Ultras Certified!

[gsxrpilot]

Nothing about this hobby makes any financial sense. But it is fun. Of course flying an airplane in excess of my financial ability, wouldn't be nearly as much fun. If an Ultra fit as easily into my financial situation as my 252 does, I'd have ordered one by now.

[Alain B]

1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

-Useful load. 200lb goes a long way. Cirrus is a proper 3 seater with full fuel, Mooney Acclaim is a single seater (equipped with TKS and A/C, SR22T gives you 1100b vs 900b in an Acclaim).

I dont see the usefullness of A/C when you are at FL 180 and it's 20 below zero. 

Quote

-Cabin comfort, wider, taller, bigger windows, A/C and heat that just work. It feels just like your luxury car.

I am not in a car . If i would want a car , it will be a sport car , so give me a sport airplane . 

-Well, there is that parachute, which turns it into a useful business tool as opposed a fun daytime VFR machine. In my "old" age, I refuse to fly singles at night or over low IFR. This severely limits usefulness of a single other than SR22 to me for business travel during winter months. If I'm spending $700K, I am not driving to Fargo ever again.

Until one of those falling of a chute un-controllable object fall in the middle of a schoolyard full of playing kids . 

-Properly designed 26G seats and 4 point restrain system. What good is the steel cage if your head ends up in the panel. Cirrus cabin is just as good/solid in a crash as the steel cage. Watch the KAPA rotor wash crash video. I would not want to be a M20 or for that matter any other GA aircraft, other than maybe Diamond, if that was to happen to me.

I saw this video , i am pretty sure a steel cage would have been as good if not better then a plastic one . 

-Considerably better avionics, Perspective is so much better than the stock G1000.

Cirrus G6 are deliver with a G1000NxI , renamed Perspective Plus . Mooney Ultra will be deliver with a G1000NxI , no rename . 

-ESP to keep me from killing myself on base to final turn.

Get a AOA indicator . 

-Automatic descent mode to keep me from killing myself when the kid folds the oxygen tube in half just to see what happens.

Kids have no business to play with oxygen tube , if they do , just trow them out 

Granted, Cirrus is 15knots slower at same fuel flow (it's 20 knots slower, but only against a naked Acclaim without TKS). TKS does not slow Cirrus down as it does not change the profile of wing being the wing is fabricated to directly accept the panel as a leading edge. TKSed Acclaim will hit 215knots at FL180 on 16gph, TKSed SR22T will do 200knots on same fuel flow.

As per the Cirrus SR22T poh : 

18000 85% 18.3 191 10.4 198 10.8 205 11.0
           75% 16.4 181 11.0 188 11.4 194 11.8
           65% 14.6 171 11.7 176 12.1 182 12.5
           55% 12.7 158 12.4 162 12.8 167 13.1

I dont see where you get 200 knots at FL 180 ISA  on 16 gph . The fastest it will go is 205 knots on 18.3 gph .At 16 GPH , FL 180 it can reach 188 knots . 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Yeah all that @Alain B said AND the Cirrus STILL looks like a trainer with its fixed gear.

[Alain B]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah all that @Alain B said AND the Cirrus STILL looks like a trainer with its fixed gear.

I have flown both , Cirrus and Mooney M20TN . Go fly a Cirrus , then  a Mooney  , you will know right away why Mooney is better > if you dont know right away , go fly a few more thousands hours and make the test again . 

[peevee]

2 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

Watch the KAPA rotor wash crash video.

That wasn't KAPA, that was KFNL. And it was an sr20, N407ND IIRC but I'd have to check my logbook.

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, Alain B said:

I have flown both , Cirrus and Mooney M20TN . Go fly a Cirrus , then  a Mooney  , you will know right away why Mooney is better > if you dont know right away , go fly a few more thousands hours and make the test again . 

Not really. The cirrus is much easier to live with. Even with a second door the mooney is more of a hassle to load.

I'd take a TTx too.

[gsxrpilot]

My wife's Hyundai is easier to load then the Porsche, but I'd still rather drive the Porsche.  

I'm reminded of a comparison that someone made between my M20C and a 182. The conclusion was that the 182 was better than the Mooney in every way, except when flying. It's better for loading, better for unloading, easier to get in and out of, easier for passengers to get in or out of, easier for the A&P to work on, easier for sitting under the wing in the shade at fly-in's, better for camping under the wing, and better in many other ways. But all that goes away once in the air. And at least for me, I own an airplane because of the flying part.

[peevee]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

My wife's Hyundai is easier to load then the Porsche, but I'd still rather drive the Porsche.  

I'm reminded of a comparison that someone made between my M20C and a 182. The conclusion was that the 182 was better than the Mooney in every way, except when flying. It's better for loading, better for unloading, easier to get in and out of, easier for passengers to get in or out of, easier for the A&P to work on, easier for sitting under the wing in the shade at fly-in's, better for camping under the wing, and better in many other ways. But all that goes away once in the air. And at least for me, I own an airplane because of the flying part.

22 handles just as nice as the mooney. you guys seem to think it's more than what it is. An airplane.

[Alain B]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

My wife's Hyundai is easier to load then the Porsche, but I'd still rather drive the Porsche.  

I'm reminded of a comparison that someone made between my M20C and a 182. The conclusion was that the 182 was better than the Mooney in every way, except when flying. It's better for loading, better for unloading, easier to get in and out of, easier for passengers to get in or out of, easier for the A&P to work on, easier for sitting under the wing in the shade at fly-in's, better for camping under the wing, and better in many other ways. But all that goes away once in the air. And at least for me, I own an airplane because of the flying part.

Agreed 100% , the purpose of an airplane is to fly , all the rest is accessories . 

[gsengle]

22 handles just as nice as the mooney. you guys seem to think it's more than what it is. An airplane.

Nah I don't like how it handles. Particularly don't like the bungee trim system.


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[Andy95W]

31 minutes ago, gsengle said:

and the Cirruses are kinda ugly...


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And you have to deal with other Cirrus owners. Seriously.  Cirrus owners.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Considering price point, one could say the same about a new Cirrus.  So, the real question is...

What makes anyone want to spend ~$700k on their airplane instead of our amazing aircraft?  A d--- parachute?

I just read the aviation consumer add - the all in Cirrus G6 is coming at at just NORTH of $900k.

So yeah same ball park.  But the Mooney is faster, cooler (my eye - and I bet a few others), and some people just don't always want the same thing as everyone else.  No I can't buy a new airplane, but yeah I could buy a used Cirrus SR22 just as well as I can buy a used Mooney - and I bought the later.

[carusoam]

Congratulations Mooney Team!

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

52 minutes ago, Alain B said:

I dont see the usefullness of A/C when you are at FL 180 and it's 20 below zero. 

As opposed to a M20M landing in a school yard full of kids at 70knots vs 19knots under the parachute?

The usefulness of the A/C is not at FL180. It's when the tarmac is 180F and you're waiting for your release.

And I assure you, a SR22T will hit 200knots with no issues. Let me find you a nice photo. I'll be back.

And if you're saying Perspective is a renamed G1000 then you truly have no idea what you are talking about. Cirrus spent about $3 million on software development on top the G1000. The presentation is vastly improved over standard G1000NXI in pretty much every area. Unlike Mooney/Cessna/Beech, they actually stay on top of G1000 software updates as opposed to being 8 years behind. That is the biggest reason not to buy a Mooney. At any moment, it can become a very expensive paper weight without software updates. Not a worry with Cirrus.

As to AOA indicator, I'm not going to get started on that one. I don't need one, but if my head was so far up my behind that I needed one, it would not help. ESP however would. Well, even the best pilots have days when they are not on top of their A game.

And last, a long body Mooney is not a sport plane. It has far heavier ailerons than any Cirrus. Just a lighter elevator, so the control harmony is actually worst than a Cirrus. Want a sports plane, buy an Extra.

The steel cage won't do you any good if you're cartwheeling at 80knots without a proper harness. 3 point harness is fairly useless in that situation.

Edited March 28, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[exM20K]

I have lots of Mooney time, lots of Diamond single and twin time, and a little SR22 time. When it came time for me to purchase a biz use aircraft last year, the cirrus wasn't even a contender. Perhaps because I've lived with a mooney for 12 years and know what it does well/poorly, and I'm comfortable with the compromises, the Acclaim S was a no-brained for a single.

 

The diamond singles hand-fly about as nicely as any plane I've flown, and the moneys are pretty good here as well. The sr22 is an autopilot plane that one cannot trim to hold an airspeed. The side yoke sucks and is spring-loaded, not aerodynamically loaded to return to center. This destroys the fun of slowflight and is IMHO. an important contributor to the stall/spin crash in the pattern pattern sen with Cirrus aircraft.

 

The Cirrus plane is masterfully marketed to pilots disengaged from flying, it seems to me, and I'm not.

 

Oh, and $750,000 will buy you just more than half an equipped DA62. There's value in the new Mooney.

[Alain B]

2 minutes ago, exM20K said:

I have lots of Mooney time, lots of Diamond single and twin time, and a little SR22 time. When it came time for me to purchase a biz use aircraft last year, the cirrus wasn't even a contender. Perhaps because I've lived with a mooney for 12 years and know what it does well/poorly, and I'm comfortable with the compromises, the Acclaim S was a no-brained for a single.

The diamond singles hand-fly about as nicely as any plane I've flown, and the moneys are pretty good here as well. The sr22 is an autopilot plane that one cannot trim to hold an airspeed. The side yoke sucks and is spring-loaded, not aerodynamically loaded to return to center. This destroys the fun of slowflight and is IMHO. an important contributor to the stall/spin crash in the pattern pattern sen with Cirrus aircraft.

The Cirrus plane is masterfully marketed to pilots disengaged from flying, it seems to me, and I'm not.

I have flown all kind of bush plane , from Cub on floats to Twin Otter on floats , with skis in between , Beaver , Otter , Norsemen , 185 and all the rest . Including a few hundreds hours In Cirrus , not that much in Mooney M20 TN but enough to find out that Cirrus are the worst airplane as far as flying in heavy turbulence , high wind , snow storms and in convective weather . Cirrus are sold to new or little experiences pilots most of the time , or those who believe it is the IN things to possess . I want an airplane that can make things for real , not just brag about ! 

[Alain B]

18 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

As opposed to a M20M landing in a school yard full of kids at 70knots vs 19knots under the parachute?

The usefulness of the A/C is not at FL180. It's when the tarmac is 180F and you're waiting for your release.

And I assure you, a SR22T will hit 200knots with no issues. Let me find you a nice photo. I'll be back.

And if you're saying Perspective is a renamed G1000 then you truly have no idea what you are talking about. Cirrus spent about $3 million on software development on top the G1000. The presentation is vastly improved over standard G1000NXI in pretty much every area. Unlike Mooney/Cessna/Beech, they actually stay on top of G1000 software updates as opposed to being 8 years behind. That is the biggest reason not to buy a Mooney. At any moment, it can become a very expensive paper weight without software updates. Not a worry with Cirrus.

At least if i crash a Mooney , i will try not to fall in the school yard because i have control , under the chute there is ZERO control , you fall where the wind push you . 

IN Quebec we dont see tarmac at 180 very often , more likely it is minus 40 .

Maybe , but not on 16 GPH .

I have seen both and have flow both , Except the fact that Cirrus have a little bigger screen , and Cirrus has TKS level and oxygen in the display , for the rest it is pretty much the same . If they spend 3 millions on software development , i wonder where , maybe it's another marketing scam . 

[flyntgr1]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

If I was being purely practical, I'd agree with you... except that if I really was practical, I wouldn't fly at all.  I fly because it's fun, it's cool, it makes me happy and I can afford it. Therefore I'd never own a Cirrus unless they start coming with retractable gear. There is a cool factor that comes with retracts and tailwheels, that just can't be matched by a fixed gear tricycle.

Based on this logic the Globe Swift is the ultimate airplane.

[mooneygirl]

1 hour ago, Alain B said:

I have flown both , Cirrus and Mooney M20TN . Go fly a Cirrus , then  a Mooney  , you will know right away why Mooney is better > if you dont know right away , go fly a few more thousands hours and make the test again . 

Plus the Mooney is handmade in Kerville, TX, USA~!

[ziggysanchez]

57 minutes ago, peevee said:

22 handles just as nice as the mooney. you guys seem to think it's more than what it is. An airplane.

Ummmm.......no. I didn't realize how poorly the Cirrus handled until after owning and flying an SR22 for 2000 hours and then flying the M20K I purchased after selling the Cirrus. The Mooney handles, flies and lands better than the Cirrus. The only thing I think the Cirrus does better than the Mooney is takeoffs.

[peevee]

17 minutes ago, mooneygirl said:

Plus the Mooney is handmade in Kerville, TX, USA~!

And the Cirrus is or was handmade in Grand forks ND and Duluth MN. Who cares?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, mooneygirl said:

Plus the Mooney is handmade in Kerville, TX, USA~!

Isn't Duluth still in the USA?

Clarence

[xcrmckenna]

People look at my "OLD" Mooney for so much money - and anything over 100k sounds like a lotta money to people around here - and i know they are saying, "for that kinda money I could buy 15 Datsun B210's, and old ford F10 pickup, and several snow mobiles, a jet ski, and a bunch of fishing rods..and money left over for 8 pizzas at pizza hut".

A Datsun B210 was my first car.....


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[Yetti]

It's kind of in the crappy PIilatus with at least a bathroom teritority

Edited March 29, 2017 by Yetti

[aviatoreb]

45 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

A Datsun B210 was my first car.....


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:-)  Me too!  I bought it for $500 when I was in high school.  And .... it even worked!  It was one darned ugly ugly car, but darned it worked!