of reach.

Turbine Side- looking at a piper product or a TBM you're in the $800K - $1M range.  Probably $750 per hour to run the plane.  On the piston side @ $200K your best bet for a FIKI plane is a Bravo.  Call Jimmy as he has the only FIKI bravo on the market.  If you have more flexibility on the capital cost I would look at a FIKI SR22 or perhaps a piston piper.  Many would say that any piston product doesn't belong in icing on a regular basis but I don't have the experience to express an opinion.

I will say that the 1995 FIKI bravo at All American looks like a nice plane.

[Bryan]

Where are you based in AR?

We have four Mooneys at our field in Conway, nothing with FIKI but would be happy to show you what we have.  PM me your contact information and we can try to hook-up.

M20C, M20F, M20K 231, M20K 252

I know all the other owners and can show you a wide range.

[mschmuff]

With a $200K budget and the need for FIKI (as opposed to inadvertent TKS) the choices get narrowed down very quickly!!  

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Acclaim, Ovation and Bravo are the only FIKI aircraft in the Mooney fleet.  So Bravo it is!!

Since you're already a Beech guy.....1985 FIKI A36TN in Delaware for $190k asking - controller.com

[Danb]

2 minutes ago, mschmuff said:

With a $200K budget and the need for FIKI (as opposed to inadvertent TKS) the choices get narrowed down very quickly!!  

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Acclaim, Ovation and Bravo are the only FIKI aircraft in the Mooney fleet.  So Bravo it is!!

Since you're already a Beech guy.....1985 FIKI A36TN in Delaware for $190k asking - controller.com

I notice your located in DC, but your plane sits outside my hanger on the ramp at KILG..MS I'm the Bravo guy I rapped with u a few times last year. Stop by

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Your mission describes to a "T" the way I use my Acclaim, and my FIKI Encore before that.

[mschmuff]

I'm 7 on / 7 off in DC flying medevac.....with all of the OT I work I am definitely in DC more than DE.....And I get to keep the Mooney in the hangar with helicopter for FREE!! So I chose DC as location!!

[Danb]

Remember I spoke with you over the summer at my hanger and you told me of your schedule small world

[brian]]

Ah - makes sense on FIKI. I don't have to have FIKI - but I really would like TKS or boots "just in case".

Turbines are out - that's just too much money. As was hinted at - I use the airlines a lot already and I'm just looking to adjust things a bit on my terms. (A TN'd 33/35/36 is an easy choice. The BE55's look interesting - but feeding two engines ... wouldn't mind a SR22 - but that budget.)

 

Say - Conway is close. Anything happening over there where you might already be at the airport? (I tried to go over there when EAA had the bomber a few weeks ago. I heard the "air boss" say the RV guys were taking off - just as I was starting my descent and turned back.) There is a M20C a few hangar doors from me at Country Air. That's about as much as I know about the Mooney line. Anyway, I'll drop you a PM later in the day - work is demanding my attention ...

 

 

[Marauder]

Remember I spoke with you over the summer at my hanger and you told me of your schedule small world

And to make the world even smaller, he’s been up to my airport and we spent an afternoon together. :-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bryan]

3 minutes ago, brian] said:

Say - Conway is close. Anything happening over there where you might already be at the airport? (I tried to go over there when EAA had the bomber a few weeks ago. I heard the "air boss" say the RV guys were taking off - just as I was starting my descent and turned back.) There is a M20C a few hangar doors from me at Country Air. That's about as much as I know about the Mooney line. Anyway, I'll drop you a PM later in the day - work is demanding my attention ...

I was in-town when the B-17 came to town that week but went out of town over the Saturday, Sunday.  I snapped a picture one evening of my bird with the B-17.  A Mooney "selfie" per-say.

 

[brian]]

Question: any pointers on the 305 "conversion"? There is one for sale and looks good (with a few warts - history wise). Even if that isn't the one, that does sound like one impressive bird - speed wise. (Sounds like useful load isn't much - but that isn't an issue in my case.)

 

[Niko182]

4 hours ago, brian] said:

Ok, first post from the new guy. Likely a post that has been here hundreds of times, but it takes a bit to get used to a new forum. (That is, my searching and looking at posts hasn't helped yet. Although that 200KT Mooney thread is interesting.)

 

Here is what I'm trying to wrap my head around (e.g. mission) when trying to figure out if a Mooney might be a fit for business use

• One, maybe 2 people + modest bags (weight won't be an issue)
• Trying to stay under 800NM with no more than one stop - and fall back to the airlines for larger hauls
• Needs to be good a good IFR platform, autopilot, etc.
• Need a "get out of jail free" card if ice is encountered (e.g. FIKI would be nice)
• Fast counts - and the ability to climb over weather.
• (time for laughs): trying to stay under $200K (I already know a turbine is likely the best fit, but my wallet isn't big enough!)

I just fly for fun right now and weighing options for a business traveler. I spend at least one week a month traveling and some months a lot more than that. After doing this for several decades with the airlines, I'm looking for another option. I do own an early Bonanza (2nd one) and it was purchased just to have something to do on the weekends. So I do know a little about aircraft ownership and Beech aircraft. Switching to a Mooney for business use, well, I still have a lot to learn. (Well, that is true regardless of the airframe.)

So - what should I be looking for on the Mooney side?

Also - what are the warts on something like a 305 conversion (whatever that is)? I'm about to get a "book" on the Mooney line to help sort things out. But it looks like I'll need to understand the upgrades and maintenance headaches first.

Maybe a 252, 262, or encore is what you are looking. Has the tirbo to get over the weather. The 252/262 can be aquired with tks and i believe the encore can have fiki. Encores are hard finds though. Only 19 of them available. IFR for these aircrafts is no issues. Mooneys have always been great IFR aircrafts.and they can be found within the budget you're looking for.

[Bob_Belville]

Brian,

I flew a lowly M20E for the kind of mission you outline for many years. Based in NC I traveled to Chicago, Philly, Cleveland, Boston, etc. in the wintertime w/o any deicing equipment or any onboard weather info except for a Stormscope. Very seldom did I have to scrub and go airline. I averaged 250 hours a year for 11 years. That was 30+ years ago and there is a great deal more capabilities available now than then.

Since useful load and interior space are not an issue for you I would think that a short body or mid-body would get you the most bang for the buck in terms of acquisition and operating costs. That's M20E through M20K. The Ks are turbo if you decide you want to suck O2 and fly the flight levels. If most of your business trip are east of the Rockies that is not necessary. 

This might help you get acquainted with the maze of models Mooney has built on the M20 type certificate! http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

  Es and Fs are "vintage" but Mooney airframes are very strong and unless beset by corrosion have no practical service limitation. Many have been well maintained and updated with features that were introduced in the J (201) that was the flagship of the fleet for 10 years beginning in 1977. In your budget range, no plane came out of the factory with a panel that you would find acceptable today so you'll be looking for a plane that has been updated since 2010 or priced so that you can equip it with the latest and greatest. For example, you should be able to buy a nice M20J with many hours left on an engine overhaul and good paint and interior for under $100,000 and spend another $50,000 for a very nice glass panel, ADS-B I/O etc.

All of these models are honest round numbers 150 ktas on 10 gph cruisers except that the turbo K can do a little better if you're willing to go above about 15,000'. Range with IFR reserves should be 600 nm or more. 

Welcome to MooneySpace, happy hunting.

 

[jaylw314]

How is your Bonanza equipped?  Realistically, it's hard to imagine changing to a Mooney just for better gas mileage, although I don't know how different their operating costs might be.

My experience is with the M20J, and it would meet most of your criteria except for having deicing equipment.

• useful load is tight but not an issue for you
• I've flown 700 nm nonstop, and my range (with reserve) is a bit over 800 nm
• With that range, speed is between 135-150 KIAS.  Not super fast, so this might be your deciding factor
• IFR is good, and many were fitted with King autopilot, which should be familiar to a Bonanza owner
• Well outfitted and maintained 201's seem to go for $90-150k, which should be well within your budget
• No 201's had deicing equipment as options, though

If deicing equipment is a requirement, then you'll need to move up and spend more.  I live in the Pacific Northwest, so it'd be nice to have, but I don't have the budget.

If you want more speed, I think the best cost/speed ratio seems to be at or near the M20J (or older ones with M20J mods), so you will spend much more for every additional knot.

[brian]]

Thanks for that link! That will help. (I'm still trying to map what a 201 is from the identifier - is it a M20J?)

 

 

(The A35 Bonanza I have is my toy. First flight was in 1949 and is highly polished. Ok, I'm a little behind the curve at the moment. Ideal short range VFR with very light IMC. I won't be selling it anytime soon. I am flying it a little for business already. Just afraid of having a maintenance issue somewhere remote and having to explain what an electric prop is to the local A&P. If it was just costs, I would fly the A35 though: ~140KTS on a little under 10GPH MOGAS. Not bad for a <$40K airplane. Mostly trying to add access to a modern aircraft that is a lot closer to 200KTS.)

 

[Hank]

Quick reference chart:

• 201 = J
• 231, 252, 261 = K variants
• 305 = Rocket (Modified K)
• Missile = J with IO-550
• When Harley says "Super," he means an E (Super 21).
• "The best bang for your buck" = C

Happy Mooney shopping! 

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, brian] said:

Thanks for that link! That will help. (I'm still trying to map what a 201 is from the identifier - is it a M20J?)

 

 

(The A35 Bonanza I have is my toy. First flight was in 1949 and is highly polished. Ok, I'm a little behind the curve at the moment. Ideal short range VFR with very light IMC. I won't be selling it anytime soon. I am flying it a little for business already. Just afraid of having a maintenance issue somewhere remote and having to explain what an electric prop is to the local A&P. If it was just costs, I would fly the A35 though: ~140KTS on a little under 10GPH MOGAS. Not bad for a <$40K airplane. Mostly trying to add access to a modern aircraft that is a lot closer to 200KTS.)

 

Yes, the 201 is the M20J

Your Bonanza isn't too far performance-wise from the M20J, so it's hard to imagine spending the time and money to buy anything up to an M20K would be a useful endeavor. 

[Mcstealth]

Here you go.  No need to shop further..  First page had two birds that fit your mission.

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

 

 

[smccray]

Mooney is a good option for you. I use my J much the same way as you’re looking for a new plane. I fly day trips out of The Dallas area to rural Texas.  I’ve been looking for an upgrade to my J with similar mission requirements and constraints as you.  The Mooney is a fantastic instrument platform and would work well for you.

If you only need inadvertent ice you have more options.  Jimmy has an early bravo with TKS that may be an option, but price a new engine and engine monitor before you buy it. 

With 1-2 plus bags almost any GA piston will work- you’re in a great spot.

There are a few Beech aircraft out there that will work, but pricing seems to be above the 200k price point by the time you add TKS and a decent panel.

The best alternative to a Mooney, in my opinion, would be a Columbia 400 with ice protection. The Columbia has an electric system as an option for inadvertent ice protection. Price point for a decent plane would be $250ish for a pre g1000 plane with ice protection. Add the G1000 and you’re probably looking at $325k with WAAS.

[Browncbr1]

17 hours ago, brian] said:

Thanks for that link! That will help. (I'm still trying to map what a 201 is from the identifier - is it a M20J?)

 

 

(The A35 Bonanza I have is my toy. First flight was in 1949 and is highly polished. Ok, I'm a little behind the curve at the moment. Ideal short range VFR with very light IMC. I won't be selling it anytime soon. I am flying it a little for business already. Just afraid of having a maintenance issue somewhere remote and having to explain what an electric prop is to the local A&P. If it was just costs, I would fly the A35 though: ~140KTS on a little under 10GPH MOGAS. Not bad for a <$40K airplane. Mostly trying to add access to a modern aircraft that is a lot closer to 200KTS.)

 

You love your A35, so why don't you put your money into it instead?  Are there any air frame mods or props you could buy that could give you a few more knots?   based on your budget, it doesn't seem like FIKI is feasible unless you were able to find a partner or two.   Also, I tend to think that should you inadvertently encounter ice, your bo would carry it much better than any mooney would.  Aside from speed mods, think about glass panel, digital AP, interior, etc... that's a big piggy bank to play with and you would be left with just one plane to maintain... just my thoughts.. 

[brian]]

On upgrading the A35 - this one is a "classic" and I might get shot by other "vintage" owners if I try to make it look or behave like a V35B - and I'll never get V35B performance. It's an old airplane.

My interest in learning more about Mooneis kinda goes like this: I travel coast to coast US and Canada with a trip one or more times a month (one location - not the entire continent). Airline travel will always be part of the picture - realistically, it is the cost effective and safer option (flame suit on!). BUT - after a few decades I'm starting to want to change my lifestyle a bit. After talking this over with a local, we concluded that this really warrants a jet and I'm not likely to get there (hopeful). So the thought is to get maybe a single that I can afford to keep WELL MAINTAINED and with a good potential for resell if I decide to move up. While talking about 4 seat Bonanzas, SR22s, and Moonies I realize I know very little about Moonies.

As for the A35 - well, every aircraft will need an annual and having the A35 as a backup is a bonus! (If I can pull off having two aircraft.)

Anyway, nothing will happen quickly. Below is my idea of flying right now. A great way to unwind and enjoy the weekend. Business flying I hear from the local is a entirely different kind of flying.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by brian]

[MIm20c]

Sell the 35 and buy a nice FIKI ovation or bravo.  Start saving for a TBM and fly as much as possible. 

[smccray]

That looks like Wayne B’s 180 in the background. I haven’t talked to him in a few years despite being at the same airport. I used to spend more time at the DFW Pilots board before by daughter was born a couple years ago. 

[brian]]

TBM (or the Piper equivalent) is likely where I'll land - if the wallet can ever handle it. FIKI is possible on the Ovation and Bravo? That give me something to focus on when learning.

 

ixnay on the selling the 35 ... aye....

That's a polished C170 in the background owned by one of the locals at the strip I hangar the 35 at.