AlexLev Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 So, I recently had to make a precautionary landing due to a magneto failure in the air and the FSDO has their local office where I landed, so naturally they decided to investigate the aircraft. I got a call today that they are unhappy with where the data plate is on my 68 M20G. It's located just in front of the door where the intake vent is. I assume this is how it came out of the factory. Seems silly for them to want me to either move this one or put another one and potentially drill holes to affix a new one when this is how it was originally certified, but they cited https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/45.11 section e2. Gave me a few months to comply and no big deal I guess, but I'm wondering if anyone has had this happen to them. If so, where did you get a data plate? Can I buy one on aircraftspruce somewhere? Any ideas on how to affix it without drilling the airframe? Quote
Hank Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Never heard of moving the data plate. Mine, and every Mooney I've ever seen has it under the tail on the pilot's side. Wonder how yours got so far forward? Quote
RLCarter Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 All the data plates I've ever seen are on the tail, never seen on up by the cabin Quote
glenn reynolds Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 my previous airplane was missing it's data plate! assumably from when the plane was painted some years prior. I carefully admired the data plate on like model and make, then made my own. I purchased a stamp set and laid out the format with pencil on the "data plate" (rectangle of aluminum) and stamped away. It was so easy I made a second and better looking one. I riveted it to the plane (left hand or pilot side under the horizontal stabilizer) and cheerfully flew the plane for another 12 years. I would leave your factory plate, and install a FAA advised duplicate where they have suggested and send them a photo. Quote
AlexLev Posted October 6, 2017 Author Report Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Hank said: Never heard of moving the data plate. Mine, and every Mooney I've ever seen has it under the tail on the pilot's side. Wonder how yours got so far forward? I've seen some in the same exact place. I think all M20Gs out of the factory came that way in 68 forward by the intake vent. Edited October 6, 2017 by AlexLev Quote
Hank Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, AlexLev said: I've seen some in the same exact place. I think all M20Gs out of the factory came that way in 68 forward by the intake vent. If you have documentation of that, leave the plate alone and send a copy to the FAA. Keep a copy in your logs for future reference, too, cause others may also think it's wrong . . . 1 Quote
RLCarter Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 @glenn reynolds not sure anyone is allowed to make a DATA Plate except the manufacturer 2 Quote
AlexLev Posted October 6, 2017 Author Report Posted October 6, 2017 12 minutes ago, Hank said: If you have documentation of that, leave the plate alone and send a copy to the FAA. Keep a copy in your logs for future reference, too, cause others may also think it's wrong . . . I mentioned that to him, but he said the laws were different in 1968 and this is a new reg so even if it came out of the factory that way at the very least a new plate needs to be installed in the correct location. Apparently, aircraftspruce sells one for $3.35 : https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acid.php Quote
BDPetersen Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Some time ago, probably in the ‘70’s, we were required to add an I.d. plate back at the tail. Not to be confused with the factory data plate. Quote
MB65E Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 The data plate is supposed to be right where it is on your airplane. I have seen several in that same spot. Tell them the tail is on backwards and it needed to be "behind" the aft most exit. For 4 bucks and two rivets it's probably not worth arguing but, man are they silly!! "what type of rivets would you like me to use" lol. geez, -Matt Quote
DXB Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 What profound idiocy. That is where it was from the factory on some planes. I'm sure someone in Kerrville could back you up. Somehow my plate got moved to just above the door, probably when it got repainted by the last owner. I'm sure if that got discovered by a FSDO, I would have to testify before a Congressional subcommittee. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Sounds like a speeding ticket that got lessened to something easier for the driver to remedy... getting a new serial number plate from Lasar might be technically easy. This alternative is probably Much easier to follow up on than having the FAA review your log book entry for the magneto work. That could lead to other pages being reviewed randomly. The 60s was an interesting time for GA... Somebody had to decide on the location that the nameplate would be most findable in the wreckage field... Best regards, -a- Quote
tony Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Did you get this in writing or just a phone call? Quote
Candy man Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 If it was me, I would call AOPA and ask their legal department for advice and direction. I would asif your allowed to make a duplicate data plate. Could you imagine being checked somewhere else and have problems because the data plate wasn't created by the manufacturer? All that being said I would do whatever you need to comply and make the fsdo happy and make them go away. 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 I'm sure that the data plate in the wrong place is what caused your magneto failure . . lol. 2 Quote
tigers2007 Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Keep in mind that bureaucrats justify their existence through stats. Akin to a highway patrol trooper writing you a speeding ticket when you think you were not speeding, it is no longer and issue between you and the trooper, it is between you and the entire government. I would do what the others have recommended and acquire a cheap data plate, stamp it accordingly, and affix it to where they want it to be. I am a bureaucrat yet this appears to be a horrible application of discretion. Unfortunately, I see similar issues like this on a daily basis. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Part 45.11: “[T]he aircraft identification plate must be secured to the aircraft fuselage exterior so that it is legible to a person on the ground, and must be either adjacent to and aft of the rearmost entrance door or on the fuselage surface near the tail surfaces.” Sounds like someone else has been down this path before . . . https://www.mpofcinci.com/blog/aircraft-data-plates/ Quote
1964-M20E Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 My 67F has 2 data plates one over the door and one under the tail. Obviously someone before me added the second data plate under the tail. It is a simple piece of aluminum that was engraved with hand engraving tool nothing fancy but it has the required data. Quote
tigers2007 Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 Does it have to be riveted or could double-sided foam tape be used?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
AlexLev Posted October 6, 2017 Author Report Posted October 6, 2017 8 minutes ago, tigers2007 said: Does it have to be riveted or could double-sided foam tape be used? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk He told me it doesn't really matter how it's affixed, so technically foam tape could probably be used. And yes, he is sending a letter so it is in writing. Quote
ArtVandelay Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 I was told you can't paint the data plate either...my MSC insisted on removing the paint before it would pass annual. Quote
Aviationinfo Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 I've never seen a data plate where yours is, but to me, even though it's silly to have to go through the exercise, it's a matter of choosing your battles. No need to die on this hill. It's so easy to just do it, cheap too. Easy peasy. 1 Quote
Hector Posted October 6, 2017 Report Posted October 6, 2017 What profound idiocy. That is where it was from the factory on some planes. I'm sure someone in Kerrville could back you up. Somehow my plate got moved to just above the door, probably when it got repainted by the last owner. I'm sure if that got discovered by a FSDO, I would have to testify before a Congressional subcommittee. The data plate on my 67C is over the door too. I thought that was where the factory put it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Quote
DXB Posted October 7, 2017 Report Posted October 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Hector said: The data plate on my 67C is over the door too. I thought that was where the factory put it. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk That's so interesting! Joey Cole who did my prebuy and knows the old birds well said he'd never seen one at that location- only the tail, or the vent inlet like Alex's. There's a trace of corrosion under the paint near my plate - I figured the painter used it to cover a dent in the skin or a painting goof up. But now I'm questioning if that's true. Quote
cliffy Posted October 7, 2017 Report Posted October 7, 2017 For those who forget history they will repeat it or so it says- On a Cessna 140 the data plate was fastened on top or the glare shield inside the cockpit. Some old airplanes its on the left door post. No one but the manufacture can make a data plate. BIG No No. That's why data plates are so valuable to re-builders. Without the plate the airplane never existed. Historical note- what you are reading in the FARs is a modern rewrite and not historically correct going back 50+ years. The FAA guy is a newby and probably doesn't go back 20 years and is only reading AND was only taught the "new" regulations. There was a time 30 or 40 or more years ago when ALL airplanes were required to put the make, model and S/N on a small metal tag riveted to the underside of the fuselage under the stabilizer. This was for identification on the ramp by the FAA or LEOS because the data plates couldn't be seen from outside in the place the manufacturer put them (you're thinking sometimes bogus N numbers maybe :-). All airplanes should have complied but obviously many did not and IAs didn't catch it at annual time. Get a letter from Mooney that yours is in the spot that the factory put it legally back when and ask the Feds to look up the old regulation about a metal tag being placed on the aft fuselage where they say the data tag should be. Get a small tag made (your A&P can do it) and rivet it on the back (2 rivets). All perfectly legal IF the Feds only knew what they were talking about. 3 Quote
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