Squawks So Far...

[Brian Scranton]

So, I've been able to fly my new-to-me M20F about 10 hours since I got her last week. What a dream. TIGHT controls. Nowhere near as hard to land as all the reading would suggest--just fly 80mph abeam your spot...and honestly, I am blown away by how much fun she is to fly. A couple questions:

My MP gauge lags any change in throttle setting by 5 seconds-ish. The engine gets there--you can hear it, so I am not worried that I am not making power. Just wondering if anyone has experienced this. Spent gauge? 

My Century III tracks heading, nav and gps--plus the pitch wheel works...however, the Alt Hold is INOP. I set it--it holds for 2 mins, then the trim wheel starts moving in one direction or the other. Thought maybe it was the tight controls so lubed those to no avail. Maybe the altitude box isn't talking to the pitch servo? Maybe a blue connector needs to be cleaned? I dunno. 

She has a slight but noticeable right turn tendency in cruise--so, I just need my A&P to mess with that. 

I make 23.5'' on take off (KMTJ=5751') so my climb rate out of the airport is lame. Maybe 300 fpm at 110mph...the RAYJAY makes all the difference!!! I can bump that up to 27 on take off and problem solved! 600fpm at 110. Being used to a 230hp in my 182, I was scratching my head--then realized, you're not in Kansas anymore. 

Anyway, I've been flying the hell out of her to learn all the characteristics. Full stall series. Landing with no through full flaps. Cross winds. Small runways. Mega runways. Varied approach angles. In a word: AWESOME. 

Go Team,

Brian

 

 

[MB65E]

Glad you dig it Brian. There is a refrance line off the number 4 cyl. (Back right) there should be a small hole in the line around the back side of the cylinder. Many times the adel clamp blocks the hole. I would flush the line with mineral spirits from the gauge to the engine. Might check the back side of the guage for debris. 

Radio Shack has stuff called Deoxit Gold 5. Pull your connectors, and spray them down. ( It's not harmful like some other contact cleaners. I have sprayed expensive FADEC harnesses with it) this should clean it up if it can be. 

If not, Autopilots central is about the best repair facility in the country. 

Enjoy!

-Matt

[Browncbr1]

congratulations!  Yes, they are awesome..  I recommend you fly the pattern a little faster...  if you always fly like that, sooner or later, you will turn base carrying a gross load and will tip stall the wing, game over...   I fly the pattern 90-100 and slow down to 85-90 on final, 80-85 over the numbers...  do not get low and slow... 

Regarding your MAP gauge lag, check the aluminum vacuum line fittings... mine recently broke on the small line where it goes into the reducer fitting that goes to the larger lines...  It was easily re-flaired for a tight fitting.

Years of vibration will break aluminum eventually

[DonMuncy]

1 hour ago, Brian Scranton said:

My MP gauge lags any change in throttle setting by 5 seconds-ish. The engine gets there--you can hear it, so I am not worried that I am not making power. Just wondering if anyone has experienced this. Spent gauge? 

Brian

 

 

I think this is the turbo "bootstrapping". You add a little MP, the engine puts out a little more exhaust pressure, the turbo picks up a little speed and pushes up the MP. Same thing on reducing MP.

[Brian Scranton]

Thanks guys--i'll take a look at your suggestions. Don, the turbo is off when this happens so it's not bootstrapping. And the gauge reads correctly, it just takes 3 seconds to catch up to my power adjustment. 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

The guage's line has the ability to collect the blue goo that 100LL leaves behind when it evaporates.  The tiny calibrated leak hole usually will keep the gauge clean.  But the end connected to the cylinder can get gooey.

real easy to check.  Not too hard to clean. Easy to break at the calibrated hole.

Overall, this is an important piece of information. Especially in a new to you plane.

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

She has a slight but noticeable right turn tendency in cruise--so, I just need my A&P to mess with that. 

 

IF you have the Brittan PC system there is a roll control on the Turn Cordinator

[neilpilot]

7 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

She has a slight but noticeable right turn tendency in cruise--so, I just need my A&P to mess with that. 

Brian,

 

Please suggest to your A&P make only extremely slight adjustments to the control surface, using finger pressure only and not a tool.  It's very easy to make things worse if too much adjustment is made.

[irishpilot]

Make sure you are coordinated prior to adjusting any roll. Many times, if your rudder trim is a half-ball out, it will cause a turn.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, neilpilot said:

Brian,

 

Please suggest to your A&P make only extremely slight adjustments to the control surface, using finger pressure only and not a tool.  It's very easy to make things worse if too much adjustment is made.

You might want to make sure it is rigged properly prior to making any slight aileron adjustments as Neil says.

[Brian Scranton]

All good suggestions! Proper turn coordination? Now there's a novel idea--I'll ask my A&P about it

[1964-M20E]

Rigging is not hard to do but you do need the travel boards.  Elevator rigging is the most intense.

Checking the rigging does not take long with the travel boards.

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

On March 7, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Browncbr1 said:

congratulations!  Yes, they are awesome..  I recommend you fly the pattern a little faster...  if you always fly like that, sooner or later, you will turn base carrying a gross load and will tip stall the wing, game over...   I fly the pattern 90-100 and slow down to 85-90 on final, 80-85 over the numbers...  do not get low and slow... 

Regarding your MAP gauge lag, check the aluminum vacuum line fittings... mine recently broke on the small line where it goes into the reducer fitting that goes to the larger lines...  It was easily re-flaired for a tight fitting.

Years of vibration will break aluminum eventually

80-85MPH IS TOO Fast over the numbers.  Regardless of weight.  SLOW DOWN.  You should have power OUT when runway is made and just let it come down.  If you are coming down and over numbers you are NOT going to stall the plane.  More importantly you want to use less runway, less brakes, less speed means safer.  You will float, float, float in the summer with that speed over the runway.  WHY?  Practice using LESS speed.  You will still have plenty of energy for round-out and flare.  If stall horn is NOT on at/during flare you are flying it on to fast.

[steingar]

On March 7, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Browncbr1 said:

congratulations!  Yes, they are awesome..  I recommend you fly the pattern a little faster...  if you always fly like that, sooner or later, you will turn base carrying a gross load and will tip stall the wing, game over...   I fly the pattern 90-100 and slow down to 85-90 on final, 80-85 over the numbers...  do not get low and slow... 

The book on my M20C says it stalls at 57mph dirty.  I must second the other poster's comments.  You really don't need that kind of speed in the pattern.  The downwind velocity quoted is nearly 2Vstol, at least for my aircraft.  I truly don't know the degree to which they vary.

I dislike telling anyone how to fly their own airplane, especially since most folks here are likely better pilots than I.  But I am fairly certain that an airplane with a wing anything like mine will float quite a ways at those speeds. Might be difficult to fit it into a tight space at need.

Of course, one could run into trouble at lower speeds in uncoordinated flight, but I am certain no one here does that...

[bonal]

There is plenty of concern about stall spin on the base final turn as for me I prefer to carry more speed through this turn 90mph and never seem to have trouble getting my speed to be under 80 as I cross the threshold. I am sure it will draw some criticism but I don't land on the stall horn I just hold it off and it slides right onto the mains. When I was working on getting to the stall I made my worst landings. 

[Guest]

If the stall horn is not coming on, you may be too fast, or, it may be broken, or, your ANR head set is really good, or, you're deaf.

Don't confuse stall horn for gear warning horn.

Clarence

[Hank]

18 minutes ago, bonal said:

There is plenty of concern about stall spin on the base final turn as for me I prefer to carry more speed through this turn 90mph and never seem to have trouble getting my speed to be under 80 as I cross the threshold. I am sure it will draw some criticism but I don't land on the stall horn I just hold it off and it slides right onto the mains. When I was working on getting to the stall I made my worst landings. 

You mean your landings aren't like this? Roll wings level in final at 85 mph, level off briefly to clear the trees, throttle to idle and touch down at the stall horn?

 

[DXB]

28 minutes ago, bonal said:

There is plenty of concern about stall spin on the base final turn as for me I prefer to carry more speed through this turn 90mph and never seem to have trouble getting my speed to be under 80 as I cross the threshold. I am sure it will draw some criticism but I don't land on the stall horn I just hold it off and it slides right onto the mains. When I was working on getting to the stall I made my worst landings. 

I hear the stall horn maybe 1/5 of the time, and these are not necessarily my best (most controlled-feeling) landings - I  suspect the reason is that I get behind on adding back pressure in the flare and add it too firmly to compensate right before the mains touch- thus stalling at faster than Vso and landing faster than necessary.  It's good to hear the stall horn if back pressure is applied smoothly to offset the sink and pull off as much speed as possible. But I think hearing it should not be the primary focus, or be the hallmark of a good landing.

[Cyril Gibb]

46 minutes ago, Hank said:

You mean your landings aren't like this? Roll wings level in final at 85 mph, level off briefly to clear the trees, throttle to idle and touch down at the stall horn?

We each have our preferences based on soft field, short field, obstructions or whatever, so this isn't a criticism of the video, merely a different perspective.

If I were coming into that field, those trees look far too solid (to me) to depend on a quick shot of throttle.  There's no place to bail to if there was an engine burp.  I'd be coming in at a much steeper angle throttled right back with no need to add power to get to the threshold.  And probably do a quick slip to scrub extra speed and altitude if needed.

[Hank]

Yeah, that wasn't my best approach, but it's the one I have filmed. I had to raise my limit from 650 msl over the trees to 700 msl over the trees (field elevation is 567 msl). When done right, descent is smooth and uninterrupted. But no two are alike . . .  The landing, on the other hand, once past the trees, is textbook. Three stripes is 600' of the 3000' runway, and the stall horn was buzzing just before the tires chirped.

[Browncbr1]

22 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

80-85MPH IS TOO Fast over the numbers.  Regardless of weight.  SLOW DOWN.  You should have power OUT when runway is made and just let it come down.  If you are coming down and over numbers you are NOT going to stall the plane.  More importantly you want to use less runway, less brakes, less speed means safer.  You will float, float, float in the summer with that speed over the runway.  WHY?  Practice using LESS speed.  You will still have plenty of energy for round-out and flare.  If stall horn is NOT on at/during flare you are flying it on to fast.

I fly an F and this suits me.  I fly into runways between 3500 and 9000ft with unforgiving terrain all around. I do not want to come up short, low and slow ...  There simply is no reaso to fly so slow and behind the power curve.   Have you ever done a go around at 70mph gear out and full flaps?    Yes, slow down to 1.2-1.3 for short grass strips, but sooner or later flying that slow in the pattern will bite you when you are hit with a down wind gust and full gross as you turn base.   Be safe, there is no reason to fly that slow.  80-85 over the numbers means touching the wheels around 70.  (take off flaps).    A little slower full flaps.  (F model, so take into account for slower flying models)   But remember our wings quit flying abruptly.

 

I fear that flying too slow is what got our late Canadian friend and his recovering son.  I recall this is what also got the meridian at OSH last year.   Guys, there is no reason to fly so slow as long as you don't let your wheels touch at over 75mph.  (F).    Just my humble opinion on how to keep yourself and pax safe.  

[steingar]

I have to agree, the stall horn is not the end-all of a good landing.  To me a good landing is done within 1500 feet of runway with a smooth touchdown.  If you can do that you have my vote no matter how you accomplish it.

[bonal]

16 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If the stall horn is not coming on, you may be too fast, or, it may be broken, or, your ANR head set is really good, or, you're deaf.

Don't confuse stall horn for gear warning horn.

Clarence

Stall horn works fine gear horn as well and no confusion on the two. Head set not that good and my hearing is better than it should be considering all the abuse. Even during my C150 days I never landed on the stall horn when I worked on getting to this stall horn in my C my landings became very inconsistent. Anyway, I come in over the numbers at 75 but that changes depending on conditions I don't bounce or float and ever since I had worst landing ever (see thread) and have gone back to what works for me my landings have been very consistent and good. I have also begun rating each landing in my log book to keep track. And as I indicated I prefer to have more energy in the base to final 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Again, 80-85MPH OVER THE NUMBERS is too fast.  You all defend that all you want.  You fly how YOU want.  I said my piece.  

79,78,77,76,75,74,73,72,71,70,69,68,67,66,65.....obstacles showmophsticles.  Who said drag it in?  Not me.

TOO FAST.

[Andy95W]

 

On March 6, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Browncbr1 said:

  I recommend you fly the pattern a little faster...  if you always fly like that, sooner or later, you will turn base carrying a gross load and will tip stall the wing, game over...   I fly the pattern 90-100 and slow down to 85-90 on final, 80-85 over the numbers...  do not get low and slow... 

20 years ago, when I owned my first Mooney, that is exactly how I used to fly it.  I also had a 5000' long runway so it didn't matter.  I have to admit now, in retrospect, I was probably a little afraid of my airplane.

Now I fly out of an airport with less than 2000' landing distance available X 40' wide.  If I came in over the numbers at 80-85 I would be off the end into a swamp.  A friend of mine flies an Ovation in and out of this same airport, and I guarantee he wasn't doing 80-85 over the numbers, so F model versus C model differences also do not apply.

Mooneys fly very nicely by the numbers: 1.3Vso on final, slowing to 1.1-1.2Vso over the numbers.  And no, you won't "tip stall the wing" (whatever that is).  Or go to a 5000' long runway where sloppy airspeed control doesn't matter.

Check out the displaced thresholds!