rethinking an E instead of a J

[SharkBait]

I can't be the only one in the mooney market to have had such a hard decision to make.  I have been looking at 3 J models in the past 12 months (which is what i really want)... but they all need something that is going to cost me a pretty penny... paint job, interior, ADSB-in/out...autopilot.. ect..  I went out last week with my buddy in new orleans in his E and I was very impressed with it.  He keeps in super clean and loves it as you can tell by the pics but here is my question folks---

     Do I spend 40K on a moderately used E and put 30k in it and just accept that the leg room is less and im a little slower? or do i wait my my unicorn(J model) that costs about double with what i want in her? it would take more time financially to get the J up to my liking, but i think i would be happier in the long run

my mission is mostly me alone- sometimes 2 and rarely 3 or 4 people- maybe 2 times a year with 4.   I will be flying a 400 mile leg 2 times a month.

my budget is $90k max.  no more than that.

 

is a J worth that extra money to that extreme? will i regret buying an E or F in 5 years? I want this one to be my baby and keep her for a long time...

before i saw this E and flew her I never even considered one... i wanted the leg room in the back and the obvious other advantages of a J.

 

suggestions?

 

Jay

[DonMuncy]

I think the cost to change planes is just too high, when you factor in all the changes you make to your original purchase, the cost to sell it and the cost to buy the next one. I think the most advantageous way is to bit you lip and hold off, while saving you money, to get the "right one" to start with. Probably not the right advice for everyone, but the most likely answer.

I really like my 231, but would prefer to move up a notch. But I can't justify it financially. (As if we could ever justify anything in aviation financially.)

[SharkBait]

That is good advice for sure from both of you.  The sad truth is that I know that I should hold off.... BUT IT'S NOT EASY! haha I hate flying commercial more now than ever before and have finally been able to justify (hehe in my mind) the purchase of a mooney.  I will keep my eyes out for a good J model and most likely take that advice.  I just found out I will finally have a T-hanger by Jan-Feb awaiting her arrival.  I figure I will simply set asside "upgrade" money and take my time making her pretty.  Thanks again guys

[Hank]

There's nothing wrong with a short body. I've not regretted buying my C, and take 3-4 people several times a year. Gotta watch weight and fuel doing that, though.

An E with a cowl closure and 201 windshield is likely as fast as a J; add PowerFlo exhaust and it's probably faster. Check out what Bob Belville has done to his E . . .

So really, the choice is up to you. How badly do you want those 5" of backseat legroom, and the 5" of extra baggage space?

[SharkBait]

hmmm... see Hank this is where I should say NO! NO!  but I like where you're going with this.  whats a ballpark cost for the powerflo exhaust? pretty pricey?

also-  Do you ever wish you had more than a C model? 

 

Jay

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, SharkBait said:

hmmm... see Hank this is where I should say NO! NO!  but I like where you're going with this.  whats a ballpark cost for the powerflo exhaust? pretty pricey?

also-  Do you ever wish you had more than a C model? 

 

Jay

Yeah, I'd love a Missile, but not at 2½ times the purchase price . . . There's also a premium on every flight for higher fuel flow, but the speed would be nice [I just don't need it!]. But I am so, so, so happy that I don't have less than my C model! There have been several times [like fighting the winds over terrain near Knoxville at 10,000 msl; 135 mph indicated, 68 knot groundspeed] that my wife has looked at me and said, "Sure glad we're not in a Cessna." Things like that just make my day!

Last weekend at my fuel stop, the jump plane was climbing out as I approached. While I was waiting to pay the fuel bill [full service only], they landed and blew a main tire. To open the runway, they pushed it into the grass right at midfield [5000' long]. Another plane landed and two took off, so I left too. Before me was a Cherokee 140, he was rudder high passing the disabled 182; when I went by, I was ~150' agl, gear long stowed and climbing at 100 mph.

Life is good. Mooney life is great!

Edited December 16, 2016 by Hank

[Yetti]

Which is why Al created the F model.... if you can find 74-76 model they are pretty much the same as J

You don't have to spend that much to redo the interior if you have a small amount of handyness

[201er]

E, F, J are all valid answers. Ultimately comes down to preference. I think many people think they are going to use all the seats but never do. It is definitely a hefty premium for the extra seats. There are other benefits to a J but hardly justified for just one person (as long as you are comparing to a pimped out e with j panel, windshield, and mods). As far as I know, the pilot leg room is the same between E and J. The only difference is whether or not the backseat folks receive an amputation. 

[TWinter]

I feel your pain. When I bought my E I really liked it, but had concern over the first couple of years whether the short body was going to work  for me and what I had hoped would also be used with family of four adults. Well, I'm now into year 6 with the E and I think I can count on one hand how many times I have had four adults in for any measurable distance. I guess what I'm getting to is all the opportunities that I thought we would fly as a family of four adults ended up not being near the amount  I originally thought. In the first few years I was really worried, would the E end up being too small for all of us to enjoy?, I even posted it for sale on MS at year two or three of ownership thinking a J would allow for more opportunity of family flying..I ended up rethinking and not selling. So here I am and after nearly six years of ownership in my E I'm still counting on one hand roughly how many times we flew as four adults onboard.

A few of us short body guys have gone over the top, but for $90K you would have a very well equiped E. Put another $40K+ in and you will never look back if your only hesitation is the leg room, you will probably find it unnecessary.  My only addiction is performance..I would step up to a Missile or Rocket just because I'm a performance junky and like the idea of speed, but to trade up just for more room, well I'll keep showing love for my E and consider any missed extra leg room for four adults has having been a non-issue and probably won't be in the future.

The last picture is what it looked like when I first got her.. Pea Green, right out of the 70s.

Good luck..Any Mooney is a great decision

 

-Tom

[NotarPilot]

23 minutes ago, SharkBait said:

hmmm... see Hank this is where I should say NO! NO!  but I like where you're going with this.  whats a ballpark cost for the powerflo exhaust? pretty pricey?

also-  Do you ever wish you had more than a C model? 

 

Jay

The PFS is $4190 but looks like you can get a discount if you're not in a hurry. I'm thinking about getting one for my J.

Power Flow Systems price

[NotarPilot]

Damn Tom! Not only is that E the nicest one I've seen it's probably one of the nicest GA aircraft I've ever seen.

[TWinter]

2 minutes ago, NotarPilot said:

Damn Tom! Not only is that E the nicest one I've seen it's probably one of the nicest GA aircraft I've ever seen.

Thanks..My banker thanks you as well...lol

[bonal]

One factor is how tall are front seat occupants. If under 6 feet you will be moving the front seats way up and will have plenty of room for the occasional passengers. Until you get to the pre buy inspection it doesn't cost anything to look and you may pass up a real sweet E or F while wearing J blinders. A real nice equipped E is around 50k a real nice J is starting at 90. Is 5 to 10 knots worth 40 grand. Another thing to consider is insurance premiums for 50 vs 90 thousand hull value. I'm sure less than a thousand a year but it all adds up. My little old D (converted) is good for an honest 145 knots and has a useful load of 1035lbs. I can cruise at under 10gph an E will smoke me but there have been very few times when I have been in such a hurry to end my flight, once in the air who wants to be back on the ground thinking gee I wonder when I can get out and fly again. For really long flights sure it would be great to see 200 plus speeds but your not going to get that until your in a K. A 400 mile trip is an easy non stop in any short E or midsize F. Any how just the humble opinion of a very satisfied D pilot.

[SharkBait]

WOW Tom that E is unbelievable.  More glass than a meth lab.. but she is awesome...  I may be including some E's to look at on my next scouting mission. 

[Ron McBride]

I have a very nice F.  It is not for sale.  The only real advantage to me of and F or a J over an E, is the fuel tanks (64 Gallons) and the higher Gross weight.   My useful load is about 1025#'s.    Normally there is only 1  or 2 persons in the plane for long cross country's.   Sometimes the Grand kids were in it, but usually they were small then.    When I have had 4 people in it, usually 2 adults, and 2 kids and 1/2 tanks.  Easy.

Ron

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

[I just don't need it!]. 

99% of us don't need an airplane. It boils down to how much you can talk yourself (and/or your better half) into spending for what you want.  

[SharkBait]

8 minutes ago, N803RM said:

I have a very nice F.  It is not for sale.  The only real advantage to me of and F or a J over an E, is the fuel tanks (64 Gallons) and the higher Gross weight.   My useful load is about 1025#'s.    Normally there is only 1  or 2 persons in the plane for long cross country's.   Sometimes the Grand kids were in it, but usually they were small then.    When I have had 4 people in it, usually 2 adults, and 2 kids and 1/2 tanks.  Easy.

Ron

the E i have just located in TX has the long range tanks.  84 GAL... i just called this guy... I happen to be in TX right now I may run up and look at her..  just checked.. it flies alot which i like.  It has all the essentials and a great starting point.. any negatives on this one?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2243731&s-type=aircraft

 

[Bob_Belville]

Nice Es seem to be getting a little scarce. There are far more Cs and Js on Controller.

I've owned the airframe for 5 years and the panel for 4.

155+160 kts @ 10.5 GPH or 140-145 kts @ 8.2 GPH LOP 900# useful.

[mooniac15u]

31 minutes ago, SharkBait said:

the E i have just located in TX has the long range tanks.  84 GAL... i just called this guy... I happen to be in TX right now I may run up and look at her..  just checked.. it flies alot which i like.  It has all the essentials and a great starting point.. any negatives on this one?

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2243731&s-type=aircraft

 

This ad was on Barnstormers recently.  Based on the owner's name it looks like it's the same plane.  You might want to ask if they did some upgrades to justify the price increase.

MOONEY M20E SUPER 201 • $44,000 • FOR SALE • 1965 Mooney M20E super 201. Less than 450 hours SMOH. Just over 3000 TAF. Annual May 2016. 201 speed mods. Garmin 430 WAAS. JPI engine monitor. Garmin GDL39A. Maintenance in last 12 months includes: new starter, new battery, new alternator, new voltage regulator, new vacuum pump, new Garmin 327 transponder (not ADS-B), new altimeter. Excellent flying plane. Cruise at 145 knots at 10 gph. Extended range tanks hold 84 gallons. Plane has always hangared. Hangared at KMFE. Log books are complete. Price reduced $5,000 for tanks to be resealed within the next 2-3 years. • Contact Jason Cammack, Owner - located Mission, TX USA • Telephone: 210-334-9606 • Posted September 16, 2016

[flight2000]

When I sold my 67E it stayed on the market for exactly 2 weeks before selling and it was only advertised on controller.com (free ad) and here.  The good ones sell really quickly so you have to be ready to pull the trigger on them.  That really goes for any aircraft you are looking at though.  There are days that I miss it... 

I would routinely get 155 KTAS at 10,500 feet while burning 8.7 gallons.  It was a hard decision to sell.

More photos of my previous love at: http://www.67m20e.com/n597nd.html

Cheers,

Brian

Edited December 16, 2016 by flight2000

[eman1200]

@flight2000, remind me what you were asking for that awesome E of yours?  or if you're willing to share what it sold for, even better but didn't want to get too personal. 

 

I still haven't gotten over @22 others selling his C to someone else (who already had a plane!). 

[flight2000]

I listed it at $69K and it sold for that...

Brian

[Ftlausa]

I would echo the comment about the cost of switching planes later if you are not sure what you will ultimately want.  I am going through the process of selling up now, and the extra expense hurts.  These are "wants" however, and you have to stay within your budget.  No matter what you buy, there is always going to be a bigger and faster plane you could have bought.  You have to accept that and enjoy the privilege of flying what you have.   

[SharkBait]

2 minutes ago, Ftlausa said:

I would echo the comment about the cost of switching planes later if you are not sure what you will ultimately want.  I am going through the process of selling up now, and the extra expense hurts.  These are "wants" however, and you have to stay within your budget.  No matter what you buy, there is always going to be a bigger and faster plane you could have bought.  You have to accept that and enjoy the privilege of flying what you have.   

your'e selling your J?  maybe it should be on my list on possible candidates to check out...    ;-)  your'e down in south florida thats worth a trip for me

[ArtVandelay]

In the end, after 10 years of ownership, the price of the plane minus what you sell it for will be dwarfed by other expenses such as: upgrades, hangar, avgas, insurance and maintenance. If you are wincing about an extra $40K for a J, you might want to  rethink ownership, do not, I repeat do NOT buy a plane without substantial cash reserves for unexpected maintenance.