Refurbished M20J

[timpercarpio]

Pristine Airplanes already does what you suggest....http://pristineairplanes.com

[NotarPilot]

I suspect most buyers would expect a GPS at that price point.

 

I think it would be a great idea but at $325k for a basic steam ifr plane I feel the market would be limited at best..If in the same bracket one could have a glass equipped fiki reconditioned say at minimum 252 speed there would be a market.....the Rocket reconditioned to like new would be sold prior to touching them...I'd consider a program where the owner delivers his airframe to be upgraded or zero timed up to there menu of specs...let's face it we feel we have the best airframe on the market...I was just looking at Lancairs not to buy but for performance etc...that would be tough competition...I'd love to find a run out beat up Rocket and have a reputable builder recondition the plane top to bottom...

My idea was to keep the initial costs down.  I believe Cessna, Cirrus and even Mooney's new airplane are extremely expensive partly due to the fact that you can only get them with glass cockpits.  You can't by a new simple 172 trainer with basic steam gauges even if you wanted to.  This raises the cost.  I realize most people would want a glass cockpit in a new plane but they should have the option to start with a base plane and customize from there to suit the customer's needs.

 

New cirrus or 172 has G1000 at that price point.

Yes but the new 172 and SR20 do not have the performance and efficiency of a J.  Although the SR20 comes very close.

 

What kind of warranty would it have. And i did look at the J on controller and Jose makes a good point. I think the kicker would have to be a normalized engine to make it a real seller.

I would say if the customer wanted to pay for normalizing then it could be offered.

 

I would be your target market. I would not consider buying such a plane with steam gauges. In fact, would need to present a better value than the alternatives to even consider purchasing with a full G500 + GTN750, etc. panel.

As Piloto pointed out, it's still a used aircraft. Financing and insurance issues will also present challenges at that price point.

I enthusiastically support your idea exploration and entrepreneurship. Just my honest reaction to the concept.

I understand that blue book values hit a ceiling with typical used aircraft but this concept would be a plane that was essentially brand new except for the airplane and the people appraising would have to see it as such.

 

I only did a brief google search so consider the source: I see new Cirrus prices north of 600K and 2012 C172S prices at $307K. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places.

 

G1000 is great and all, but the C172 still a 120kt airplane. At that price point I'd take the rebuilt J.

 

Then again, I doubt I'd ever spend 300K on an airplane...

I was referring to the Cirrus SR20, not the SR22.  The Google search I did found the SR20 to be a lot cheaper than the SR22.  The 2013 base price for the SR20 was around $319,000.

 

I've upgraded my Bravo with nearly every conceivable piece of avionics out there and I have much less than that amount in the plane.  I suspect your plan is not a viable one.  

Yes but you weren't doing it profit in mind.  I actually priced MOST of the items I could think of that would need to be replaced and came up with realistic costs for the labor and installation costs.  Assuming a $70,000 basic airframe to work with, the end cost would be around $267,000 per airframe.  That does not include overhead of the business such as hanger, maybe marketing costs, and costs of being able to cover the warranty.

 

I would too! There's only one problem with this however, and it's beyond our control. It is impossible to arbritarily "zero" an airframe! A zero airframe is a newly built airframe. Aluminum does not have an endurance limit. Therefore it reaches a point in its stress as a function of cycles curve where even a small amplitude stress will cause it to fail.

It's a question of when not if.

Hence the values reflect this. They hit a hard ceiling and stop.

It's like in real estate, location, location, location. Here it's airframe, airframe, airframe! Both variables we can do nothing about!

Not so! I respectfully disagree. Let's not kid ourselves! For the purposes of this discussion, a used Mooney cannot be compared to a factory new one. Not apples to apples. They're totally different markets.

I can possibly agree one can equip a used Mooney better than the factory for less cost.

But one cannot "build better than factory quality for far less than half of the cost of a new Mooney."

The value of a factory new Mooney is in the new airframe primarily. For the reason I stated above.

Incidentally, this is the problem with the op's proposal as I see it. Squeezed between a rock and a hard place. Used airplane values on one side and truly new airplanes on the other. He'll be selling a used airframe no matter what he does to it. There's no market in between these two very different animals.

I understand your point of stresses in the airframe that will eventually fail but I think some of the higher time Mooney airframes of 8,000+ hours show us that this failure point you speak of is most likely well north of the number of hours private owners typically put on their airplanes.

[BigTex]

In the car word, banks still have a hard time appraising a fully restored car to "like new" condition.  So I don't think there's a chance any bank would loan money for anything more than blue book value.  So as in restored car, we're talking cash buyers.  That alone will limit who can purchase these restored planes.

 

Also, if you cost out a new steam gauge panel vs glass you'll find with the same functionality the price isn't that far apart.  The cost is in the avionics, not the flight instruments.  Since these are traveling machines, you'll need an auto pilot, WAAS GPS and ADS-B enabled Transponder otherwise it's not going to sell.

 

I'm one of the biggest offenders of upgrading my plane well past book value but there's a big difference in an individual upgrading their plane beyond economic sense and someone building a business model that has to turn a profit.  It's a nice pipe dream... just watch what you're smoking.

[jrwilson]

I only did a brief google search so consider the source: I see new Cirrus prices north of 600K and 2012 C172S prices at $307K. Maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places.

 

G1000 is great and all, but the C172 still a 120kt airplane. At that price point I'd take the rebuilt J.

 

Then again, I doubt I'd ever spend 300K on an airplane...

The OP said SR20 while you probably looked at search results for the SR22. Totally different planes. 2014 prices are about $350k for the SR20.

[ArtVandelay]

I would think a panel full of steam gauges would be more expensive than glass panels, HSI alone is 12k not including installation and install must be easier without interwiring, no gyros, etc

[aviatoreb]

Pristine Airplanes already does what you suggest....http://pristineairplanes.com

 

I was trying to remember this company.  There is another one as well that does the same thing.

 

Anyway, take a look at this airplane.  A gorgeous refurbed Mooney Eagle, new paint, new interior, very good avionics, 0 smoh engine, for $179.  I would be very tempted by that particular airplane if I were shopping today.

 

http://pristineairplanes.com/listing/2001-mooney-eagle-2-for-sale/

 

This suggests that some level of service on a J could be done for well less than $200, and in this topic of viability of the, price point is everything.

[rainman]

Pristine Airplanes already does this and has done several Mooneys. Tell them what you want and they do the refurb. I've done what you suggest to my 231 but there is no market to sell it without losing most of my upgrade costs....I do plan to keep it.

[aviatoreb]

I would too! There's only one problem with this however, and it's beyond our control. It is impossible to arbritarily "zero" an airframe! A zero airframe is a newly built airframe. Aluminum does not have an endurance limit. Therefore it reaches a point in its stress as a function of cycles curve where even a small amplitude stress will cause it to fail.

It's a question of when not if.

Hence the values reflect this. They hit a hard ceiling and stop.

It's like in real estate, location, location, location. Here it's airframe, airframe, airframe! Both variables we can do nothing about!

Not so! I respectfully disagree. Let's not kid ourselves! For the purposes of this discussion, a used Mooney cannot be compared to a factory new one. Not apples to apples. They're totally different markets.

I can possibly agree one can equip a used Mooney better than the factory for less cost.

But one cannot "build better than factory quality for far less than half of the cost of a new Mooney."

The value of a factory new Mooney is in the new airframe primarily. For the reason I stated above.

Incidentally, this is the problem with the op's proposal as I see it. Squeezed between a rock and a hard place. Used airplane values on one side and truly new airplanes on the other. He'll be selling a used airframe no matter what he does to it. There's no market in between these two very different animals.

 

You know, the Mooney airframe is chromoly steel, not aluminum.  Anyway, any metal can fail due to metal fatigue. But I doubt that there is a Mooney near such a fundamental limit due to use, although corrosion will hasten that process.  75 year old DC-3's are flying around with 100,000 hours on them.  I would not blink at a 10,000hr Mooney if it were inspected free of corrosion.  My Mooney is 4,000hrs and I think 2-4k hr airframes Mooneys could easily be found as good donors for this process.  Inspect for corrosion, and possibly X-ray or some other such inspect and then the airplane is declared good.

 

I have seen Bennett's airplane.  In my opinion, it is better than anything the factory offers.  Its stunning in all appearances, super custom, and furthermore, he replaced every single little part in that airplane that could wear, at time of refurb.  If offered that Mooney vs a 2015 factory-new M20J at the same price point of say, $500k, I might go for the new simply for resale value and bragging rights, even though Bennett's is nicer. If the offer was $200k vs $500k I would not blink and I would buy the nicer airplane - Bennett's, and at the better price.

[PTK]

I was referring to the aluminum components such as spar, skins, etc.

As you know skins are structural in our Mooneys.

[jetdriven]

PTK, yu are taking a simple view of aluminum fatigue. As long as you don't exceed the elastic limit the metal has an infinite fatigue life. Once you exceed the elastic limit it takes a permanent deformation. Aluminum fails slowly if repeatedly loaded up to the elastic limit. But it forms cracks and gives much advanced warning. But for all practical purposes, a Mooney wing spar has a fatigue life limit over 100,000 hours. The steel cage even longer.

[bonal]

Digital is cheaper than analog to manufacture but that's not the big issue here. You need to have a thriving market and let's face it the private pilot population is on its last legs we are the end my friends. Even the auto industry is freaking out because young people today don't care to own a car. Research has shown a 25% drop in the under 30 crowd that want to own a car kids today don't even Think getting a drivers license is that important any more. In the utopian world they ride public transportation instead and are taught that cars are killing the planet.

As for me if I could I would love to have a TN glass panel like new J for under half the cost of a new Mooney. If this is something you are going to do I wish you well and applaud your enthusiasm.

[carusoam]

In this arena, it seems your competition is

- avid owners (like Don and Bennet and another one of us in the NE)

- Pristine, but they are not limited to Mooneys or one airframe at a time...

The Eagle at Pristine is a special case....

Swap out the engine, repair the GU damage, add a stripe of paint, add some radios then sell for <$200k, and still make money?

You would need some...

- skill to identify and source quality airframes.

- lower cost of mechanic and electronic installation work (higher a qualified mechanic full time, not by the hour)

- lower cost of avionics (typically volume discounts drive down prices)

- lower cost of paint and interior (volume discount?)

The (low cost) place where you do the work will be important to your finances.

One airframe at a time using outside labor may require being fill-in labor. When the neighboring shops don't have enough work to do, they can put a mechanic to work on your project...

When it comes time to sell...

You may need to provide...

- Warranty to some extent.

- build a brand to some extent.

- build a sales channel to some extent.

Something that could work...

(1) acquire a fine worn out airframe at a deep discount...

(2) replace all wear items (rubber, bushings, hard wear, bearings etc...

(3) replace interior

(4) reseal tanks

(5) paint

(6) 60 other things, including latest avionics...

(7) deliver to MSC for official quality stamp / Annual Inspection.

(8) deliver to AAA for marketing and sale.

If you do it correctly and honestly, you will build a small business with high risk, large capital investments and small margins. You wil be recognized like some individuals who lead some MSCs around the country.

Over promising or under delivering will be a constant challenge. It may be hard to self identify these before it becomes too late.

I hope it works out for you.

Some shared ideas regarding machine sales,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Digital is cheaper than analog to manufacture but that's not the big issue here. You need to have a thriving market and let's face it the private pilot population is on its last legs we are the end my friends. Even the auto industry is freaking out because young people today don't care to own a car. Research has shown a 25% drop in the under 30 crowd that want to own a car kids today don't even Think getting a drivers license is that important any more. In the utopian world they ride public transportation instead and are taught that cars are killing the planet.

As for me if I could I would love to have a TN glass panel like new J for under half the cost of a new Mooney. If this is something you are going to do I wish you well and applaud your enthusiasm.

 

Market demand can change in an instant.

 

Classic school of economics example: Look what happened to the horse whip business.  For hundreds of years a well made horse whip was a necessity and the companies that made the best had a secure long term business.  Suddenly the demand went away, and there was nothing you could do about it.

 

In my small town of Potsdam NY there is a wonderful mom-and-pop Music and electronics story that has gone out of business this past month.  They were in business since the early 1970s.  They sold electronics in small town USA where before them one would have to go to the big city (Syracuse is a 2.5 hour drive, Ottawa is a 1:20 drive) to buy fancy electronics like TVs, radios, stereos EIGHT TRACK tapes, etc.  Now people are buying that stuff online from amazon etc, or from the walmart that moved in five miles away 5 years ago.  They also sold records.  Records gave way to eight track and eight track to cassettes and cassettes to discs.  All was fine since you would still go to the brick and mortar store to buy that stuff.  Suddenly we have iTunes.  People don't buy records at the store anymore.  They download music.

 

I expect that within 50 years personal transportation will only exist as a hobby.  If I want to go somewhere, I will pull out my iPhone (iPhone 18) and pull up an app and type in where I am and where I want to go.  A large quadcopter will come from a nearby depot within 90 seconds, and a little pod below it will have a door that will open and I will step in.  The door will close and I will be whisked to where I want to be at high speed.  All operated by computers.  If I need to cross the country the quadcopter will deposit me at a source of higher speed transportation.  Or some other new-method of computer operated transportation.

 

In the future - We may still be able to fly airplanes at great expense, but only because its fun.  Only the collectors will own cars, motorcycles and airplanes.  A few will even operate them.  I don't own a horse or a buggy.....

[Marauder]

I suspect that Mooney may have already investigated the possibility of providing "certified pre-owned" and made the determination that profitability levels were not good enough. Keep in mind, as a manufacturer, they have access to supplier pricing. You really don't think that induction rubber boot costs Mooney $300?

The leading manufacturers in the auto industry are able to do this because they have a steady supply of leased cars and can take advantage of trade-in pricing on new cars to make it work for them. As well, they aren't working with 50 year old cars...

[Steve65E-NC]

   I do not see this in the US market.  However, there are a lot of high engine time airframes in the US and also lots of mid-time stock for available US buyers.  I have wondered if there would not be a business model that exported airframes with run out engines to say China.  Use local labor to refurbish airframes and rebuild engines.  The entrepreneurs there are cheap bastards just like us.  They would love to buy a good airplane for 25% of the cost of new to fly around to their operations.  The Chinese government seems to be interested in getting the country jump-started in GA and might even help out or subsidize.

[mooniac15u]

The most important aspect of product development is understanding customer wants/needs as opposed to your own ideas. Things that may not seem critical to you may be high on the list of priorities for buyers. Seems like a number of people here have identified modern avionics as high priority. You can accept this as useful input or you can try to defend your position. Seems like some additional customer research would be helpful.

[Cruiser]

You need to work with a broker, someone like AAA that could offer the service to any buyer. The "refurbishment" would be new owner directed.

I just don't see how you can do this in a general sense. The market just isn't there.

[bonal]

My point is you need a customer base and your correct about the buggy whip example first lesson taught in ecomics 101 there will always be purists like me that know music is better if left analog and not compressed into some crap digital imitation but I don't represent the masses. those of us that are old enough to really know life before computers there was a real facination with flight.

Now it's virtual this and virtual that. I fear for those that are just now discovering the joy that we know as pilots they may only get to ride around in computer controlled helicopter pods. Poor little Timmy, sorry wrong thread.

[Danb]

I have to agree with almost all the points laid out( that's scary) I strongly agree with Notar that there need to be a middle ground offering us like new for a reasonable cost point, pristine does have that nice Eagle at $175k. I believe if a good group of mechanics could get affordable parts reconditioned planes could make it...not in our league but there are Dukes with P&W conversions p210 gone pt6 route so there is some buyers willing to spend there money on quality unique professional products..Lancairs pressurized some with turbo props...there needs to be that quality group along with the airframe to concentrate on...face it Rocket engineering could have been the perfect route along with a professional rebuilder...compare a like new perfect glass Rocket with the price of an Acclaim or my Bravo GX prior to the Acclaim...my $$$ would have been better spent in a much smaller amount if say a like new Rocket was available even for $300k my GX was just south of $500 k. Big difference..

[flyboy0681]

Just out of curiosity, what could one expect to pay for a new interior by a reputable outfit? Our '83 J is looking a little ragged these days.

[Bennett]

Just out of curiosity, what could one expect to pay for a new interior by a reputable outfit? Our '83 J is looking a little ragged these days.

An absolute top of the line leather interior, with leather yokes, leather covered side panels and window frames can easily cost more than $17,500. Add aircraft honeycomb side panels for stiffness and to save weight, add recessed arm rests, have the window frames under the leather done in carbon fiber, again to add stiffness and save weight, re-do all carpets in best materials, have the pilot's seat multi memory foam custom fitted to fit your buttocks and spine, and finally add a factory articulating co-pilot seat if you don't already have one (about $5,000 from the factory - just for the lower seat part), and the total interior costs can exceed $22,000.  It really has to be important to you to spend this sort of money when functionally it could be done for much, much  less. The object of my refurbishment was "create" the airplane I always wanted. At 80, this is mostly likely my last airplane, and I want to enjoy it to the fullest. I will ultimately sell her for far less than I paid to have this airplane built the way I wanted to, but flying her is a reward to me for living so long, and continuing to work hard in my businesses. 

 

Oh, I prefer the "sacred six" to the glass with moving side tapes. I've had full glass panels in other aircraft I have owned, and unless I could have a Garmin 3000, I am happy with this panel ( I also have a Dynon D1 EFIS back-up, not shown, and a a "Lifesaver" backup AI).

[flyboy0681]

An absolute top of the line leather interior, with leather yokes, leather covered side panels and window frames can easily cost more than $17,500. Add aircraft honeycomb side panels for stiffness and to save weight, add recessed arm rests, have the window frames under the leather done in carbon fiber, again to add stiffness and save weight, re-do all carpets in best materials, have the pilot's seat multi memory foam custom fitted to fit your buttocks and spine, and finally add a factory articulating co-pilot seat if you don't already have one (about $5,000 from the factory - just for the lower seat part), and the total interior costs can exceed $22,000.  It really has to be important to you to spend this sort of money when functionally it could be done for much, much  less. The object of my refurbishment was "create" the airplane I always wanted. At 80, this is mostly likely my last airplane, and I want to enjoy it to the fullest. I will ultimately sell her for far less than I paid to have this airplane built the way I wanted to, but flying her is a reward to me for living so long, and continuing to work hard in my businesses. 

 

Oh, I prefer the "sacred six" to the glass with moving side tapes. I've had full glass panels in other aircraft I have owned, and unless I could have a Garmin 3000, I am happy with this panel ( I also have a Dynon D1 EFIS back-up, not shown, and a a "Lifesaver" backup AI.

 

It's an absolute bute, but not sure which comes in first, yours or Fantom's.

[Danb]

Bennett that is a first class beauty..

[Bennett]

It's an absolute bute, but not sure which comes in first, yours or Fantom's.

Not a contest. Fantom wins for him, and I am happy with the work that Tom at Aircraft Designs did for me. 

[carusoam]

I enjoy your logic Bennett!

Every day.

Best regards,

-a-