I need advice. Mooney, 182, or nothing.

[EtradeBaby]

Good afternoon everyone,

I am currently finishing up my PPL. I have a wife and a four year old. My local FBO only rents Cessna 172's @ 160hr. Wet. I expect my mission to usually include the three of us for ~ 250nm trips, but want to at least carry 3 adults and full fuel (pushing it in the 172).

Above all else I want to be safe. I plan to use whatever plane I purchase to immediately start instrument training.

I had originally planned on purchasing a 182, but after riding in one the other day I was more impressed with the g1000 it had than the plane itself.

Im not afraid to admit this is a scary descision for me. My wife wants me to go ahead and buy something so I'll shut up about it, but it's a friggin airplane. Seems like a poor or rushed descision could lead to deadly or at least costly mistakes. Which is why I'm here. I'm confused, frustrated, and need people with experience to say you can do this, these feelings are normal, or you aren't ready. You need to back up and punt.

Here is what I know (or think I know)

182:

145ktas, ~1200 lb useful, ~15 gph cruise, maintenance isn't terrible. Insurance is 1700 per yr.

Mooney M20j (seems like the model for me):

150ktas, ~1000 lb useful, 10 gph cruise, maintenance doesn't seem to be terrible either insurance is 3200 per year.

I had also considered 231, but keep reading conflicting articles about maintenance. Are they much more expensive to maintain? Is it worth the performance increase? One article said if you stay below 12k then buy a 201. Above buy a 252. I honestly have never been above 12k in a ga airplane, and have also read the time it takes to fill the oxygen bottles eats up the time saved on the trip. 

I'm looking at spending around 80k will consider going higher for good avionics. 

I do realize posting this on a Mooney forum will likely influence the advice but please try and be objective. I need a safe cost effective airplane that I can trust. 

Please help me - Travis 

Also, I've never actually ridden in a Mooney so if anyone is based near KDTN I'll buy the fuel!

[201er]

You'll find that ~250nm is essentially local flying in a Mooney. 

[Ron McBride]

As a Mooney fan.  I have ridden in 1 182 in over 40 years of flying, was not impressed.   Many pilots are.   Engine overhaul will be much cheaper on the Mooney.  Also, your insurance estimate seems high to me, maybe with more hours it will come down a lot.  My f is insured for $90,000.00 and I pay about a $1,000.00 per year.

Maintenance is not bad, but you need a reserve, all planes are getting older and will need more.  Avionics need to be updated, paint, interior etc. Buy the best plane that you can afford, the better the aircraft is, the better.   I have a small fortune in mine with updates.

Get a prepurchase inspection on aircraft purchased, by a quality shop that specializes in the plane.

Happy flying   Ron

 

[gsxrpilot]

It might not get you a ride in one, but you're just down the street from Mooney Central. Don Maxwell has his shop in Longview, TX and knows as much about Mooneys as maybe anyone on the planet. 

[DonMuncy]

Depending on the size of the three adults, full fuel will be bumping (or exceeding) max weight on most Mooneys.

I don't consider the time to fill O2 bottles to be a factor, but I have a 231 with built in O2.

You are unlikely to get much of a K model for $80,000.

I don't think the maintenance on a K is too much of a factor, but the "under 12,000, get a J" idea is probably worth considering. I really like the ability to go higher, but don't know if it is worth the extra expense.

I would suffer the problems you address to get a Mooney over a 182, but I'm biased.

[carusoam]

You should see 201er's M20J....

never mind, it's in Cuba today.....(yes, that Cuba...)

Know any C182s in Cuba today?

Well, that solves the question of what's a better Cross country airplane for me question....

I would prefer the what's a better out of this country plane for me.

Go Mooney!

As far as Family flying in a Mooney...

The two people in my avatar are not me and my wife.  They are the children in my family...

That picture was taken the day the M20R came home.  They used to be in the back of an M20C.

Did I say go Mooney?

 

One of the best ways to improve your level of safety is to really get to know your plane.  Having an IR goes a long way towards that goal.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

Good afternoon everyone,

I am currently finishing up my PPL. I have a wife and a four year old. My local FBO only rents Cessna 172's @ 160hr. Wet. I expect my mission to usually include the three of us for ~ 250nm trips, but want to at least carry 3 adults and full fuel (pushing it in the 172).

Above all else I want to be safe. I plan to use whatever plane I purchase to immediately start instrument training.

I had originally planned on purchasing a 182, but after riding in one the other day I was more impressed with the g1000 it had than the plane itself.

Im not afraid to admit this is a scary descision for me. My wife wants me to go ahead and buy something so I'll shut up about it, but it's a friggin airplane. Seems like a poor or rushed descision could lead to deadly or at least costly mistakes. Which is why I'm here. I'm confused, frustrated, and need people with experience to say you can do this, these feelings are normal, or you aren't ready. You need to back up and punt.

Here is what I know (or think I know)

182:

145ktas, ~1200 lb useful, ~15 gph cruise, maintenance isn't terrible. Insurance is 1700 per yr.

Mooney M20j (seems like the model for me):

150ktas, ~1000 lb useful, 10 gph cruise, maintenance doesn't seem to be terrible either insurance is 3200 per year.

I had also considered 231, but keep reading conflicting articles about maintenance. Are they much more expensive to maintain? Is it worth the performance increase? One article said if you stay below 12k then buy a 201. Above buy a 252. I honestly have never been above 12k in a ga airplane, and have also read the time it takes to fill the oxygen bottles eats up the time saved on the trip. 

I'm looking at spending around 80k will consider going higher for good avionics. 

I do realize posting this on a Mooney forum will likely influence the advice but please try and be objective. I need a safe cost effective airplane that I can trust. 

Please help me - Travis 

Also, I've never actually ridden in a Mooney so if anyone is based near KDTN I'll buy the fuel!

Travis,

Don't discount the Piper Comanche lineup.  I've owned 2 Mooney E models and currently a 400 HP Comanche.  I won't be switching back anytime soon.

Clarence

 

[kevinw]

A 182 owner once told me his airplane was like driving a pickup truck. I couldn't agree more. A Mooney, on the other hand, is like driving a sports car. Big difference there and therefore depends on what you want. Don't let the insurance scare you off. If you have little or even no complex time after one year and 60 hours or so it will drop significantly. I fly a J and love it. It's everything Mooney stands for; speed and efficiency. Easy to fly and easy to land as long as you're at the right approach angle at the correct speed. In cruise they're as stable as they get. Also check the safety record of the Mooney and you'll feel good flying your family in it.


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[gsxrpilot]

I fly a K 252 model and love it. But the K's suffer in the useful load department. 

I would say the J is the perfect compromise of speed, range, and useful load. And since you fly out of Louisiana you won't have high DA issues. Some of that state is actually below sea level, I believe.

And when it comes to maintenance on the Mooney, all the rest of us Mooney owners will be envious of how close you live to KGGG. That would be reason enough to own a Mooney.

 

[carusoam]

Travis,

If your kids have to go to college some day, a 400hp engine may stretch the budget a tad...

I wouldn't go much past 310hp, and I would ensure that it is mounted in an efficient airframe like a Mooney.

Clarence has brought up a brilliant idea!  An M20J can be outfitted with a 300hp IO550.  They call this a Missile.

We have a few Missile pilots around here too....

Good luck with your search.

Best regards,

-a-

[mccdeuce]

I just bought a J for a very similar mission to you. Husky pup instead of a the Kid.  

Ive looked a lot. Read a lot. Owned a Grumman before and would buy another Grumman. But ultimately a Mooney was a better choice for me. 

Every airplane is a trade off in something. While flying my new to me J home a Cirrus owner was headed almost the same track to the same destination. ATC told him I was ahead but that he would likely overtake as he had 20knots on me.  His response "Yup, Cirruses are faster" what he neglected to realize is that I was in a much older airplane with 100hp less. He was burning a heck of a lot more fuel. 

The point is you need to decide on the trade offs that are important to you. For me a good speed, low fuel burn, decent payload was what I wanted. So a 150kts, 10gph, 1000# aircraft is what I got.  

[smlynarczyk]

It is a struggle I have been through the last few months; 182? 172? M20K? M20J? M20F? M20C? Grumman TIger, Maule, Zenith 750 homebuilt, Avionics, Autopilots, Belly-ups, Engine Rebuilds, Top Overhauls,... the list goes on. You have done some good research I expect and these people here on this board are helpful (they have been for me). I am in the final stages of buying a plane and after all of the research and second guessing, I am back at a Mooney. Not an easy decision by any stretch. The one thing I can tell you that might help is that I visited a Mooney shop on the east coast where they took me into the repair area where they were working on a Mooney that had experienced a gear-up. I was impressed (and so was my wife) by the  undercarriage of the Mooney - it has a frame unlike like any plane I have seen (I have been helping build a Zenith 801HD BTW). It is built like a tank. Combined with the roll-cage, it makes for a little more peace of mind about the safety aspects of a Mooney especially given your family situation.

[carusoam]

Let's face it, choosing the Mooney is the easy part...  can you get by on a short body, or do you need the medium body?  Why not go full-in and get a long body?

 

What engine do you want to pull your Mooney around?

1) carb vs. fuel injection.

2) turbo vs. Normally aspirated.

3) four cylinder or six.

4) Trouble deciding, how about a TN'd six cylinder engine...?

5) Would you like some form of ice protection? Does the acronym FIKI sound familiar...?

Look up MS member Joe Zuffeletto, his Acclaim just hit the market.   310 TN'd HP perfect for flying from Denver to Mexico, replete with a FIKI system.  No better Mooney available today...

Welcome to the Mooney world!

Best regards,

-a-

[Marcopolo]

Travis,

 

  You do need to shop that insurance rate around a bit as I bought my M20K while the ink on my PPL was still wet.  I had zero complex and zero high performance time and less than 50 hrs total flying time and I was able to find insurance just under $2,000/yr.  You know the safety factor and you know the efficiency factor, maintenance is maintenance, its an airplane for heaven's sake.  Mooney parts may be just a bit more expensive than Cessnas but I don't think you'll need parts as often.

 

my 2 cents.

 

Ron

[KLRDMD]

32 minutes ago, EtradeBaby said:

182: 145ktas, ~1200 lb useful, ~15 gph cruise, maintenance isn't terrible. Insurance is 1700 per yr.

Mooney M20J: 150ktas, ~1000 lb useful, 10 gph cruise, maintenance doesn't seem to be terrible either insurance is 3200 per year.

I've owned two 182s and four Mooneys so I have a bit of real world experience comparing these two. First, don't plan on more than 135 KTAS out of an O-470 equipped 182 which is the vast majority of them. 1200 useful is possible but maybe a bit optimistic too but not by a lot. You should burn closer to 12.5 GPH in cruise in a 182 too.

I haven't owned a "J" model Mooney but your numbers are pretty accurate there except you may get a smidge more cruise speed on a bit less fuel flow than you quote. Insurance on the Mooney will fall dramatically the second year assuming you get a reasonable number of hours in type and complete your instrument rating.

The 182 has two doors, the Mooney one. The extra door is nice. 182s are drafty and "sloppy" in their controls compared to a Mooney which is tight and tight respectively.

I figure my current Mooney (231) to be cheaper per year to own and fly than my previous 182. Since the Mooney goes faster on less fuel, for any given trip you'll get there faster and on less fuel. The extra $$ at annual for a gear swing and extra insurance don't make up for even the extra fuel burn of the 182 - and that's neglecting the cost of time. I fly for business almost always and time is money.

My recommendation is get the Mooney and never look back, although the 182 is a very popular, safe, reliable airplane too.

[EtradeBaby]

Wow, I wasn't expecting so many responses so quickly. Thank you all for the advice. I do like the pickup vs sports car anology and that really pushes me towards the M20J. 

I have seen Don Maxwells name come up on several occasions and didn't realize we was located at KGGG. I may try to get in touch with him. Seems like he would be the best person to put the maintenance questions to rest. 

To be honest the 3200 insurance quote wasn't as bad as I expected considering I only have 4.2 hours in a complex. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, N803RM said:

As a Mooney fan.  I have ridden in 1 182 in over 40 years of flying, was not impressed.   Many pilots are.   Engine overhaul will be much cheaper on the Mooney.  Also, your insurance estimate seems high to me, maybe with more hours it will come down a lot.  My f is insured for $90,000.00 and I pay about a $1,000.00 per year.

Maintenance is not bad, but you need a reserve, all planes are getting older and will need more.  Avionics need to be updated, paint, interior etc. Buy the best plane that you can afford, the better the aircraft is, the better.   I have a small fortune in mine with updates.

Get a prepurchase inspection on aircraft purchased, by a quality shop that specializes in the plane.

Happy flying   Ron

 

That brings up another question. Since most of the avionics in the planes I've looked at are outdated what should I expect as a return on investment for installing updated equipment? Is it just a loss or can you expect to get a reasonable % of your money back should you choose to sell?

 

[dlthig]

You need to take a ride before you buy. I doubt that you've purchased a car without driving it first, same with airplanes. I probably have a lot less Mooney time than most on this board, but I have flown a bit in the others. I don't know that a $80K 182 will do 145kts. Similarly, 1000lbs is all of a J's useful load, as they get in the mid-80s you'll see 900. Some are advertised with less. I do like Comanches, but the last one was built in 1972, MX and parts may become unpleasant. Also, where will you be flying it? Grass, paved short or long? I've flown some STOL equipped 182s that don't need much runway and the gear is welded. Something else to consider. Continuing the confusion... there are several airplane cost calculators in the download section here on Mooneyspace. They have an annoying way of displaying reality. Depending on how many hours you fly, you may want to stick with renting. Sorry about that.

[gsengle]

The conventional wisdom is it is way cheaper to buy with stuff already installed. Aka buy the nicest plane you can afford.

Also, glass is overrated imho


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[KSMooniac]

On average you might get 50% back on any improvements...avionics, paint, etc. Better to buy as much as you can with the initial purchase and let the previous owner pay for those things. You'll still find lots you want to improve, though!

Go visit Don and you will get to see a broad spectrum of Mooneys in one stop. He also might know of a candidate plane before it hits the market.

Any Mooney will suit you well for a long time. Just get some excellent transition training and get the instrument rating in your first year. You'll be a far safer pilot, get more utility from your plane, and dramatically reduce your insurance costs.

Happy hunting!

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[AaronDC8402]

I've now got about as much time in our recently acquired J as I have in the local flying club's 182RG. Probably about 50 hours each. Both planes are about the same true air speed. The 182 burns more fuel (15gph vs 10gph). The fuel difference is really a pretty small difference compared to the total operating cost.

Most of my primary and IFR training was in low-wing aircraft. I've never felt 100% comfortable with the visibility turning in the pattern in a high wing. Other than that, the high wing gives a lot of functional benefits; shade and rain cover on the ramp before getting in the plane, extra shade (in some situations) while flying, more convenient pre-flight since you don't crawl under the wing. The 182 definitely feels like a pick-up truck which wasn't necessarily a problem for me, but I prefer the Mooney seating position.

My wife and son also ride with me on occasion. In the 182, it was always kid in the back by himself and mom right front seat. The rear seat of the 182 is too narrow for the kid seat and mom to sit comfortably. In the Mooney, the rear seats have lots of room in our '89 J (split rear seat). Mom and son are both better off together in the rear. I greatly prefer the handling of the Mooney over the 182. Feels more refined in all aspects. 

 

[carusoam]

E-trade,

you have selected a funny name for a reason...

Are you familiar with the buy and hold strategy?

Avionics are a buy and hold strategy item.  Mostly because the installation cost is so high (you’ll need to define high for yourself).

Some used avionics like a WAAS GPS costs as much to install as a new one does.

We can clearly state...  new avionics will help sell your plane faster than a similar plane with old avionics....

Airplanes don't make very good short term investments.  They are fantastic long term devices that you can use for travel.

Inflation has started yet,  but when it comes...  the installation costs won't seem so big over time...

buy the plane with the most updated equipment that you will use.  The stuff gets old in a decade.  If you pay for things that you won't use, you run the risk of not getting the value out of it.

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Don't compare planes by useful load. Compare them in either of two ways:  1) full fuel useful load; 2) useful load remaining when fueled for your long, heavy trips. Sure, the 182 has an extra 200 lbs. of useful load, but it carries 15-20 extra gallons of fuel (20 gal = 120 lb, there goes most of the extra useful load) and probably won't go as far as the J on it's smaller full tank of fuel.

I bought my M20-C with 62 hours and 0 complex. I flew 100 hours in the first year, my insurance dropped in half at renewal. When I got my Instrument rating a couple of years later, the rates fell another third, and continue to step down a little more every year.

Flew a 182 one year to pick up the High Performance endorsement during a flight review. The controls were heavier, climb didn't seem as good as my 180 hp, and it really liked to slow down and descend. My Mooney likes to fly, builds speed easily on descent, burns 9 gph and will walk away from a 182 at 140+ knots with full fuel, myself and my favorite 470 lb of other people and stuff. I've gone 4:40 in the air, diverting around reported icing into the wind, and landed with 12 gals (1:20 minutes worth). How far can you fly a 182 with full fuel and three adult passengers? 

P.S.--J models are more fuel efficient, and faster, than my C.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Hank

[EtradeBaby]

34 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

Travis,

 

  You do need to shop that insurance rate around a bit as I bought my M20K while the ink on my PPL was still wet.  I had zero complex and zero high performance time and less than 50 hrs total flying time and I was able to find insurance just under $2,000/yr.  You know the safety factor and you know the efficiency factor, maintenance is maintenance, its an airplane for heaven's sake.  Mooney parts may be just a bit more expensive than Cessnas but I don't think you'll need parts as often.

 

my 2 cents.

 

Ron

That was an AOPA quote. Who is your insurance provider I need to check them out. 

24 minutes ago, dlthig said:

You need to take a ride before you buy. I doubt that you've purchased a car without driving it first, same with airplanes. I probably have a lot less Mooney time than most on this board, but I have flown a bit in the others. I don't know that a $80K 182 will do 145kts. Similarly, 1000lbs is all of a J's useful load, as they get in the mid-80s you'll see 900. Some are advertised with less. I do like Comanches, but the last one was built in 1972, MX and parts may become unpleasant. Also, where will you be flying it? Grass, paved short or long? I've flown some STOL equipped 182s that don't need much runway and the gear is welded. Something else to consider. Continuing the confusion... there are several airplane cost calculators in the download section here on Mooneyspace. They have an annoying way of displaying reality. Depending on how many hours you fly, you may want to stick with renting. Sorry about that.

I don't think I'll be doing many soft field landings. I don't even have an actual soft field I can practice on around here. 

Most of my trips will be between Dallas, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and Birmingham. Even then those trips will likely only be on a monthly basis. 

24 minutes ago, dlthig said:

You need to take a ride before you buy. I doubt that you've purchased a car without driving it first, same with airplanes. I probably have a lot less Mooney time than most on this board, but I have flown a bit in the others. I don't know that a $80K 182 will do 145kts. Similarly, 1000lbs is all of a J's useful load, as they get in the mid-80s you'll see 900. Some are advertised with less. I do like Comanches, but the last one was built in 1972, MX and parts may become unpleasant. Also, where will you be flying it? Grass, paved short or long? I've flown some STOL equipped 182s that don't need much runway and the gear is welded. Something else to consider. Continuing the confusion... there are several airplane cost calculators in the download section here on Mooneyspace. They have an annoying way of displaying reality. Depending on how many hours you fly, you may want to stick with renting. Sorry about that.

I absolutely would consider just sticking to renting if I could at least rent a 182. But a 172 just isn't going to cut it for very long. Especially knowing I could be going 45 knots faster on the same fuel burn. That and most of my trips will be overnight. That means paying the $480 ( 3 hr minimum per day) just to sit on the ramp. That stings. 

[DaV8or]

To the OP-

I have about 150 hours in two O-470 powered 182s. Never liked them because they are air-trucks, not airplanes. They do one thing really well, haul a respectable load off a short runway and climb pretty good. I only flew them because they were available all the time in the club I used to rent from and faster than the Warriors and Skyhawks. No way they would cruise at 145kts. I think the upgraded modern ones can do that though.

The things you need to ask yourself are, will there be any more children and how much stuff does your wife and child need to travel with. The number one thing that makes Mooney owners switch to another brand is the need for more space and more useful load. I have never seen a Mooney owner switch to a 182. They usually go either to a twin engine plane, or the Beechcraft Bonanza. If you feel you need the space, I would skip shopping the 182 and look at Bonanzas unless you plan to operate out of short strips. 

If you think you can pack light and you are done with expanding your family, the M20J is a great choice. You will save money operating it over a Bonanza and it will be much faster than the 182. Best to have your wife check out a Mooney first before you go to far.

[Raptor05121]

I would also like to chime in. I'm just a 150 hour PPL, 25 years old, new Mooney owner. Yes, this is a Mooney forum, and yes, the 182 is perhaps one of the best all-around airplane out there (sans the Bonanza), but if you further define your mission, it will help pick a clear winner.

I got my High Performance in a O-470 182 on tundra tires. I've only got 0.7 in one but I was impressed with the room, ingress, and egress. Very "spongy" controls. Its a heavy 172 as a 172 is a heavy 152. If I couldn't have my Mooney, my next choice would be a 180hp Comanche. Larger tanks, more room, slightly less speed. Same engine, same fuel burn. After that would be a 182RG. I'm not a fan of the fixed gears. The 182 is better future-proof for you, with the kid growing up in the back seat. Yeah the 201 is doable, but once he grows, he might need more room.

Fly in a Mooney and drop the gear, you'll lose 10knots like that. Likewise, sucking it up, you'll feel the plane slip forward as if you just cast away from being tied down to a dock. Dragging gear is not how an airplane was meant to fly. Sucking gear and flaps up, getting the Mooney into is speed regime, it feels like a sports car. Likewise, getting in and out of my C model is a PITA compared to a 182, but after you are strapped in, you feel like you just strapped on 35' wings. The 182, you feel like you are sitting atop a boat and you're driving a yacht.

Be sure to get a ride in the 201 and then go on the 182 forums, let them tell you how great the 182 is. It's a wonderful airplane, but if you are going somewhere, there is only one airplane with a built-in tailwind.

Another great feature of Brand M is the camaraderie. If I land into an airport, and you see another Mooney, you are guaranteed a wave and striking up a conversation that will last a while. Always great group of people that stick together and always have a good time. I've met several from the forums here and it's like a family.

Edited to add: Most pilots know AOPA and AVEMCO insurance are the "big hitters". They are well-known and expensive. Find a broker and shop smaller. Falcon is well-known and well-respected in the Mooney community.