How much ice?

[Cruiser]

The only reliable indication for ice accumulation is loss of airspeed. 

At the first sign of ice you, the PIC, need to take appropriate action.

A loss of 10 KIAS should have every bell and whistle in you head going off. Your brain should be saying get out of there.

There is absolutely no way to 'plan' for how much ice the plane can carry. 

[Will W]

I teach icing at MAPA Safety Foundation courses.

Please reference:

Forecast Icing Prducts

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/icingnav

Also, look at the very awesome tool of the Flight Path Tool

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/fptapplication

The best way to get to know them is to play with them and practice simulated routes you would go on. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[FlyDave]

8 minutes ago, dimondan said:

I teach icing at MAPA Safety Foundation courses.

Please reference:

Forecast Icing Prducts

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/icingnav

Also, look at the very awesome tool of the Flight Path Tool

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/fptapplication

The best way to get to know them is to play with them and practice simulated routes you would go on. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

Dan,

Can you share your icing curriculum with us?

Thanks,

Dave

[chrisk]

11 hours ago, M20F said:

 

Lastly there  is the physical damage ice can do to the plane.  Many pay a couple $100 to dynamically balance their propellers and just a small amount of weight makes that happen.  Now imagine what happens when one blade as 2lbs of ice and the other has 5lbs of ice and what kind of stress that puts on the motor or what happens when the 2lbs flies off and the 5lbs stays.  

Having had ice on the prop of a 172, I can tell you it feels like the plane will shake itself to bits.   When that happens, you have little choice but to reduce the prop speed/power, which really sucks if you're loaded up with extra weight due to having ice on the airframe.  Fortunately, I've not gotten any ice on my prop on my 231. (and hope to keep it that way)

I'm sure someone must have mentioned it here, but one of the big dangers with ice on the airframe is a tail stall.  The thinner the object, the more ice it accumulates.   I'd expect the Mooney tail to load up easily. 

 

http://www.ifr-magazine.com/issues/1_39/features/Ice-and-Tail-Stalls_478-1.html

[N201MKTurbo]

Actually, my experience is that the first 1/8 inch of rime makes the plane go faster. I saw it time after time. This was on my F, I haven't had much ice on my J. I never lost ice asymmetrically on the prop, just lucky I guess, but I have had one wing shed all its ice before the other one. It will get your attention.

As far as the weight of the ice, that is a old wives tail. I read once that a severely iced small plane is unlikely to have more then about 50 Lbs. of ice. far less then another body in the plane.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, Cruiser said:

The only reliable indication for ice accumulation is loss of airspeed. 

At the first sign of ice you, the PIC, need to take appropriate action.

A loss of 10 KIAS should have every bell and whistle in you head going off. Your brain should be saying get out of there.

There is absolutely no way to 'plan' for how much ice the plane can carry. 

The best way to tell if you have ice is to look out the window. I have found that ice forms on the windshield at about the same time it forms on the wings. In my F the first place ice would form was on the OAT thermometer, unfortunately my J doesn't have one. Another good reason to carry a flashlight at night is to shine on the wings to see if you are getting some ice.

[Bob - S50]

10 hours ago, dimondan said:

I teach icing at MAPA Safety Foundation courses.

Please reference:

Forecast Icing Prducts

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/icing/icingnav

Also, look at the very awesome tool of the Flight Path Tool

http://www.aviationweather.gov/adds/fptapplication

The best way to get to know them is to play with them and practice simulated routes you would go on. If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

I actually already have the first one bookmarked.

[carusoam]

For Ice identification, some planes strategically paint a dark color on a section of the leading edge.  Mine came that way...

An all white surface is more challenging to see the ice.

Best regards,

-a-

[PaulB]

 

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

For Ice identification, some planes strategically paint a dark color on a section of the leading edge.  Mine came that way...

An all white surface is more challenging to see the ice.

Best regards,

-a-

I was thinking about putting a small piece of black electrical tape on the leading edge to make it more visible.  Might go ahead and do this just in case.

 

This topic is very relevant to me.  I scrubbed my flight back home from christmas due to concerns over icing.  Ceiling was 800 ft and ground was freezing.  Tops were around 5-6k and I'm not FIKI.  I waited it out as much as I could but ended up having to rent a car and endure the 6 hour ride home.

Those of you with non-FIKI TKS and FIKI TKS, how do you approach flight planning differently?  Will you still launch into areas where there's an AIRMET or possible icing?  To me planning from a non icing equipped plane is very simple: temps below 2 and visible moisture and I'm not going.  When I eventually upgrade to something with a turbocharger and TKS I wonder how that will change.

[Ratherbflying]

1 hour ago, PaulB said:

 

I was thinking about putting a small piece of black electrical tape on the leading edge to make it more visible.  

 

Most important to place that black tape on the horizontal stab. It's pretty easy to see the ice accumulation on the wing... Almost impossible to see it back on the tail.

[Guest]

I thought the best place for ice was in a glass with alcohol.

Clarence

[Ratherbflying]

44 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I thought the best place for ice was in a glass with alcohol.

Clarence

I'll drink to that.

[Guest]

I hope this isn't thread creep!

Clarence

[kmyfm20s]

I thought the TKS system spec out Vodka for the fluid?

[PaulB]

2 hours ago, Ratherbflying said:

Most important to place that black tape on the horizontal stab. It's pretty easy to see the ice accumulation on the wing... Almost impossible to see it back on the tail.

that's a good thought.  I'll do both.  Electrical tape is cheap.

[Danb]

A lot has been written lately regarding ice in the rear leading to the tail stalling, this seems to be quite a challenge firstly determining if the tail had stalled and secondly  being proficient to make the adverse recovery. This brings to mind the tradgety last week in Canada. Did freezing rain cause the tail to stall along with adverse recovery techniques. A situation I pray to never get in. Any type of airframe stall could easily occur with ice accumulation. Just one more reason to stay dry in freezing temps.

[N33GG]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I hope this isn't thread creep!

Clarence

Does anybody have a video for sale that explains flying in icing conditions?

Just kidding.

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, PaulB said:

....Those of you with non-FIKI TKS and FIKI TKS, how do you approach flight planning differently?  Will you still launch into areas where there's an AIRMET or possible icing?  To me planning from a non icing equipped plane is very simple: temps below 2 and visible moisture and I'm not going.....

True -- FIKI equipment does make flight planning more complex.  FIKI gear is not a panacea.  Things I consider before going aloft in my single engine FIKI plane include these:

I find the ADDS icing product is valuable: In past 4 years I've found whenever I picked up ice it had been on their prediction.  (The reverse, not always). If the ice is shown over wide range of altitudes, or depicted as extensive along the route, that's more significant to me than ice predicted over a narrow vertical range. A high probability of light ice is less concern to me than low probability of heavy ice.  Likewise ice well above or below my cruising altitude is less concerning.  Probable SLD areas I've avoided on general assumption that boots or TKS is no match for that threat.  Freezing level below the MEA is cautionary and freezing level extending down to the ground is another risk factor I consider.  Cloud tops below cruising altitude is a plus, and skew-T diagrams and pireps give evidence of clear air, or lack.  Very cold temps are generally signs of lower icing threat.  (But fuel icing starts to concern me at -35c, and boots have a minimum deployment temperature limit ). Type of terrain below counts heavily - upslope air off the ocean or Great Lakes can ice you up very rapidly, for instance.  After cruising at cold temperature the fuel in wing tanks stays cold and then descending through warm rain that super cold fuel can ice the wings over & under fuel tank areas aft of boots and it looks just like freezing rain.  

So, yes, there's more to think about.  With a capable FIKI plane I've departed into weather I'd have rejected immediately before.  But I've stayed on the ground some days, too.  

The black/white cases are easy:  If heavy freezing rain and SLD is widespread, sure, stay at home by the fire and read a book.  But flying through a large low with lots of light ice predicted, with basic VFR below clouds, that's a tougher call.  

[aaronk25]

Here is a good example of how fast ice can accumulate when descending down though a 2000 ft layer of moisture saturated air at -5c. This only took about 2 min to accumulate. I will say there was no measurable loss in airspeed but if this was 2 min worth how would 10x be which would be 20 min? Would have had 3-4inches if ice....might not have been able to stay in the air. Be careful this winter.

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[jetdriven]

yikes!

[Danb]

8 hours ago, aaronk25 said:

Here is a good example of how fast ice can accumulate when descending down though a 2000 ft layer of moisture saturated air at -5c. This only took about 2 min to accumulate. I will say there was no measurable loss in airspeed but if this was 2 min worth how would 10x be which would be 20 min? Would have had 3-4inches if ice....might not have been able to stay in the air. Be careful this winter.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Danb]

Jeez....

 

[wishboneash]

A good video to watch and learn

 

[thinwing]

On 1/3/2016 at 9:38 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

You take a credit card out of your wallet, stick your arm out the storm window and scrape the ice off.

I don't think so!

[slowflyin]

My last icing encounter. Less than 30 seconds to accumulate with the windscreen completely covered with no signs of letting up. An immediate climb (less than 1000 feet)to clear air stabilized things. These photos were taken after a divert from the Grand Canyon to KABQ in clear air. Another GA aircraft was also flying the approach with negative ice. As others have said, "Ice is where you find it". I found it, he did not. One other note, com's were degraded significantly.


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