Major airlines taking control of ATC

[cnoe]

I'm surprised by the lack of discussion on this matter and am curious if this issue is of concern to you.

[201er]

Should control of interstate highways be turned over to trucking companies? 

[gsengle]

It's because 90% of us seem to be in violent agreement that it's a bad idea. I've already contacted all my reps so not sure what more I can do at this point.


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[cnoe]

Just now, gsengle said:

It's because 90% of us seem to be in violent agreement that it's a bad idea. I've already contacted all my reps so not sure what more I can do at this point.


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I hope that 90% of us have also contacted all their legislative representatives as you've done. That may be the follow-up poll.

[PTK]

Some are never happy it seems. They complain about the FAA and government bureaucracy and they complain about privatization doing away with the FAA in ATC.

I have no problem with privatization of ATC as long as GA is fairly represented on the board of the proposed non-profit corporation.

[steingar]

I cannot imagine a more inherently governmental function than air safety.

[201er]

Just now, PTK said:

I have no problem with privatization of ATC as long as GA is fairly represented on the board of the proposed non-profit corporation.

GA inevitably can't be fairly represented due to its smaller size, influence, budget, and profitability.

[PTK]

7 minutes ago, 201er said:

GA inevitably can't be fairly represented due to its smaller size, influence, budget, and profitability.

Sure it can! You have to distinguish between commercial and non-commercial GA. 

[gsengle]

The point is it's a fallacy to think there is gain in privatizing a natural monopoly. Someone will have their pocked lined. Everyone love Lockheed Martin AFSS?


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[co2bruce]

Why do you say the corporation will be run by the airlines? (Just asking)

[pinerunner]

I have no problem with the current agency. Of course up in Maine they don't bother us much. It seems to me that aviation rules, etc. are an inherently government function. I think the whole push to privatize everything is a scam. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have no problem with them privatizing ATC. I have a big problem if the change the funding stream and the access rules.

Being a government agency they are inherently inefficient and privatization should make it cheaper. That is the only reason anybody would pursue it. 

The real problem is user fees. Weather they privatize it or not, user fees are the big problem. 

[cnoe]

3 hours ago, co2bruce said:

Why do you say the corporation will be run by the airlines? (Just asking)

As spelled out in HR2997 the corporation directors will be selected from Passenger Air Carriers (~6), Cargo Air Carriers (???), Regional Air Carriers (~4), Business Aviation (2), FBOs and other aviation-related businesses (2), GA manufacturers (2), ATC’s largest union (6), Commercial Airports (3), Airport Executives (3), Commercial Pilot’s union (1), and General Aviation reps (6). The numbers for Air Carriers is dependent on passengers or tons of cargo carried so I cannot say exactly how many reps they'll have but the Passenger and Regional Carrier numbers are very close based on 2015 stats. It's the cargo numbers I'm unsure of.

So, there would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 representatives in the non-profit "American Air Navigation Services Corporation", and of these representatives GA Pilots would only account for 6 positions (12%-15%) on the board. The 3 Air Carrier categories would account for 16 positions alone, and if you added in Commercial Airports and Executives you're already up to 22 or approximately 50% of the voting power.

This doesn't even take into account ATC Controllers' interest in wage/benefit improvements (which they deserve IMO) which would be a strong impetus for increasing fees.

Neither I, nor the AOPA, nor the EAA, nor the NBAA see this as turning out fairly for General Aviation interests.

[gsengle]

I have no problem with them privatizing ATC. I have a big problem if the change the funding stream and the access rules.
Being a government agency they are inherently inefficient and privatization should make it cheaper. That is the only reason anybody would pursue it. 
The real problem is user fees. Weather they privatize it or not, user fees are the big problem. 

Is government more efficient than the best companies? Usually not. Are most companies the best companies? No. How do you get the best companies? Competition. Is there going to be competing ATC systems set up? No.

Let's face it much of the private sector is pretty miserable too. If you've got a monopoly you're seeking to run, and ATC is a natural one, I'd prefer oversight and a public system. There is just no gain and lots of risk in privatizing a natural monopoly.


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[carusoam]

Example of how well a similar system doesn't work...

The toll roads around NYC use RFID transponders (EZ Pass) to pay the toll when we use the bridges and tunnels and highways...

As easy as the system is..  there was news the other day that the tolls were not being discounted properly.  The RFIDs issued to NY residents were paying a different price than the RFID user issued to NJ residents... 

drivers using the EZ Pass system were supposed to pay less because there were no toll takers to pay...  toll collection, what a terribly unsafe, deadly job...

This error went on for years.  People forgot they were supposed to get a discount...

Go figure...

Best regards,

-a-

[Garryowen]

17 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The real problem is user fees. Weather they privatize it or not, user fees are the big problem.

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Example of how well a similar system doesn't work...

The toll roads around NYC use RFID transponders (EZ Pass) to pay the toll when we use the bridges and tunnels and highways...

 

RFID for the sky is where it starts.  Mandatory ADSB-out is the beginning of user fees. 

If they can track you, they can tax you. 

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, daver328 said:

I tried to discuss this like a rational adult, shared the information I had, but then I received a several personal attacks of a political nature and was called a "troll" and various other names -so to hell with MooneySpace.

Well, most of us liked having you around.

I've disagreed with you at times over the years but I still enjoyed the discussion.

[peevee]

5 hours ago, daver328 said:

so to hell with MooneySpace.

Kbye!

[gsengle]

Well, most of us liked having you around.
I've disagreed with you at times over the years but I still enjoyed the discussion.

Well I have him blocked for some reason already, can't remember why, and I almost never block anyone. And then I peek at one of the blocked messages and see the word "dickweed" in a very short post from him, so I think there is a little bit of pot calling the kettle black. Not gonna unblock.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

5 hours ago, daver328 said:

Take this Dickweed For example 

Dave, there is no winning this.  I called someone less than what you just did and was banned.  The guy that I did that to made it super personal.  I dislike him at a level that is not currently able to be measured...but I digress.  Just let it go man.  I feel where you are coming from here, but no happiness emerges. Most important they are acting out because they are losing in every election and their power has been neutered.  I know what that feels like.  Take pity, I mean the high road.

As stated here, we in GA ALL agree that the monopoly that is Aviation is best controlled by Big G.  Every American, not just GA loses if Airlines assume control of the skies.

Talk to your elected representatives and let them know how you feel and that you vote.

[MyNameIsNobody]

6 hours ago, daver328 said:

I tried to discuss this like a rational adult, shared the information I had, but then I received a several personal attacks of a political nature and was called a "troll" and various other names -so to hell with MooneySpace.

Didn't have you pegged as a "Quitter"...

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

Well I have him blocked for some reason already, can't remember why, and I almost never block anyone. And then I peek at one of the blocked messages and see the word "dickweed" in a very short post from him, so I think there is a little bit of pot calling the kettle black. Not gonna unblock.


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Peeker!  Make up your mind dude...

 

[gsengle]

Peeker!  Make up your mind dude...

 

I forgot!


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[Andy95W]

8 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Well I have him blocked for some reason already, can't remember why, and I almost never block anyone. And then I peek at one of the blocked messages and see the word "dickweed" in a very short post from him, so I think there is a little bit of pot calling the kettle black. Not gonna unblock.

 

I agree, calling someone names is never justified, and detracts from the point.

Going back to Dave's initial post, he expressed an opinion that 90% of us agree with but was skewered for simply expressing it- and that, too, is pretty low.

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, Garryowen said:

 

RFID for the sky is where it starts.  Mandatory ADSB-out is the beginning of user fees. 

If they can track you, they can tax you. 

FYI you are already "taxed" my man.  Every time you click the fuel pump.  About as fair a way to dispense a tax for service and infrastructure as I can imagine.  You use it you pay.  Toll roads are just inefficient.  This debate is about control...