New Aspen Install

[ChrisH]

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/ifr/

 

Download the DERS file, the README explains where and how to get data for the approaches and what data is in the file. Still free. (edit, paid for by our existing aviation taxes) Still has language from the attempt to make it paid back in 2011.

 

Chris.

[M016576]

Hmmmmm-

Want proof that young tech savvy kids don't care about general aviation?

If they did- they would have cracked Garmin / Jeppesen's code for parsing NavData and started a home grown company that offered the data for half price....

[MB65E]

ForeFlight rocks!!

[mike_elliott]

 To be legal you only need to verify that your outdated data base data for the intended flight still correct. I check for approaches at Airnav.com, it is free. For route I just go to the pilot shop open the charts and look at them but no purchase. Do the same at the news paper stands.

 

José

 

It is ok to only verify the outdated data for your particular (insert flight segment here) is correct, but what if the STC requires you to have current nav data in your Garmin? Would it be a legal navigation device then?

[PTK]

A few points.

Jepp or Garmin do not get the raw data for free.

If I choose to install a Garmin (using G as an example here) in my panel I'm also ok with them processing the raw data and giving it to me in a format digestible by my unit. How they obtained the data isn't at all important to me. As the end user of their hardware I want current and processed data ready to be used in the format required. I'm perfectly ok paying for this service because I'm the one using it!

What I don't want is to use a service that someone else is paying for anymore than I want to pay for a service I don't use.

Our tax dollars do not pay for aviation NAV data. I don't want that anymore than I want my tax dollars paying for my neighbors boating charts as an example.

I also don't want the FAA mandating anything. This is America!

The system is fine the way it is. We simply pay for what we use. It's a bargain!

[KSMooniac]

It is a very fuzzy gray area the way I see it.  The Feds develop, maintain, and regulate the national airspace system (NAS).  This is one of the limited areas that I would absolutely say is a good thing the fed gov't has their fingers in...there are all sorts of interstate commerce, public safety, national defense, etc. arguments to be made in favor of this.  The NAS benefits the entire population, even those that do not fly their Mooneys, or even ride commercially on a cattle tube.  How many tons of freight move everyday via air?  The Amazon delivery your non-flying neighbor gets today might have flown in the NAS last night.  It *is* a public service from which everyone benefits and pays via federal taxes.  PTK, some of your tax dollars are supporting I-35 in my part of the country, and I doubt you drive on it regularly.  

 

The charts and plates all flow from the fed's regulation of the NAS, so we should be able to utilize this data that has already been "purchased" for the asking.  Nominal costs for printing & distribution of paper products are assumed.  Perhaps a reasonable fee for downloading to support server space and bandwidth for quick downloads is in order.  

 

I feel absolutely violated paying Jeppessen (a 3rd party company) $550/year (dual GNS navdata) to simply distribute what is already available from the Feds!  They don't add ANY value to the product...they just pass it on to me.  It would be different if I bought their charts, which they do format differently and better in many regards.  They have a premium product and charge accordingly.  But for the Navdata product, it is just legalized extortion because of the agreement with Garmin and the Feds.  AOPA should push for a common format for such data and a mechanism for us to get it for free or nominal cost.  Jepp or Garmin or Foreflight or anyone else should be allowed to innovate and develop other products (such as the moving maps, geo ref plates, etc) and charge accordingly for those.  The basic database of waypoints/airports/navaids should be available to us directly.

[Piloto]

It is ok to only verify the outdated data for your particular (insert flight segment here) is correct, but what if the STC requires you to have current nav data in your Garmin? Would it be a legal navigation device then?

 

Have not seen one having the requirement on the STC certificate. What I have seen are ADs/SBs requiring firmware updates. A wise pilot would always cross check visually or with other NAV sources the accuracy of its navigator (GPS/IRS). Not only because of the database currency but because of the GPS performance. When on an IMC approach I always cross check with the ILS (if available). BTW it is conceivable that your current database update has errors that didn't exist on the previous update.

 

José 

[Cruiser]

snip

Our tax dollars do not pay for aviation NAV data. I don't want that anymore than I want my tax dollars paying for my neighbors boating charts as an example.

I also don't want the FAA mandating anything. This is America!

The system is fine the way it is. We simply pay for what we use. It's a bargain!

 

 

 

Oh my ! Peter,

 

I am sure you can point me to the source about not paying for FAA  NAV data. Who do you think is footing the bill?

 

check it out. NOAA ( a government agency) has been giving away (that's for free) electronic chart data for marine charts. Yes Sir! you are paying for that.

look here: http://www.charts.noaa.gov/

I use them all the time with my charting software on the boat. They are in standard (universal format) so any software provider can display them.

 

Please tell me I am reading your post wrong. You don't believe the FAA is mandating anything? What about ADS-B?

[Marauder]

Oh my ! Peter,

I am sure you can point me to the source about not paying for FAA NAV data. Who do you think is footing the bill?

check it out. NOAA ( a government agency) has been giving away (that's for free) electronic chart data for marine charts. Yes Sir! you are paying for that.

look here: http://www.charts.noaa.gov/

I use them all the time with my charting software on the boat. They are in standard (universal format) so any software provider can display them.

Please tell me I am reading your post wrong. You don't believe the FAA is mandating anything? What about ADS-B?

To support Tom's comments, read this statement in blue on this page:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/

For years the FAA made electronic downloading of aviation NAV data available to anyone who wanted it -- for free. Companies like Jepp took the data and created their own version of the data based on the FAA data and created the Jepp products we know as Jepp charts and plates. Other companies like Garmin and Seattle Avionics took the same data and created their own version of it for aviation products they sold. It was also available through NOAA/FAA as paper products.

The FAA is responsible for the production of the data since it took it over from the NOAA. When you read the statement on the website, it is clear that they are concerned about recovering cost (especially since their paper products sales were impacted by electronic EFBs) and the integrity of the data in the hands of some of the vendors. In 2011, they instituted a proposal that looked at how this data was managed. It was expected that a fee proposal would be instituted. To date, it has not been fully implemented although fees are charged for certain electronic products -- check out the price list.

If a full fee structure is implemented you can expect to pay more for the certified box database subscriptions as well as an increase for apps that use this data (like ForeFlight, WingX and Garmin Pilot). It is hardly likely that the producers of these products will give a cut of their royalties without passing some or all of this cost onto us as consumers.

[PTK]

The digital world we live in is moving rapidly that's for sure. So rapidly that the FAA can't keep up. I did some reading and realy feel more educated on this.

Some things are starting to bother me a little frankly. Statements like: "The FAA does not currently use appropriated funds to cover the compilation, production, or distribution costs of electronic or paper charts." and,

"The CIFP (Coded Instrument Flight Procedures) uses the ARINC 424 standard. GPS and FMS do not currently support the use of "raw" ARINC 424 data. Individual avionics manufacturers process the data into their proprietary format for use in GPS or FMS units. The FAA does not process aeronautical information for use in any GPS or FMS."

I take these to mean that the FAA is, at the present time, providing digital raw data in a standard format to anybody for the asking! Avionics manufacturers take this and format it into their own proprietary formats for their customers.

On the surface this may seem inappropriate but I'm sure there's more to it than meets the eye.
They may be justified based on certified/non-certified units.
Back to do more reading!
 

[Danb]

Come on Chris I'v heard that those soft silky panties are quite comfy...just a rumor i'v heard about....now back to Garmin...has anyone heard anything about the new Mooney doing anything yet re: the G-1000 and WAAS for we screwed ones?

[KSMooniac]

I wonder if the GDL 88 or 84 would work with the legacy G1000 systems?  Mooney and Garmin should step up and provide a reasonably-priced WAAS upgrade for the Mooney G1000 system, but if not I wonder if the add-on boxes are compatible.

[PTK]

...now back to Garmin...has anyone heard anything about the new Mooney doing anything yet re: the G-1000 and WAAS for we screwed ones?

One way or another we're all getting screwed it seems. It's the nature of the beast and we're sitting ducks!

Thank you Scott, Chris and Tom for the enlightenment.

I wish the FAA would catch-up and get with the program so we can hopefully see some reasonable prices.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I keep all of my databases current and it costs me a 1000 AMUs a year.

That's about right.  We (my avaition partner and I) spend about $750 for the America's annual subscription for a pair of GNS devices.   That covers North America and Mexico and Canada.   We fly all over the USA and it is great to have current data always in the machine.  Ditto for ForeFlight for another $130 per year.    In years past we'd buy lots of paper and toss it out every 28 days.    Today's approach is  more effective and cheaper than the old charts subscriptions.  

I do miss those nice VFR and IFR low enroute charts, though.   They made good wrapping paper when obsolete. 

[donkaye]

That's about right.  We (my avaition partner and I) spend about $750 for the America's annual subscription for a pair of GNS devices.   That covers North America and Mexico and Canada.   We fly all over the USA and it is great to have current data always in the machine.  Ditto for ForeFlight for another $130 per year.    In years past we'd buy lots of paper and toss it out every 28 days.    Today's approach is  more effective and cheaper than the old charts subscriptions.  

I do miss those nice VFR and IFR low enroute charts, though.   They made good wrapping paper when obsolete. 

 

1000 AMUs?  I thought an AMU was $1,000.

[Marauder]

1000 AMUs? I thought an AMU was $1,000.

Us Cheap Bast&$ds feel like we are getting more by using the $1 to 1 AMU ratio. You guys with the high end machines probably find it easier to use the 1000:1 ratio --- just a lot less zeros to deal with

[Bob_Belville]

Nice try.

[bhilgy]

What do you guys think of my cool new Aspen??!!  GO!

 

HAHA

[Bill Dunn]

you guys are worse than my jeep club forum about getting off topic haha!

[carusoam]

We have finally achieved the critical mass required to have a continuous running conversation....

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

you guys are worse than my jeep club forum about getting off topic haha!

You need to look at the positive side -- at least Timmy hasn't shown up in this thread.

[mbmaksymdc10]

Inspired by some of the recent Aspen questions to share my own decision and process:

 

I purchased my M20J MSE in April knowing that the AI was on a short leash with over 2200 hours on the original.  I bought it "right" knowing that I would be upgrading to Aspen or equivalent.  I did some additional research and most advice pointed me to the Aspen as the most cost effective option, given that I was committed to my existing 530 for GPS/Comm,etc. and my combination of Stratus/iPad and yoke mounted Garmin 496 with XM Weather for dual weather sources.

 

I booked my install for September on August 21st and took off for a long cross country with a buddy on August 22nd.  40 minutes into our 4 hour flight the AI went out!  How's that for timing!  Hand flew our trip there and back and stayed VMC!

 

We'll she's been in the shop for a couple weeks now and I'm told she'll be ready by next Wednesday or so. The whole process will have taken just over 3 weeks.

 

Here's some details on my decisions and changes:

 

Evolution PFD1000

EA100 for Roll Steering (I had roll steering slaved to 530 and love shooting approaches with the sett-up...only simplified through PFD!)

Wanted flush mounting so cutting a new panel allowing me to also move the Engine monitor to the ADF location

Installed Fuel flow to the JPI and connecting to 530

Hard wiring the 496 to the 530 (couldn't do it without taking out the 530)

 

Attaching some progress pictures.....seeing her torn down is like getting a picture of your open heart surgery (I assume!).....Eeek!

 

IMG_0078.jpgIMG_0079.jpgIMG_1692.jpgIMG_1693.jpgIMG_2787.jpeg

[mbmaksymdc10]

Apen is a good piece of equipment but the equipment is so far advance that with any problems the avionics installer don't have a clue

I hope you are not having it installed by any company's on the west side of florida

[Marauder]

That's about right. We (my avaition partner and I) spend about $750 for the America's annual subscription for a pair of GNS devices. That covers North America and Mexico and Canada. We fly all over the USA and it is great to have current data always in the machine. Ditto for ForeFlight for another $130 per year. In years past we'd buy lots of paper and toss it out every 28 days. Today's approach is more effective and cheaper than the old charts subscriptions.

I do miss those nice VFR and IFR low enroute charts, though. They made good wrapping paper when obsolete.

Jerry -- one thing I do miss about the paper system... Drinking that six pack of beer while I spent hours updating the Jepp books.

[M016576]

Jerry -- one thing I do miss about the paper system... Drinking that six pack of beer while I spent hours updating the Jepp books.

Don't need approach plates to drink a sixer: just go flying FIRST, then crack the beers AFTER you land- it's a great reward

I guess modern times and computers have made life so fast, now we have to drink without any projects to complete!