What should i get?

[carusoam]

Sam,

How many different people have suggested to you to slow the plan down?

One guy even logged in on his first post ever, to say how complex/unusual your plan is.

One of the best articulated responses said he didn't want to see another young guy end up in trouble.  We have had too many here.

You are pretty much ignoring the overwhelming responses and focusing on buying a quarter million dollar ride for a couple of pets?  Sounds good to me!

You have me nearly convinced, I hear pets actually prefer plastic planes with parachutes.

What is it you don't like about the advice that people are going out of the way to tell you?

Having a stack of cash doesn't provide for safety.  It doesn't provide a short cut to the experience you want to have.  It provides for training and the ability to do some things a second time.

Spend your money wisely.  It is better for you.

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

30 years ago, the V-tailed Bonanza was nicknamed the "fork-tailed Doctor killer" because so many doctors had the money, but not the experience or judgement, to own one.

[Samurai Husky]

I dont know how to respond to some of your statements because they are coming from a place that is obviously deeper then i am aware of. I am deeply sorry for the loss this board has suffered, it must have been recently and very difficult because i can see the choice of word you are using. But i think you missed some of the statements I made in previous posts, because Im being accused of not listening despite my earlier posts.

If you still think i am missing something and want to get through to me your going to have to spell it out in a very technical manor. Just saying 'you dont know what your getting your self into so, stop' isnt going to work, if anything its probably having the opposite effect. I had already spelled out very clearly how much flying meant to me, so your statements about money and motivation that i am simply doing this for my dogs or that simply throwing money at this is very insulting.  I think you also accused me earlier of holding information back, which to me was also a bit off since i have been nothing but open and honest through this whole thread.

What you say is slow down. But what does that mean? What do you think I am about to do that you seem to think i am getting in over my head? I have some people saying the plane i am learning on is the same class; So what is it that i am missing? Im already cruising at 125-140kts; whats another 50? You seem to think that the extra 50 makes a big difference, but you havent really said what that 50 means in technical terms. i have full faith that my instructor and flying club members will tell me how I am progressing. If they say i'm not ready, then I'm not ready, but at least their opinions will be based on actual data instead of perception based on some forum posts.

IDK, seems like people think im going to show up next week and say 'guess what, i own a plane'; When i have stated several times that's not my intention. I plan on having at least 75-100hrs before i seriously start looking at planes. Maybe thats not enough, or maybe its just enough. I wont know until i get there but let me at least get there before we start judging what i can and cant do. Though depending on weather, i plan on being there before the Fall rain starts. 

Right now its all window shopping so that I am prepared. Once I find a model of a plane or a few models that i like, I plan on finding a CSI to check them out (or maybe getting a forum member to help me out, since i wont have enough time to be able to rent them on my own); Just to see if i like the thing; If i didnt fly the Cirrus, i wouldn't have know how much i didnt like the left stick. Maybe i will fly a mooney and feel like the ground clearance is too low, or that its too hard to land as i have read at other websites. Maybe i will still end up in a p210; Who knows?

Eventually if i do settle on a specific plane; then there is the whole pre-buy, inspection etc. That may or may not work out and end up right back at the drawing board; If that plane happens to be a complex, then yes, I plan on hiring a CSI to train me in that specific plane.

Sure, i have posted some links to planes for sale today and maybe they wont be there later; what I am here for is information. Every plane and every pilot is different and right now i get the feeling i am being compared to someone i dont even know.

 

 

[Hank]

Samurai, we just don't want you to end up like the young, inexperienced drivers who end up in high-powered cars, roaring through curves, sliding, and wrapping around trees. It's more likely with a high-powered airplane. Because we don't know you personally,we can only give generic advice, which is to let the high flying, long range turbo plane come a little later in your flying career, as there are many factors beyond pushing in the throttle and setting RPM and mixture that come into play with that kind of flying.

For now,concentrate on getting your PPL, then fly further afield and get some experience dealing with less-than-teener terrain, and see how well weather forecasts match up with what you find a few hundred miles up the coast. There have only been two big losses from MS that I can recall clearly, Patrick several years ago went down on takeoff (from an intersection, in the rain, with two passengers; three college funerals) and recently Houman went down in a Rocket near his home field, returning from a trip with his young son. We don't want any more of these to happen, so we caution smaller steps as you gain experience rather than giant leaps.

Some people can do what you want to do. But more people cannot. From your posts, we see your enthusiasm but cannot see your abilities; but in aviation, judgement is often more important than ability, and like experience, it is gained slowly. Bad judgement often teaches very well to those who survive . . . There are some lessons that cannot be repeated.

Best wishes to you as you pursue your dreams! I bought my Mooney, a C model, five weeks after my PPL, and others here did the same with other models. It can be done, with good instruction and good judgement. But we cannot tell much about your judgement or experience here, so we advise with caution. To protect you.

Have lots of fun, fly a lot of planes, and fly safely!

[PTK]

It should be requirement in the curriculum for every student about to enter high school to visit a local hospital ER, ICU and maybe the morgue. There he/she will be able to see with their own eyes the consequences of the "invincibility complex",  recklessness and poor judgement. They'll see with their own eyes what smoking will do to you. Or wrapping a car around a tree will do. They'll see with their own eyes what drinking or drug use does to you. Hopefully when they see with their own eyes other kids, their peers, hanging on a thread for dear life, or worse, in a hospital then maybe just maybe it'll click in their head!

Similarly for us, pilot training should include mandatory reading of NTSB reports. So we can see with our own eyes what our peers have gone through. Maybe then it'll click.

The lucky ones were bitten but were let go. The not so lucky were bitten, taken down and never let go.

 

[mooniac15u]

6 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

I dont know how to respond to some of your statements because they are coming from a place that is obviously deeper then i am aware of. I am deeply sorry for the loss this board has suffered, it must have been recently and very difficult because i can see the choice of word you are using. But i think you missed some of the statements I made in previous posts, because Im being accused of not listening despite my earlier posts.

Houman was a well liked and well respected member of the MS community, and known personally to several folks here.  He was a low-time Rocket owner.  His loss was felt deeply and personally by many here.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17344-mooney-down-around-montr%C3%A9al/

[Hank]

Samurai --

"Slow down" isn't just about airspeed, you can certainly adjust to that. It's also about complex systems -- turbochargers, intercoolers, oxygen systems, pressurization systems,  etc., in addition to what keeps the plane flying. You need to understand how they work, how they fail and what to do when they fail. 

It is generally recommended to learn to fly, then add complex / HP endorsements, gain some experience, add Instrument Rating, get some experience, then add on turbocharging, high altitude, etc. Weather changes, systems fail, the pilot must deal with these while flying the plane, navigating, talking on the radio, dealing with passengers. There's little time for confusion. 

Thus the repeated suggestions to slow down and move one step at a time. 

If an Acclaim is available, take it out with a CFI. It's a Bravo (M20M) without the turbo and oxygen system. Both are long bodies. Rockets are somewhat shorter with mostly less baggage space. 

Please stay around. We love new pilots, we just don't want you to push too hard too soon. 

[carusoam]

Sam,

The best part about you walking in here is you get the respect of many people.  They offer expertise based on what they know. How they have done things and how other people they know have done things.

You have been given some insight similar to other sites you have visited.

Try not to feel 'judged' when people are honestly trying to help get to your next level.  They asked you several questions to ascertain your level of experience and where you are trying to go.  Your response keeps coming back that somebody has judged you as an immature 22 year old...

1) Around here, people like their Mooneys.

2) Some work in the aviation industry supporting Mooneys. Some fly jets at work. Some are doctors, engineers and one is an EMS dispatcher.

3) Other's have saved and saved for years to buy an ancient Mooney, others buy their Mooneys new from the factory.

4) Cross Country flying has some dangers that are independent of airframe and the airframe's speed.

5) Some people here work in the same oil industry that you boasted selling short. That may have not gone over well.  One guy works in a business that supports the local oil business in TX.  When the Oil business is down it effects his business.

6) We have experienced some real losses as well as some surreal ones by low time pilots. The more pilots you get to know the more losses you are going to experience.  Helping people avoid losses is what we do (through casual conversation) around here.

7) You are only known here by how much you write here.  With 15 posts, you are a known unknown.  Visible on the radar, but not much more than that.

8) Imagine MooneySpace like an airport café.  

  - You are at the Mooney table discussing your aviation thoughts.  

  - You are the new guy among some people that have been here a while.

  - How is it different from the endless Internet?

9) There are multiple ways to learn to drive a car.  Very few people learn the basics of how to drive in a Maserati with an Andretti teaching the class.  It would make less sense than learning the basics from a professional trainer teaching in a training vehicle.

10) Collecting experience can take a lot of time.  Find the thread where many people gave their total flight time for the year. One Mooney guy has collected experience over a one year period better than anyone else.  He has received a lot of advice along the way as well.  His objective is very clear.  His plane and his training make sense for his situation.  He is trying at a quite high rate.

 

See if you can make sense out of this.  Rest assured nobody is picking on you or judging you.  You will recognize that if it were to happen.  It would counter what MS is here for.

Best regards,

-a-

[Seth]

I like the old saying that when you get your pilot's license you have two bags.  One full off luck and one empty with experience.  As you gain experience, that bag fills up.  You use up your luck As you survive questionable situations.  In the end we want to make sure your bag of experience is full enough before you run out of luck.

The M20K Rocket is the mid length body.

The M20M Bravo is the long body (Mooney's response to the aftermarket modified Rocket)

The M20TN Acclaim is the replacement for the M20M Bravo, also a longbody.  It was just replaced by the yet to be FAA approved M20V Acclaim Ultra.

The rear seats in the Bravo and Acclaim should be easily removable.  The M20K Rocket all depends on what year and what interior upgrades may have occurred.  Seats are always removable, but after certain years or after a modification it's a few minutes vs contorted positions and unscrewing.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing your continued aviation development and first aircraft purchase!

 

-Seth

 

 

 

[bonal]

I can understand how you might think we are trying to discourage you in your pursuit of obtaining a high performance airplane and getting on with long distance travel. It's only because we have lots of examples where this has led to a bad outcome. I also understand since you know what kind of performance you want that you don't want to go through a process of upgrading airplanes from both an economic and time strain process. Buying and especially selling can be a pain in the butt. Keep on with your training if you find yourself the Mooney you desire I say go for it but once you have it and your PPL get a good Mooney CFI and start logging hours with that instructor. Don K. Is based right where you are I think you might start a dialogue with him. You have the financial means to acquire the airplane of your dreams but even better the means to afford some real in depth training. I have never met Don but from all I have read this guy is one serious Mooney instructor. I'm curious at what stage of your training have you reached. Have you soloed yet done much cross country ? Being in the SFO area you are most likely getting lots of exposure to ATC and that's good. I am coming up on 500 hours and the one thing I have learned is how much more I need to learn. Please don't get discouraged because folks are telling you things you might not like to hear believe me when I say all want you to succeed but more importantly all want you to be safe and have a long and successful life in aviation.

[DonMuncy]

The responses I have seen on this thread are some of the most well reasoned and insightful I have read lately. Kudos to you guys.

[PMcClure]

If you are going to get a HP aircraft, I say go ahead and do it. There are several Mooneys that fit the bill. Other types too. But realize what you don't know yet (what everyone is telling you here) and set aside a generous budget for CFI time on those XC flights. Get your IR ASAP and plan on lot's of insurance cost and no-go's until you do. 

I bought an F model right after I got my PPL. After building some experience, I purchased a B36 which is no beginner airplane. After 100+ hours of dual time on trips, including meals, hotels, etc... it didn't feel like drinking from a fire hose anymore. Even with my Ovation now, I will bring a CFI along if I think it is a challenging trip.

The personal airline isn't really a myth but it rarely works like you want it to. Backup is required when you HAVE to be somewhere. Charter, Commercial, Drive, etc.. be ready to do this anytime you have a trip. Weather, maintenance issues, etc... will keep you grounded more than the marketing brochure on any plane will admit. So far my Ovation has a 100% despatch rate over 3 years. But I still can't depend on GA to get me there for the Have to meetings. Flexibility is key. Case in point is this week. I have a meeting in NC that I have to get to. Storms are moving in to the SE. I may have to leave a day earlier and return a day later. Also have a back-up with Southwest already booked and am prepared to drive if I have too. That is reality with  GA. Accept it. The dream of freely roaming the country does't connect with hard timelines. You can have one or the other. If you have both, you better be a pro with pro equipment.

Accept what you don't know, set aside lots of money and time to get what you need to fulfill your dream. Best of luck.

As for the plane to get - I think an Ovation/ 300hp Eagle would work well. If you feel you need a turbo - why not an Acclaim? Going to have a wife anytime soon? Need TKS? Air Conditioning? Wife, Dogs, luggage, +500 nm XC  - you are now pushing the limit of any GA plane unless you go twin or turboprop. But that can be the next step. 

[kevinw]

You, like every pilot, want to fly the fastest, newest, most complex airplane possible. I get that. If money wasn't an issue and I could afford a TBM 850 it would take a lot of will power not to buy one. But for a 500 hour pilot with an instrument rating it would be both foolish and dangerous. Money is no substitute for experience. I learned in a Piper Warrior and then rented an Archer for about 3 years. When deciding to buy my first airplane I chose a J. I could've afforded more airplane but I thought the J was the perfect step-up with my level of experience and flight time and to this day I have no regrets. Perhaps later I will step up to an Ovation and if so 300 hours in my J will make that transition much easier and more importantly, safer. Aviation is unforgiving so take the advice everyone is trying to give you and learn to be a better and safer pilot by slowing down and building hours in a less complex airplane; you'll thank us later. One last thing, someone on MS once said insurance is about risk. If you get an insurance quote on Rocket or Bravo that blows your socks off, this is cause for concern and alarm bells should be sounding. It's high for a reason and you're likely making a dangerous decision. 

Good luck and safe flying in whatever decision you make. 

Kevin

[glafaille]

Samurai-

The risks that you don't see right now in your airplane shopping experience are similar to the ones you don't yet see in your flying endeavors.  More about the purchasing risk in a moment.

The NTSB reports are filled with folks like yourself that came into a bit of money and didn't want to be bothered with flying something like a Cessna 172 for a year or two after getting their pilots license.

The Cessna 172 is one of the safest airplanes in general aviation, it's also one of the most popular.  Why fly a slow Cessna when you can fly a Cirrus, speedy RV6, or a Bonanza?  Because the C172 will cover your butt when you screw up!  It's a forgiving, slow airplane that will let you make mistakes and live to learn from them.  You can't get into a high speed spiral with it, it's nearly impossible to snap roll on a poorly executed base to final turn, it won't get high enough to fly over many mountains, and if the worst happens it crashes slow enough that you stand a good chance of surviving.  If you have to, you can land it in a parking lot, I once saw one parked at a rest stop along the interstate!  Someone made a bad decision but survived anyway by making a good decision.  The airplane allowed him to learn from his mistake.

Suppose you just received your PPL and are silly enough or unlucky enough to try to get home and you encounter unforcast weather like fog.  Would you be safer in a C172 or a Bonanza?  If you had to let down through the clouds, which plane would be most stable and which would give you the best chance of picking a good spot for a forced landing if you had to do one?  How about if it was night?

I've been looking for an older Mooney for 5 months now and have rejected most due to poor logbook record keeping or maintenance history.  Purchasing an aircraft can be a serious threat to your financial condition if you are unaware of the risks, just as flying can be a serious threat to your life if unaware of the risks.  Experience makes you aware of threats that are impossible to learn in a training environment.

Here is a recent Cirrus crash that happened during training that probably would not have happened in a C172.  http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/investigators-work-to-find-reason-for-navasota-plane-crash/article_0701eb8e-df70-11e5-ad85-cb98bbbbbd90.html

Ever hear of Thurmon Munsun?  Famous baseball player, learned to fly, bought a jet, game over.

We are not trying to discourage you, but warn you that you are at risk.  Be safe, take your time, have fun.

[jrwilson]

I'm going to go the other way...Samauri first said his dream plane is a Cessna 340, but realized that was too much plane, based on advice from others.  Maybe it isn't.  Everyone is saying he needs more time and experience before going to a Rocket.  That is true.  He will probably have 75 + hours before he starts plane shopping and he is going to need a type checkout/insurance requirements anyway.  Plus, from his posts, he likely will get a competent type instructor and do more training than is required.

If Samauri just goes for the twin, which might be a better fit for him anyway, he will definitely need to do extensive training...possibly in the plane he will be flying.  He would be required to get a multi rating, so that is quite a few hours in type, right there.  During that training, maybe he grabs an instrument too?  Great!  Does he have enough time then to fly safely?  Maybe...depends on him.  During that multi-rating/(Hopefully combined with an instrument rating) he could realistically get quite a bit of real world/cross country/weather experience that it might normally take hundreds of hours to acquire, if he trained smart.

In the end, weigh the risks, get the training, do what you want and don't kill anyone else in the process.  You actually seem like you're putting the time and effort and money into getting the right kind of training.  If you continued that course, and trained well and paid to get some real world experience, which I think you would, then you probably would be fine in a 340.   

[Samurai Husky]

I really do appreciate the warnings; I take flying extraordinarily serious more serious then i have ever taken anything i have ever done in my life. Maybe its coming off though posts that I have a invincibility complex, but i can assure you that is not the case at all. I am not looking to buy a plane so i can dart from point A to point B although it may have come off that way. I just think that its prudent to have the power 'if' needed. Most of the time i will be running at reduced rates just to save fuel anyway because i'm frugal, hence driving a volt. Could have bought a tesla, but 'what if'. I am a very conservative, low risk person, I find that i make good decisions based on facts and data and not much on the emotional side of things. I love check lists and even make my own. I didnt get to where i am today by gambling or excessive risk taking and i sure didnt work as hard i have to die in a plane crash tomorrow.  

I understand that the airplanes that i have suggested are complex; They wouldn't need a specialized rating if it was easy. I understand that what i have suggested seems a bit too accelerated, but I have said several time these are medium term goals. 

Maybe it would help if I explained better what my full goals are, because it get the impression that bits and pieces are being picked up here and there with out maybe seeing the big picture. 

I will most likely start soloing at the end of april. That is up to my instructor, not to me.

I plan on having my PPL sometime in June. Maybe a little later. Right now what has been delaying my progress has been weather and instructor schedule which has only allowed me to fly 1hr a week, which in my opinion is simply not enough as the time span between flying is too long. 

Once I PPL, I plan on starting day trips in the SR20 and will hopefully be able to check out other planes as well to test drive. The SR20 is renting out to me at $184/hr wet, so its not the most economical learning plane for building hours. 

Through the summer I plan on just visiting airports to get a better feel of airports outside the region. As stated, being in the Bay Area is very complex because we have 3 international airports (SFO,SJC and OAK) and then 5 Municipal Airports (KSQL,KPAO,Henry Reid, Hayward and moffit field); So not only is it a very crowded air space from just air traffic to and from those airports, but there are also a lot of controlled airspace's to look for while in flight. My instructor said this was the best place in the country to learn to fly, because if you can fly here, you can fly anywhere. I plan on visiting Yosemitie, Tahoe, Maybe go up to Eureka. Etc. I havnt really sat down and planned it out yet, once i get my PPL then I will get more serious about where to go. 

By end of summer i plan on having my 100 hours maybe more and will start looking for planes.

It may take months to find one, who knows, but im not going to stop flying in the mean time. 

IF i were to get end up with a complex. Then yes, I would get a CSI specifically for that plane and get my complex rating on that plane before even thinking about taking it anywhere out of the area. It sounds like what has most people afraid is going long distance, but in the near term the only long distance that i will probably attempt is Phoenix, which can be done at under 8k feet via palm springs. I think for my first attempt at any long distance flight like that, I would rent a Cirrus. It might not be comfortable, and i probably wont be able to take the dogs, but if something were to happen, I have a para shoot. Even if it means leaving early on a Saturday, landing, refuel and head right back home in time for dinner.

My next step would be to IFR; More then likely i would end up upgrading the Avionics if i were to get a Rocket. If its a Bravo or O2 then it already has it and i can start on that right away. I know getting a panel redone can take about 3 months or so and I am factoring that in as a buffer to build more time in a rental; I cant imagine not having trafficscope in the bay area. My god, even with the limited amount of time I have, having trafficscope was a god send because it was telling us where everyone was. 

Ok, say the plane is back now; and I start IFR training. Since you need 50hrs XC i should have that racked up in the cirrus before i start. From what I have read, its about a 7day class; Plus i would supplement that with some CSI time to ensure that i really know what i am doing. As recommended by people in other forums. For me, spending $900 on a 10hr check ride is more than worth it.

For me IFR is not to fly in rain, its really just to break through the marine layer here in the bay area. I have no interest in flying a single engine airplane through snow or ice or rain. I would rather wait it out than even attempt it; Maybe after 500hrs or more i might think about it, if its a small drizzle with light wind; But i have read way to many NTSB reports because pilots took off in bad weather. 

Ok, so now I have my IFR, I have done some XC (by FAA standards of 250nm from home); NOW i am ready to start thinking about some of these other destinations. From here i will see how things go; I really want to start flying for Pilots N Paws. One of my dogs is a rescue and I cant imagine her being put down because they ran out of space at a shelter. In order to fly for them, you need a plane with decent payload. Which probably puts me closer to a P210n then a Mooney, but again, we'll see.

Eventually 8 years give or take, i would like to end up in a 340a; but its too much plane right now. I see the Rocket as a good launching point since it uses the exact same engine as a 340a; As sad as it is to think about, 8yrs from now my pups wont be around anymore. So that might change my entire thought process.

The reason for some of sense of urgency isnt to just run out and start flying a Ferrari, Its because right now the economy is at a point where It makes sense to make a large purchase like this; Maybe i will buy a plane and it will just sit there for 6 months, or maybe i will lease it back to the flying club... I know it sounds like a waste, but we are getting very close to seeing steady interest rate hikes which will greatly increase the cost of plane acquisition. I would rather buy and sit on a investment then to get priced out of one. 

--------------

Outside of this;

The Acclaim is out of my price range. I need to stay under 300k for the perfect plane, under 150k for a not so perfect plane. 

Also, I am sorry if it sounded like i came off as bragging with my financial situation. That was not my intention, the intention was to show that i could afford to fly the plane i was talking about and afford to fly it enough to build experience. The Twin forums were much more interested in knowing my financial situation in order to gauge weather i could even think about owning one. My intention was not to insult anyone or come off as if i were bragging. I actually come from very meager means, so right now even the thought of buying a plane is hard to wrap my head around.

Hope this helps. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

"I'm going to go the other way...Samauri first said his dream plane is a Cessna 340, but realized that was too much plane, based on advice from others.  Maybe it isn't.  Everyone is saying he needs more time and experience before going to a Rocket.  That is true.  He will probably have 75 + hours before he starts plane shopping and he is going to need a type checkout/insurance requirements anyway.  Plus, from his posts, he likely will get a competent type instructor and do more training than is required."

;_; finally someone that heard me.... Dont worry i will protect you from the wolves then they come for you!

But all silliness aside, I have spend maybe 100 hours or so trying to justify getting a twin right now; And as much as the idea appeals to me, I just think its not a smart decision right now. I met with about 4 different members for lunch in the other forums, each one wasnt directly trying to talk me out of it, but each one had stories to tell as to why nows not the time. I also came the realization that owning a twin, i could only fly about 80 hours a year, and that was stretching my finances. With a single, the costs basically are slashed in half, so i could potentially fly 200hrs or more a year. 

I know i just posted this above. But i see a complex as a good stepping stone. Is it a big step up from a Cirrus? Yes, but its a step in the right direction. What makes the rocket so interesting is that it has the same exact engine as a 340A; So it gives me insight into future 340A ownership from a maintenance/mechanic point of view. 

Above I outlined what my time line looked like; Let me outline WHY i have been so set on the Rocket.

In no particular order:

1. Its a complex, which will earn me experience towards a twin, after all a twin is a complex X2

2. It uses the same engine as a 340a and so will help me build mechanical understanding.

3. I can make it from the bay area to PHX in 3 hours. Not that i will always be in that much of a hurry, but its nice to know that if i want to get back, its not an all day adventure like it currently is driving there (11 hours, 8 years of driving 11 hours each way with 2 dogs....of course im excited about doing an alternative!)

4. The running costs are not that bad when compared to other single engine planes; 16-17gph@210knt? means maybe i use 60-70g to get to phx? @$350 in fuel i will be much more willing to go down more often than had i been in something like a twin that would cost more then twice that

5. If/when i decide to do a long trip like to Chicago, i can make the trip in about 8 hours of flight time, vs flying something slower where i might end up having to stop for the night.

6. It has a larger useful load; 1130 vs 880

7. Cost: <140k which puts it in the range where if it doesn't have glass, i can redo the panel. 

8. When i get more experience, I can get up to the mid teens in 20mins, vs something like the p210n which would take about a hour. Which allows for getting over weather, and getting a boost from prevailing winds when going east. 

9. Will do more than 900nm some list 1100nm with the long range tanks of 108g.

some cons:

1. I do want to run for Pilots and Paws, from what i can tell, its not a very good plane for that because of loading animals into the back area. I would definatly need to see if the back seats can be removed. 

2. Because its a shorter body, its slightly less stable with slightly less room inside.

3. No glass, I would need to add any glass, which i would do; which means cost, time and debug. 

 

[PTK]

"internet troll":  "...someone posting extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum,chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion often for their own amusement..."

[Guest Mike261]

9 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

I dont know how to respond to some of your statements because they are coming from a place that is obviously deeper then i am aware of. I am deeply sorry for the loss this board has suffered, it must have been recently and very difficult because i can see the choice of word you are using. But i think you missed some of the statements I made in previous posts, because Im being accused of not listening despite my earlier posts.

If you still think i am missing something and want to get through to me your going to have to spell it out in a very technical manor. Just saying 'you dont know what your getting your self into so, stop' isnt going to work, if anything its probably having the opposite effect. I had already spelled out very clearly how much flying meant to me, so your statements about money and motivation that i am simply doing this for my dogs or that simply throwing money at this is very insulting.  I think you also accused me earlier of holding information back, which to me was also a bit off since i have been nothing but open and honest through this whole thread.

What you say is slow down. But what does that mean? What do you think I am about to do that you seem to think i am getting in over my head? I have some people saying the plane i am learning on is the same class; So what is it that i am missing? Im already cruising at 125-140kts; whats another 50? You seem to think that the extra 50 makes a big difference, but you havent really said what that 50 means in technical terms. i have full faith that my instructor and flying club members will tell me how I am progressing. If they say i'm not ready, then I'm not ready, but at least their opinions will be based on actual data instead of perception based on some forum posts.

IDK, seems like people think im going to show up next week and say 'guess what, i own a plane'; When i have stated several times that's not my intention. I plan on having at least 75-100hrs before i seriously start looking at planes. Maybe thats not enough, or maybe its just enough. I wont know until i get there but let me at least get there before we start judging what i can and cant do. Though depending on weather, i plan on being there before the Fall rain starts. 

Right now its all window shopping so that I am prepared. Once I find a model of a plane or a few models that i like, I plan on finding a CSI to check them out (or maybe getting a forum member to help me out, since i wont have enough time to be able to rent them on my own); Just to see if i like the thing; If i didnt fly the Cirrus, i wouldn't have know how much i didnt like the left stick. Maybe i will fly a mooney and feel like the ground clearance is too low, or that its too hard to land as i have read at other websites. Maybe i will still end up in a p210; Who knows?

Eventually if i do settle on a specific plane; then there is the whole pre-buy, inspection etc. That may or may not work out and end up right back at the drawing board; If that plane happens to be a complex, then yes, I plan on hiring a CSI to train me in that specific plane.

Sure, i have posted some links to planes for sale today and maybe they wont be there later; what I am here for is information. Every plane and every pilot is different and right now i get the feeling i am being compared to someone i dont even know.

 

 

Are you sweating the check ride yet? I know i did when i was getting close. recited the test pilots prayer many times before it..."dear god, don,t let me #@ck this up."

How many hours are you going to have on the day of your check ride? the FAA minimum? Probably not, likely 65 or more. Ten hours later at 75 to 100 you are going to start shopping for a high performance airplane? Lets talk about it in technical terms...the check ride is going to be overwhelming, you need your A game and you have to perform every tested element without help. Your bucket is full, in fact your bucket is still full as a freshly minted pilot. Now add 50 knots. Everything happens in 2/3rds the time you are accustomed to, yet your bucket is full. You also have retractable gear to worry about, slowing down a slippery airplane and you need more precise airspeed control on landing. That pesky crosswind from base to final while you're struggling to slow the airplane down is now a lot more dangerous than you thought, but your bucket is full...will you notice that you are over banked and uncoordinated? what about an unforeseen emergency? Is there room in your bucket for that? Are you still checking for the next available landing spot in cruise, or are you too busy with ATC and housekeeping now that your'e zipping along 50 knots faster. 

I'm not even considering your background, or your personality, or your ability. Just your inexperience. All airplanes can bite you hard, the faster and more complex they are the quicker they bite.

Contrary to some opinions, flying small airplanes carries a sizable risk factor. A pilots first concern is the safety of the flight...risk mitigation is your job as a pilot.

jumping right in as you may do does nothing to mitigate risk, it increases it, statistics back this up. The certificate isn't a golden ticket that makes you able to fly anything. Take small steps...always mitigate risk. The slow down advice that you didn't appreciate is the best flying lesson your'e ever going to get.

Oh...and ill say it...you'll be in over your head.

 

Mike

[Samurai Husky]

I plan on not taking the check ride until i am comfortable with the plane and flying. If its 65 its 65, if its 150, then its 150. My goal isnt to pass a test and then learn on the 'fly', that just sounds stupid (no offence); I know thats what a lot of people do; there was a person in the flight club that had exactly 6 weeks between jobs and forced through his PPL; He passed, but i dont think i would want to fly with him.

As i stated before, nothing is set in stone; Even if i get my PPL and find a plane on Day 1 (somehow); I still plan on getting CFI help; Everything you mention in your post are all things your not going to experience until you get into a high performance complex, so putting time in a 172 isnt going to make me any more prepared. What will make me a safe pilot is getting a CFI to fly with me until i feel comfortable flying it. Maybe thats 10 hours, maybe thats 40 hours. who knows; What i have been saying for a while now is that I am prepared to pay for help. 

If i am paying for help then why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Hell, maybe i will rent one with a CFI and hate it more then the Cirrus and end up in a Cessna. I have just been laying out my case. 

@glafaille

Sorry i missed your post while writing the 2 super long posts. I didnt mean to ignore you. Its because it can take a very long time to find a plane that i am looking now. I have the expectations that most planes i will look at will not be worth it. The twin forums taught me that you need to use a 3rd part pre buy inspection and not just take the guys mechanics word. From what i understand corrosion is one of the most often overlooked item; followed by cylinder damage, landing gear rigging etc. 

Yes, a 172 is a more forgiving aircraft; Very low stall speeds; flys low and slow and is often beaten to death before it gives the owner a hiccup. During my training i asked if we could do landings in both the Cirrus and the 172 as there is a 172 available for training as well. I chose the Cirrus because the 172 rents at a higher rate and my instructor is a Cirrus expert. 

For fog, Im not allowed to land in class D with fog as a VFR pilot; I have to turn around and land somewhere else and possibly spend the night in the plane. I've done it in a car at a rest stop while being trapped in a unexpected snow storm with out chains, so if i have to do it in a plane to be safe then that's just the responsibility of being a pilot. In flying there is no accidentally flying into bad conditions, you consciously fly into them because you have out weighed your responsibility with connivance, making a 180 is always an option.

 

[xrs135]

29 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

...so putting time in a 172 isnt going to make me any more prepared.

That's where you are wrong. You'd be surprised what a few hundred hours or more in a 172 can teach a newly minted pilot. I think what's slightly disconcerting is that you are so eager to skip this step, and jump right into a pretty high performance aircraft. I understand you have been training in an SR-20... but that's doesn't mean you couldn't learn A LOT by slowing it down and flying around in a C172 or even a C150!  You must build a solid foundation, and that can be done in much less of an aircraft that you are looking into.

Edited March 29, 2016 by xrs135

[Guest Mike261]

17 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

I plan on not taking the check ride until i am comfortable with the plane and flying. If its 65 its 65, if its 150, then its 150. My goal isnt to pass a test and then learn on the 'fly', that just sounds stupid (no offence); I know thats what a lot of people do; there was a person in the flight club that had exactly 6 weeks between jobs and forced through his PPL; He passed, but i dont think i would want to fly with him.

As i stated before, nothing is set in stone; Even if i get my PPL and find a plane on Day 1 (somehow); I still plan on getting CFI help; Everything you mention in your post are all things your not going to experience until you get into a high performance complex, so putting time in a 172 isnt going to make me any more prepared. What will make me a safe pilot is getting a CFI to fly with me until i feel comfortable flying it. Maybe thats 10 hours, maybe thats 40 hours. who knows; What i have been saying for a while now is that I am prepared to pay for help. 

If i am paying for help then why is everyone making such a big deal about this? Hell, maybe i will rent one with a CFI and hate it more then the Cirrus and end up in a Cessna. I have just been laying out my case. 

@glafaille

 

 

In the end its your call...

but i have to disagree...plodding around in the 172 is great first step. This is where you learn that you are now the pilot in command. in the 172 you can learn how to fly almost reflexively, at a slower pace and in a more forgiving airplane. When you can wear the cessna like a second skin, you have gone from a rote understanding of stick and rudder flying to really understanding the airplane, you will be comfortable, bored and ready to step up.

I am an instructor. I have had students buy fancy fast airplanes and then ask me to be babysitter to get them up to speed, but i didn't have the time to be someones first officer every time they wanted to make a trip. This situation is tiresome for the owner and the CFI and gets old in a hurry. there is a lot of temptation there to break your conventions and go off and fly, it is your airplane after all. Be careful and stick to the program if this is the route you want to go.

think about what you said up top...he passed, but i don't think i would want to fly with him. He met the minimum standards, just like you will when you pass. Now...put him in a rocket.

It appears you have already developed some aviation judgement, just don't forget to turn it in on yourself.

Know your limitations, and adhere to them. (best advise i ever got)

 

Mike

[Samurai Husky]

I didn't say i wouldn't fly one; I said i wouldn't buy one. See the previous post about using the 172 for landing practice. In order to make a 172 worth buying it would have to be cheap and be full glass so that i could lease it back to the flying club and make money back on it because it wouldn't be a keeper plane.

My instructor also said the opposite, he said learning in a Cirrus is more challenging and will take longer to learn, but will teach you better skills because its less forgiving. He said the Cessna was too forgiving and makes for poor techniques, but left it up to me.

Besides, when i look at our flying club, all the 172's are 180hp, which has a Va of 102; where the Cirrus is 131. Maybe 29kts makes a difference, but it doesn't seem like much. 

 

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

12 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

I dont know how to respond to some of your statements because they are coming from a place that is obviously deeper then i am aware of. I am deeply sorry for the loss this board has suffered, it must have been recently and very difficult because i can see the choice of word you are using. But i think you missed some of the statements I made in previous posts, because Im being accused of not listening despite my earlier posts.

If you still think i am missing something and want to get through to me your going to have to spell it out in a very technical manor. Just saying 'you dont know what your getting your self into so, stop' isnt going to work, if anything its probably having the opposite effect. I had already spelled out very clearly how much flying meant to me, so your statements about money and motivation that i am simply doing this for my dogs or that simply throwing money at this is very insulting.  I think you also accused me earlier of holding information back, which to me was also a bit off since i have been nothing but open and honest through this whole thread.

What you say is slow down. But what does that mean? What do you think I am about to do that you seem to think i am getting in over my head? I have some people saying the plane i am learning on is the same class; So what is it that i am missing? Im already cruising at 125-140kts; whats another 50? You seem to think that the extra 50 makes a big difference, but you havent really said what that 50 means in technical terms. i have full faith that my instructor and flying club members will tell me how I am progressing. If they say i'm not ready, then I'm not ready, but at least their opinions will be based on actual data instead of perception based on some forum posts.

IDK, seems like people think im going to show up next week and say 'guess what, i own a plane'; When i have stated several times that's not my intention. I plan on having at least 75-100hrs before i seriously start looking at planes. Maybe thats not enough, or maybe its just enough. I wont know until i get there but let me at least get there before we start judging what i can and cant do. Though depending on weather, i plan on being there before the Fall rain starts. 

Right now its all window shopping so that I am prepared. Once I find a model of a plane or a few models that i like, I plan on finding a CSI to check them out (or maybe getting a forum member to help me out, since i wont have enough time to be able to rent them on my own); Just to see if i like the thing; If i didnt fly the Cirrus, i wouldn't have know how much i didnt like the left stick. Maybe i will fly a mooney and feel like the ground clearance is too low, or that its too hard to land as i have read at other websites. Maybe i will still end up in a p210; Who knows?

Eventually if i do settle on a specific plane; then there is the whole pre-buy, inspection etc. That may or may not work out and end up right back at the drawing board; If that plane happens to be a complex, then yes, I plan on hiring a CSI to train me in that specific plane.

Sure, i have posted some links to planes for sale today and maybe they wont be there later; what I am here for is information. Every plane and every pilot is different and right now i get the feeling i am being compared to someone i dont even know.

 

 

First of all, I don;t see a problem with learning how to fly in a high performance airplane. A friend of mine bought a 182 and learned to fly in that. Another friend had a son who learned how to fly in that friend's airplane - a Cessna 210. There are only two real downsides - it will take much longer and the airplane will be much less forgiving of any mistake.

But I'm commenting mostly because of your desire to have information that is simply not technical put in technical terms.  Best example is that 50 KT differential. I've seen pilots with a lot of experience get messed up when transitioning to an airplane only 10 KTs faster. It's not about the technicality of 50 KTS, it is about the natural and trained abilities of human beings. 

If you take away the very stupid things pilots do, like running our of gas, I would have to say that most accidents occur because the pilot is behind the airplane. Sure, when you up at 8,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 feet, it doesn't matter much. But change that to 2,000-4,000 in a busy terminal area where you need to prepare for a landing or mix with other traffic in a high density area and, without training and experience, thinking and staying ahead is not something that comes naturally to most people.

Those of us who are instructors see it every single day. Students who are on downwind and can't even manage to think 15 seconds ahead to what the will do once abeam the touchdown zone. Instrument pilots during an IPC who wait until the very last minute to brief or set up for an approach and get completely flummoxed when asked to change to a different approach. Hundreds of other examples.

Now you might be they superguy - the natural pilot who comes to aviation without  the human frailties that affect most human beings. i kinda doubt it, but if you are, more power to you. After all, if you are, you hardly need the advice of mere mortals.

[Guest Mike261]

I quoted you directly. why don't you refer to your own post which I graciously cut and pasted into my reply. your reply is a non starter.

you in fact said " putting time in a 172 isn't going to make me any more prepared" or something to that nature.

I disagreed, explained why.

we are now off on a tangent.

and since we are..." the Cessna is too forgiving and makes for poor techniques" This is patently absurd. Practically every airline pilot out there started in 172 or something like it.

poor technique, in any endeavor is the fault of the teacher, or the student or a lack of training entirely.

and with that, i am done.

good luck, i hope you figure out a safe route.

mike