C to E engine upgrade

[gsxrpilot]

Ok I'm sure this is a crazy, ridiculous, thought. And with the grilling soon to come from the esteemed on this forum, the flame suit is on.

I love my C and think it's one of the best examples of the type.  But I hate the carburetor. Some days I can get down to 8 gph comfortably and other days I struggle to do better than 12 gph. My engine monitor dances all over the place and is often flicking back and forth from Rich to Lean and back over the course of a three hour, straight and level flight at say 8000 ft.  The engine is strong and runs great. I've not had any problems with it at all. But I'm so envious of the IO360s with Gami's that can be so smoothly and accurately managed in flight.

I don't need the extra space aft of the front seats and have no issues with the flying stability of the short body. So ideally I should sell the C and find an E.  The problem is I don't think there is an E that is as nice as my C.  I'd be going backwards with panel, mods, paint, interior, or all of it.

LASAR has an STC to put the IO360 into the C. And if it were time for a major on my engine, I'd jump on that STC and get an engine with fuel injection.  But I'm only at 1100 hours since new on my O360.  I'm not sure I want to fly another 1000 hours with this carburetor.

Has anyone ever swapped out a perfectly good low time engine for something else? Would I just be throwing away the engine I have or is there value in it? I'm sure the conventional wisdom is to sell the C and get a J. But it's even difficult to find J's as nicely set up as my C. And when I do find them, it would take my C and more than $60K to acquire.

What would you do?  I should probably shut up and go fly. BTW I'm flying about 180 hours per year.

 

[cctsurf]

With that engine, I certainly wouldn't trade off...

I wonder about the carburetor...  I realize they can be harder than injection to lean, but lots of people are running them just fine without the problems you are mentioning.  It might be time for an overhaul on that carb.

Another question, how are you flying your carburetor?  There are a number of theories about carb operations, Here is the one to which I subscribe:  http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/cruisepower.html

It is my understanding that keeping the throttle open full or slightly pulled back to mix the air will produce the best, most even distribution to the cylinders.  You have an engine analyzer, you can do a better job of seeing this than I can.  But my plane has been flown forever with this setup, and it has always done well.

Just My $.02

James

[HRM]

33 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Ok I'm sure this is a crazy, ridiculous, thought. And with the grilling soon to come from the esteemed on this forum, the flame suit is on.

...

What would you do?  I should probably shut up and go fly. BTW I'm flying about 180 hours per year.

Yes. No flames, just think about it.

Sell C, buy E.

[Bob_Belville]

With an appropriate deposit you can get on and perhaps move the bidder list for my E when Nancy is disposing of my toys. I'm older than dirt so that will like likely come before you reach TBO. 

Of course if your panel is nicer than my modest set up you might turn your nose up.

My recent gami lean check indicates I can run 50 LOP on either Mag with gami spreads ov about 0.3 gph. But I usually would rather see 155-160 ktas ROP. 

Seriously, istm that, as James points out, many C owners here are happy as clams and can be counted on to sing the praises of their carbed engine any time IO360 owners are seeking hot start advice. Get you bird tuned up!

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

With an appropriate deposit you can get on and perhaps move the bidder list for my E when Nancy is disposing of my toys. I'm older than dirt so that will like likely come before you reach TBO. 

Of course if your panel is nicer than my modest set up you might turn your nose up.

My recent gami lean check indicates I can run 50 LOP on either Mag with gami spreads ov about 0.3 gph. But I usually would rather see 155-160 ktas ROP. 

Seriously, istm that, as James points out, many C owners here are happy as clams and can be counted on to sing the praises of their carbed engine any time IO360 owners are seeking hot start advice. Get you bird tuned up!

Bob, your E is perfect and exactly what I'm looking for, but unfortunately you're still flying it ;-) I've got nicer yokes but other than that, yours is the best. I'll have to send Nancy that deposit. :-)

 

[carusoam]

Tell us about your carb OH.  Was it done this century? If yes, by who?  Is there an MS recommended carb shop to go to?

The carb's soldier on endlessly slowly losing the sharpness of their skills.

until recently, there were few people that hung an engine monitor, FF sensor or carb temp on the O360. The precise baseline of it's performance isn't well known.

i can only imagine a float and corresponding valve wear causing some of the unusual issues that show up only with improved technical monitoring...

operating deep ROP with minimal instrumentation probably covers a lot of ills.

------

Baseline cost of swapping out an engine is huge. About 2X of just getting a good factory reman (which is large)....

Engine, mount, prop, spinner, instruments, cowl, STC, R&R and paint finishing.

It makes the most sense when the engine is fully run-out, the prop has a recent prop strike, and you have months of no need to fly it....

--------

then compare these costs to the price of a whole plane....

Advantage: This E is currently flying...

----

CB budget:  Start collecting bits and pieces at good prices.  Make sure everything including paperwork is available...

Best regards,

-a-

[Oscar Avalle]

I understand perfectly well where you are coming from. I had my C for over 10 years, and I have nurtured it, upgraded the panel, etc. I don't see myself selling it in the near future... but of course it would be great to have those 20HP more...

 

[Oscar Avalle]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

With an appropriate deposit you can get on and perhaps move the bidder list for my E when Nancy is disposing of my toys. I'm older than dirt so that will like likely come before you reach TBO. 

Of course if your panel is nicer than my modest set up you might turn your nose up.

My recent gami lean check indicates I can run 50 LOP on either Mag with gami spreads ov about 0.3 gph. But I usually would rather see 155-160 ktas ROP. 

Seriously, istm that, as James points out, many C owners here are happy as clams and can be counted on to sing the praises of their carbed engine any time IO360 owners are seeking hot start advice. Get you bird tuned up!

Bob,

Very nice set up!

[BDPetersen]

I note an 1100 hr IO-360 fwf on an E on eBay. Your engine is worth a lot. Might be less painful than you think. (If you take it I won't have to think about it myself.)

 

[KSMooniac]

A home builder would likely snap up your O-360 quickly for reasonable money. It would be harder to find an equivalent IO-360 to replace it, or at least one without damage, good logs, etc. If you're really serious, start shopping for the IO-360 and make sure the LASAR STC is still available. There might be additional parts to procure with it as well. If you have the cash, buy the IO when available, overhaul it if needed, gather remaining parts, etc. Then sell your O on barnstormers.

You might have to buy an entire salvage plane to get an engine. Best case would be a hail claim or other ground damage while not running. But then you'd have to deal with the rest of the carcass...which might be fun or a huge pain depending on your situation. If you're patient and enjoy the hunt/scrounging, it might be a good project. If you'd rather just have someone convert it for you, it will be very expensive.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DXB]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

 But I hate the carburetor. Some days I can get down to 8 gph comfortably and other days I struggle to do better than 12 gph. My engine monitor dances all over the place and is often flicking back and forth from Rich to Lean and back over the course of a three hour, straight and level flight at say 8000 ft.  T

This doesn't fit my experience at all in my carb'd C.   The amount that I can lean is really pretty consistent at a given DA and power setting. At 8000, 2500, WOT, I've never had trouble getting under 10gph, and I've never gotten anywhere close to 8gph.  I only need to make slight occasional mixture adjustments in flight. What is variable is the identity of the leanest cylinder between flights. So maybe something's up with your carb or induction system?

Saving about 1gph by running LOP in a precise way would be nice, but it will take an eternity  to make your money back on this project based on the fuel savings.  I seem to hear more about IO-360 fuel injection problems on this board than O-360 carb problems? I've heard it said that the O-360 is more "bulletproof" but don't actually have the expertise to judge.  Still, I'm going on the record here by saying I love my carb.  

Then again, maybe I'm just another crazy Mooney owner who irrationally loves everything about his plane...

[par]

While I don't see the kind of inconsistency  you are seeing, I have been able to get my fuel flow below 8gph at or above 8k. I do however find the following on my engine as I lean it:

-#3 like to run warm (380+) at full while while all other cylinders run 20-30 degrees cooler.

-As I begin leaning after leveling off, #3 CHT will drop rapidly to the 350 range while #2 and #4 will start to increase towards 380+

-I can usually lean to about 8.5gph consistently on every flight but to go lower is no guarantee. The picture below shows one of my flights where I was seeing 7.5gph or less. 

-on my last flight, I had a tough time keeping #2 and #4 below 390 in cruise. My fuel flow was sitting right around 8.5 on that flight. OAT was around 14 degrees though compared to 1 degree in the picture below.

It would be nice to see the same numbers every time but that can only happen after spending a ton of money on a devil I know nothing about. 

[Andy95W]

Just MHO, and I'm biased because I'm a happy 'C' owner:

For the money you're looking at, you may be better off-

1.) Powerflow exhaust (better breathing through the engine)

2.) carburetor overhaul at your next annual (just in case- also the Powerflow likes a particular one- Don Maxwell should know)

3.) running the engine like Hank has suggested he runs his (me too, but I'll gladly give him credit)

- WOT, then backed off just a bit until you see M.P. just barely move (swirls the fuel/air mix)

- just a touch of carb heat (atomizes the fuel better)

If nothing else, that gives you some time to have Don Maxwell start the search for an E that compares to your C.  I have never heard of anyone who thought the engine trade up was financially equitable to just buying a nice E outright.

[mike20papa]

This what my A model performs at.  About 500hrs on newly OH carb & engine.  Yes, the fuel flow maybe +/- depending on if the float needle valve open or closed, but these are one hell of a (certified) economical, engine/airframe combination.  I need to pull & hone the cylinders on left bank and replace rings.  Comp. still in the 70's, but pulls through cold with "truth be known".  Fly on.

[mooniac15u]

Is the E cowling also different to accommodate the different engine?

[carusoam]

Some minor enhancements... To fit the FIs.

-a-

[mike28w]

I'd overhaul that carb before changing planes !    My C doesn't run like your's .....

[Guest]

Does your C have the correct carburetor as required in the Type Certificate?

Clarence

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Does your C have the correct carburetor as required in the Type Certificate?

Clarence

Marvel-Schebler, but check the letter after the dash.

As mentioned above, it sounds like your C isn't running right. I don't have fuel flow, but mine runs well at (WOT - a tad) and leaned to the oh-so-despised 50°F ROP, and I get pretty much 9 gph block time. Full throttle / 2700 climb, set power, lean; to descend, I push for 500 fpm, trim forces away and occasionally pull throttle out and ease mixture in to maintain cruise values of MP and EGT. When I level off, I reset an appropriate power for that altitude and relean. My target is TPA around 3 nm out so that I have time to bleed off extra speed, as I'm pretty much descending around 170-175 MPHI.

I've tried flying WOT, but all it did was burn a couple of extra gph for pretty much no discernible extra speed.

If I'm flying around 8500 or higher, sometimes I'll leave the engine leaned to peak. Now that I've OHed the carb, resurrected my doghouse over two annuals and replaced the muffler (had a hand-sized hole on the bottom where everything came together, but no CO problem), I can now run sometimes as much as 25°F LOP. But it sure is slow . . .

Find what isn't right and fix it, you'll love with your C all over again. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Hank

[Hector]

You have a carb problem most likely. My C runs like a top. Have owned it for 5 years now with 1300 hours on the motor and I could not be happier. My engine monitor shows everything very stable in flight with no leaning issues whatsoever. Only minor adjustments required. If I ran into the issues you are having I would highly suspect the carburetor and would get it checked or overhauled ASAP

[KSMooniac]

Jimmy Garrison is advertising a removed complete IO-360-A3B6D on barnstormers right now.  You don't see these often at all, so if you really want to pursue the conversion this might be the way to start!  Check to make sure the LASAR STC allows this engine and not just the -A1A from the E/F.  The -A3B6D will be newer and smooth with the balanced crank, but it has the dual/siamese mag.

EDIT:  There is also an -A1A listed by an AZ salvage company. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by KSMooniac

[gsxrpilot]

So I talked to LASAR.  

1. The STC is available and covers all Lycoming IO-360-xxx models.
2. Lot's of other stuff has to be replaced including cowl, engine controls, motor mount, engine instruments, etc. 
3. He said according to Lycoming the O360 actually produces about 184 HP and the IO360 only produces about 195HP.
4. After describing the frustration with my C, it was suggested to get the carburetor checked, serviced, overhauled. (Pretty much what all of you said)

It's been said before, but there's a heap of good expertise on this forum.  

Thanks!

[takair]

Make sure you don't have an intake leaks. Can't recall the intake manifold config on the C, but there is typically a number of opportunities for leaks which may show up as inconsistent leaning.  Would be a shame to overhaul the carb only to find a bad gasket or oring.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Don't be goofy.  You have a beautiful plane.  20HP is no big deal.  I like the ideas of a power flow exhaust and burning a little more gas if you want to go a "little" faster.  'Cause that is all it is.  You are the cow looking at that grass.  Just keep eating what is on your side of the fence.  It looks pretty damn good to me.

[Guest]

Check that your carburetor is one of the following per the type certificate"

(Carburetor MA4-5, Flow Setting P/N 10-3878, 10-3878-M, or 10-4164-1). 

Clarence