I need advice. Mooney, 182, or nothing.

[EtradeBaby]

Well there are no plans for a second child, but the first one wasn't exactly planned either some guess you never really know. 

This may sound strange but sitting down low with a "strapped in" feeling I think would make me feel more at ease. Ive done quite a bit of racing and just get very relaxed strapping down into something rather than sitting upright. 

As for the mission really just take my wife places. I love to fly. She loves to be anywhere other than north Louisiana. We pack very light. We each own a business that could benefit in part from an airplane. We are starting to pick up some work in the Baton Rouge area and making that round trip in a vehicle in one day really sucks. 

I will give Falcon a call tomorrow and get another quote. AOPA said even getting my IR would only drop it by about 5%. So I definitly feel I need to shop around. 

[gsengle]

Besides with a real traveling machine like a Mooney, you may find yourself traveling a bit further than 250nm...


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[Pritch]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Travis,

Don't discount the Piper Comanche lineup.  I've owned 2 Mooney E models and currently a 400 HP Comanche.  I won't be switching back anytime soon.

Clarence

 

I rode in a early 60's Comanche 260 the other day and have to say that I was IMPRESSED!

[Sean S]

I bought my Mooney before I earned my PPL. That was September 19th of this year. I earned my PPL mid October and my complex endorsement November 1st. Insurance from AOPA is $1923. Falcon quoted me almost $3k! I have a nice M20F that performs better than expected (to me anyway). It has mostly original avionics and a really cool Loran C. For me, the first thing I did was pick a budget then a mission. Then I went in search of aircraft that met my budget and mission. My mission is Memphis to Atlanta, Central and South Florida, and central Ohio. This aircraft is capable and fun to fly! I expect that come next September when I have 100 hours in my plane the insurance will come down. Instrument rating planned in the Spring of 2017. Good luck on the purchase, and definitely spring for a pre-purchase inspection. 

[Bravoman]

And don't forget the early Saratoga, Cherokee six 300 and Dakota lines. All wonderful aircraft for your mission. I have a Bravo and an 82 fixed gear toga. Love em both but wouldn't trade the toga for anything. For 250 nm trips not an incredible time differential. Cheap to own and burns about 16gph in cruise and I flight plan for 145 kn.  We usually have the middle seats out and it is amazing what we haul around in that thing. The mooney is way more fun to fly but any time it is more than me and the wife we take the Saratoga. I know it is a minority opinion around here but I think even a long body is tight for more than two people, particularly if you need to haul stuff.

best of luck with your decision making and plane search! Regards, Frank

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, EtradeBaby said:

Most of my trips will be between Dallas, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and Birmingham. Even then those trips will likely only be on a monthly basis. 

We live in Austin with family and friends in Dallas. The Mooney allows us to go to Dallas just for lunch and easily get back.  With your own Mooney, you might find yourself making the trips a lot more often.

[TTaylor]

Travis, welcome to MS.

I think a J or F would work well for your primary mission, time difference would be only a few minutes at 250 nm.    I agrees that your 182 numbers are optimistic, 135 knots at 12.5 gph are more realistic.   Real world numbers for Mooney's is 150 knots (140 for an F) at 9 gph.    

Most Mooney pilots are driven by speed and efficiency.  If your personality falls in this type then you are at the right place. 

I fly an F, very similar to a J in all aspects, and can easily fly four average sized  adults  over 400 nm miles with reserves.  With three on board we often fly nearly 600 nm with the 54 gallons the F has with bladders.   For your price range I would stick with either the J or F.  The mid sized planes offer a comfortable ride for all passengers at the price point. The 10 extra inches makes the rear seats much nicer and more room for baggage.  For $80K you are looking at a minimally equipped older J or a well equipped F.  An upgraded F with 201 windshield and other mods can nearly run with the J's.  As others have said, it is cheaper to get the instruments in the plane than to upgrade later.   

From your mission I would also suggest partnership in the long run.   Unless you are flying often on business it usually makes sense both financially and it is good for the plane to be used more often to have a few partners.

Go fly a Mooney and you will never want to go back to anything else.

 

[glafaille]

Etrade-

Good advice here!  I agree that you need to sit in a Mooney, it's an unusual aircraft in many ways and seating is one of them.  I found the Mooney sort of like sitting IN a Porsche.  The 182 is more like sitting on a dining room chair.  If you have short legs like me, you will be sitting very close to the instrument panel and yoke in the Mooney.  The Mooney is not uncomfortable but it is different and seems better suited to some body types.

To be fair, a C182 is not an "apples to apples" comparison with a Mooney in my opinion, except if comparing acquisition cost only.  A C182 is more of an SUV.  Easy in, easy out, tons of space to haul just about anything like car seats, bicycles, strollers, and coolers etc.  Furthermore the C182 is fixed gear, however there are C182s with retractable gear that will fly faster.  

Be sure to research annual costs for any aircraft you are considering.  For planning purposes, I estimate parts and squawks expense at annual to be equal to the labor expense.  Therefore, I plan for an annual to cost 2x the estimated labor for the inspection alone.

A patnership is like a marriage, it works only if you can find the right partner.  In aviation you must also agree on the aircraft and all the associated expenses.  Worth searching out but very difficult to find.

[Marcopolo]

Travis,

 

  Like Bayern, I am insured through AOPA with Starr Aviation.  Less than $2,000/yr with very low hours (48) initialy, zero complex and zero High Performance (which I needed for the K model).  They required 5 hours of Dual instruction and 5 hours of solo before allowed to carry passengers.  

$1m liability and $75k hull.

 

Ron

 

 

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Keep in mind that the planes you're looking at are 30 or more years old.  

At this point they're all unique--each has been maintained well or badly (often both), flown (and abused) differently and modified such that every one you evaluate will present a different picture.

By now most will have had 8, 10 or more owners who become in effect your invisible partners--you'll understand that after your first careful annual inspection reveals something that makes you wonder "who the $@&$ did THAT?!?!"

If your budget is $80K I suggest you look for the best $60K plane you can find because you'll spend the other $20K on the plane in the first year.  I can (almost) guarantee it  

 

 

[Bob - S50]

I'll add to the fray.

We have a '78 J.  I've been flying and planning on 150 KTAS at 9 GPH but up around 10,000' that's it's more like 8.7 GPH.  At 6500' or 7500', I get cruise at 157 KTAS on 9.2 GPH.  I'm thinking I could squeeze about 163 KTAS out of it at around 10 GPH if I ran at 2700 RPM.  If you are only going to fly 250 NM, I wouldn't bother going much higher than 7500'.  You'll waste more gas climbing than you save by increasing your TAS.

When shopping, always ask about useful load.  For the J, be suspicious about a stated useful load much over 1000#.  I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'd want to verify it rather than take the owner's word for it.  Ours has a UL of 970#.  I've seen some for sale that were well under 900#.

So what can you do with 950#UL in a J?  Fill the tanks (64 gallons), load up 580# of people and bags, and fly until your bladder bursts.  That would be 5 - 6 hours and almost 900NM with an hour of reserves.  Or fill it to the 50 gallon tabs, load up 660# of payload, and fly about 600 NM in 4 hours.  Or if payload is your primary concern, you can do what the 4 of us do, park the plane with 30 - 35 gallons on board.  That would let you load up 750 - 775# of payload and fly 280 - 360 NM respectively.

I'll second the suggestion made earlier, if you can find a partner, it will give you more money to buy a nicer plane to begin with and will cut your fixed costs.  That will leave you more money to buy gas.  Just be sure they are like minded when it comes to upgrades.

Best of luck.

[gsengle]

Also if you have a young child, many here would caution about flying too high, especially in the oxygen levels anyway. Do you really think in the flat part of the country you'd spend a lot of time at 10k feet plus? Sure if you have to travel reliably over longer distances in weather it is nice to have a shot at getting on top. But otherwise...


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[FlyWalt]

12 hours ago, kevinw said:

A 182 owner once told me his airplane was like driving a pickup truck. I couldn't agree more. A Mooney, on the other hand, is like driving a sports car. 

Driving a Mooney is like driving a Porsche 911 :-)

[Marauder]

As a long time F owner (25 years), I would look at what your budget can afford for the foreseeable future. As Jerry points out, you will buy a plane and see things you want done or need to be done. Beyond that is the operational costs of owning the plane. It adds up in a hurry. And I think this is where a lot of owners get into trouble and where hangar queens are made.

If you think an F or J will serve your purpose, buy the best you can but make sure you have a solid PPI done to avoid buying a problem plane. If you buy and intend on keeping a while, you can start adding features and functions that fit your budget. During my plane ownership, I raised two kids with the occasional need of renting/borrowing a 182 or a Sara for vacations. With both kids grown up, the F has become the perfect plane for my wife and I. You will see a number of owners like me who have invested in an older plane because the plane just fits our mission. Search around, these planes do come up for sale periodically. Just don't impulse buy if you see a pretty paint job or new interior. Look at the whole plane and do an assessment to make sure you are buying a decent plane equipped the way you want/need it. Adding avionics is expensive. So is fixing busted older avionics! This is what can be done to a 41 year old plane.




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[Marauder]

Here is another way at looking at your 250 nm mission. This is a flight I make several times a year. If the weather is good, I'll go VFR and save 10 to 15 minutes because of IFR routing I usually get.

My plane (note the 40 knot headwind):


What I would expect an Ovation to do it in:



And a Bravo (although I gave it a time and fuel break keeping it 8000'). A Bravo owner can tell you what you will really can expect if they climb to the flight levels.


And what the 182 should do:



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[Oldguy]

I was looking at the same choices as you in 2013 when I ended up buying my '84 J. While exit and entry to the 182 was easier for me (6'5") it just didn't "feel" right. With the J, my wife and I go from just east of Birmingham to the south side of Houston to see my family, to the beach for breakfast or lunch and this Thanksgiving we are making the trip to and from her family's house in Greenville, SC on Thursday as we did last year.

As many have said, buy the most plane you can afford with as much of the avionics you want in it as you can. You can always add more later, but whoever adds avionics to a plane sells the same avionics at a discount when they sell the plane.

Count on whatever you pay for insurance dropping dramatically as you get more time and additional ratings in your Mooney. It will also help to attend one of the MAPA Safety Foundation's training courses known as a Pilot Proficiency Program (PPP). There you will learn how to handle your Mooney safely and confidently. They have them several times a year in various locations. Highly recommended.

Enjoy your plane, whichever model you choose.

[Browncbr1]

My family had a 182 years ago and I have a 67F  now.  I picked the F because of the additional useful load, stability, fuel injection, and a larger back seat to accommodate my family of 4.  My kids are 3 and 6 now, but I bought the plane keeping in mind 10-15 years down the road.  I have said before, if my mission were only 1 or two pax, then I probably would have gotten an E model for the additional speed and climb performance.  For me, I sought out manual gear only.  Most F models have more useful load than most J models.  That was another factor for my decision.  I looked at J models hard, but finally could not allow myself to spend twice the amount of money for a J with 1000 hours additional engine time and ~100lbs less useful load in exchange for saving 9-10 minutes a couple times per month on my 320nm mission.   Not to mention the extra pocket money for cool gadget fuel, and not letting costs get in the way of maintenance/safety decisions. 

Compared to the 182, there is really no contest.  Mooney wins big time, and I'm only speaking with respect to economics.  There are two fewer cylinders to maintain and important ancillary things like a JPI are cheaper for 4cyl...  Perhaps if you weigh 300lbs with broad shoulders, a Cessna or Bo would be a little more comfortable, but I'm fine at 6' 170lbs..     I also would argue that mooneys have safety built into the design where others don't.. The steel cage, the burly spar and tail, the direct control linkages, and significantly better glide ratio...  

[peevee]

You're on a Mooney forum, so you know what answer you're going to get. 

I had a 182. It was reliable, cheap to maintain, and gave me no headaches. 

It's a jack of all trades, master of none. It's OK for cross countries, it's OK for hauling weight and people, it's great for local flying. I hated it. 

[TheTurtle]

250nm is nothing in a mooney. I did 222nm just shooting approaches around socal yesterday.  around 3.5 hours and that included a piss break in CMA and a fosters burger in santa paula.

0 complex time with about 100 total time and insurance on my F is 1400/year.  40k hull, 1 million coverage.

Flew in a 206 a couple days ago.  Man that thing is a truck.  Nice having all that weight in the bumps but us cheap bastard mooney pilots cant even fathom 15gph.

Mooneys are great for tall skinny people like me.  Seats have more leg room than you could ever use as pilot and the way you sit doesnt make my bad knees ache like the upright cessna position.

I thought the attached pic was pretty cool as far as speed goes.  Not ever sure how that happened.  Probably bad math in foreflight but sure looks like a respectable speed   i generally average 125kt on my practice approach days according to FF.  this was an outlier.

Edited November 22, 2016 by TheTurtle

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, DaV8or said:

I have never seen a Mooney owner switch to a 182.

In time oriented order, I owned a "C" model Mooney, "M", then "F", then "A" model 182 then "P" model 182 then "K" model Mooney (plus another 8 assorted airplanes thrown in at various time points) so I have gone from a Mooney to a 182.

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, EtradeBaby said:

That was an AOPA quote. Who is your insurance provider I need to check them out. 

I cannot possibly say enough good things about Wendy Wenk at Wenk Aviation. She is most highly recommended and everyone I have sent to her has switched brokers and now use her. She's phenomenal.

wendy@wenkaviation.com

847.235.2491

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, KLRDMD said:

In time oriented order, I owned a "C" model Mooney, "M", then "F", then "A" model 182 then "P" model 182 then "K" model Mooney (plus another 8 assorted airplanes thrown in at various time points) so I have gone from a Mooney to a 182.

Everyone's allowed to make a mistake... just as long as you can correct it.  Which you did ;-)

[EtradeBaby]

38 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I cannot possibly say enough good things about Wendy Wenk at Wenk Aviation. She is most highly recommended and everyone I have sent to her has switched brokers and now use her. She's phenomenal.

wendy@wenkaviation.com

847.235.2491

I'll give her a call this afternoon. 

I can't thank everyone enough for all the wonderful advice so far. I have been looking at F's all day and TTaylor had a great point and is absolutely correct about finding a nicely equipped F on my budget. That's definitly looking like the plane for me. Now I just need to sit in one. 

[gsxrpilot]

57 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

I'll give her a call this afternoon. 

I can't thank everyone enough for all the wonderful advice so far. I have been looking at F's all day and TTaylor had a great point and is absolutely correct about finding a nicely equipped F on my budget. That's definitly looking like the plane for me. Now I just need to sit in one. 

Hopefully you can sit in one while it's in flight. :-)

Here's a little advice on setting priorities. Remember, these are all old planes and no two will be alike. As it's been said, it's better to spend the money to buy the plane you want, rather than buy low thinking you'll fix it up later. You certainly will spend money and fix it up, but you'll save a lot of money by buying as much as you can up front.  When I was searching for my first Mooney, I came up with the figure of 4:1. For every $1 I spent up front on the cost of the plane, it would save me $4 to upgrade a lesser plane to the same point.  For example, adding a WAAS moving map GPS could cost you $10K to install finding a plane with one already installed is probably only $2500 more. These are of course rough numbers, but I've found them to be pretty accurate.  

So what to look for?  You'll want an Instrument rating soon, and Mooney's are very good IFR planes, so get one properly equipped.

Minimum requirements:
WAAS GPS such as GNS530W or GNS430W minimum.
HSI
Autopilot such as STec30/altitude hold as a minimum.

You'll also want an engine monitor and ADSB Transponder. But those can be added at fairly low cost. You could do each for under $5K.

Wishlist in order:
I also wanted an engine between 500 and 1000 hours in good condition. 
Manual Gear - much cheaper to maintain, cheaper at annual, bulletproof.
Speed Mods - Windshield, gap seals, wing tips, cowl, belly, etc.
Good 4-place intercom/audio panel. At least a GMA340.
2-blade Prop - Faster and lighter than a 3-blade. (Speed and useful load)
Nice Paint
Newer interior

Just my $0.02 - but my first Mooney checked all those boxes and I was VERY happy flying her through 400+ hours right up until the day I sold her.
 

[EtradeBaby]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hopefully you can sit in one while it's in flight. :-)

Here's a little advice on setting priorities. Remember, these are all old planes and no two will be alike. As it's been said, it's better to spend the money to buy the plane you want, rather than buy low thinking you'll fix it up later. You certainly will spend money and fix it up, but you'll save a lot of money by buying as much as you can up front.  When I was searching for my first Mooney, I came up with the figure of 4:1. For every $1 I spent up front on the cost of the plane, it would save me $4 to upgrade a lesser plane to the same point.  For example, adding a WAAS moving map GPS could cost you $10K to install finding a plane with one already installed is probably only $2500 more. These are of course rough numbers, but I've found them to be pretty accurate.  

So what to look for?  You'll want an Instrument rating soon, and Mooney's are very good IFR planes, so get one properly equipped.

Minimum requirements:
WAAS GPS such as GNS530W or GNS430W minimum.
HSI
Autopilot such as STec30/altitude hold as a minimum.

You'll also want an engine monitor and ADSB Transponder. But those can be added at fairly low cost. You could do each for under $5K.

Wishlist in order:
I also wanted an engine between 500 and 1000 hours in good condition. 
Manual Gear - much cheaper to maintain, cheaper at annual, bulletproof.
Speed Mods - Windshield, gap seals, wing tips, cowl, belly, etc.
Good 4-place intercom/audio panel. At least a GMA340.
2-blade Prop - Faster and lighter than a 3-blade. (Speed and useful load)
Nice Paint
Newer interior

Just my $0.02 - but my first Mooney checked all those boxes and I was VERY happy flying her through 400+ hours right up until the day I sold her.
 

   How hard is it to get the manual gear up on a climb out? Seems like it would be difficult unless you nose over. Not to mention I'm an I&E technician at my primary job. Which basically translates into liking all things electronic. So I was looking forward to the electric gear. Is there really a significant cost savings between the two? How do you manually lower the gear should the electric motor fail? 

  You also made me think of another question. Is it more important to find a lower time engine that hasn't flown much in the past decade or a higher time engine that see frequent usage? My background with automotive engines leads me to believe higher times are acceptable maybe even desireable if it was maintained well and overhauled recently. I've seen several planes with low time engines that were last overhauled when Bill Clinton was in office. I tend to want to shy away from those planes.