Johnson bar - What is the normal force to operate?

[flyingvee201]

I know this topic have been brought up several times in the past (beem reading the older posts)

My new (new to me) plane took a lot of force to remove from the locking bar and swing down to the floors locking latch.

I did NOT like that at all. Im not a weak person..but DAM!!

Took to my mx and he worked on it for over 4 hours and lubed all the internal parts (except the outer areas where the wheels are).

It's better, but it seems to me its still too hard to manipulate up or down.

 

I've seen some youtube videos and it looks a lot easier there.

 

Im I missing something?   Should it over center and get easy as you get close to either locking block?

Right now it takes 2 hands to get it done!

 

-Vic

 

[FloridaMan]

It should not take much. If it stops at the "sticking point" about 30 degrees out of the gear-down latch, it can be a bit tricky. It's easiest to swing the gear when the wing is not loaded and you are not at gear speed. It's happened to me once or twice, usually when cycling the gear on a missed approach while doing practice approaches since my speed is already approaching max gear extension speed and I'm climbing. Also, right after I bought the plane I didn't have the gear fully secured in the up position and the handle popped up when i was doing about 150. I that case, I chopped power, pitched up, slowed and pulled the gear back up. 

 

If it gives you trouble, pitch up to where you're below 120 mph, then lower the nose and unload the wing while you move the handle, it should come right up. Now that I think about it, I level off for the half second or so the gear is in transition. 

[N601RX]

Its a easy one hand job.  Are there any rub marks on the front gear doors where they are hitting the tire?  If this is happening it will be about an inch or so before the doors close.  If its lubed well and no rod ends are stuck the the overcenter torque is to high.  If a mechanic in your area don't have the torque plates, you may want to consider purchasing a set.  Several people on here have .

[1964-M20E]

1. If you have not put the plane on jacks yet get it on the jacks and work the gear and see what forces it takes it should not be very difficult
2. Make sure all pivot points and linkages and springs etc. have been well cleaned and lubricated including everything in the wheel wells you need to pull the belly pans to access all of them
3. There are several springs in the gear system some of them have sliding tubes
4. If you still have problems you need to go through the complete gear rigging procedure
5. You will need the gear tension tools as well as a dial indicating torque wrench

 

My former E model started giving me trouble lowering the gear to get the last bit into the locking block.  I lubricated myself and it helped.  We lubricated more at the annual and while changing some retraction links and other gear parts we re-rigged the gear and it worked fine.

[Bob_Belville]

Assuming the rigging is right, it is important to keep the handle moving to make momentum your friend. Lot of folks dip the nose momentarily as they are raising the gear so that they're not fighting centrifugal force trying to to throw the wheels out in the climb. I suspect you find lowering the gear is much easier that raising but again, keep it moving. (I posted a video on another thread of our arrival at SnF and I had to back up the video to catch where I lowered the gear. Happened so fast it's hard to see. Had to watch the green & red gear position lights!)

[PMcClure]

Make sure the rigging is correct - but....if you wait too long, it is difficult to close at higher speeds. I don't remember the exact speed, but if I didn't have it secure by the end of the runway, it was almost impossible. Done at the right time, it should swing down and secure without much force or thought. 

[SpamPilot]

Not sure my experience is typical, but the manual gear on my (new to me) M20F is light and easy to swing in either direction.  A pleasure to use, in fact.

 

After reading the various commentaries on how it was important to do it in one smooth motion while quickly adjusting hand position, and of other peoples' difficulties, I had steeled myself for an awkward and difficult experience.  I gave myself cramps the first couple of times I tried to do it according to the recommended technique.  But it turns out I can take my time and there's no drama or excessive force required.  I calmly unlock the thumb button, push the grip down to get it out of the latch, and the bar swings gently on its own about halfway with little effort on my part.  In my aircraft midway is a neutral position, and the bar will simply stay there if I let it.  I don't bother anymore trying to do all this in one smooth motion.  Rather, I take my time at the midpoint, adjust my hand position so it is comfortably on top of the lever, and then push down to the floor.  I doubt I put more than 10 lbs of force on it to get it down.  Then I take my time pushing the grip into the floor latch, and double-check to make sure it is latched (and then recheck a third time a little later).

 

I keep the aircraft near Vx until I have retracted the gear, so that helps.  But the few times when I have retracted at Vy have not been much different, maybe a little harder to push the bar to the floor.

 

I have been advised that tapping the brakes can help, too, since then you aren't trying to move two spinning gyroscopes.  I keep forgetting to do this.

 

I have also been advised that my Mooney has "one of the sweetest swinging gears" ever.  I understand it's primarily a matter of preload, not lubrication so much.  YMMV.

[N601RX]

Preload only comes into play in the last inch or so of handle travel as the gear is put into the wheel/gear down position.

[carusoam]

Raise the gear before going too fast...

Lower the gear before going too slow...

Airspeed, momentum and lubrication are balancing forces to your arm strength.

There is a best speed to put it up and another speed that works to put it down. Transition training usually points this out...

-1965 M20C experience-

-a-

[rbridges]

If you're fighting the wind, it may help to raise your gear sooner.  People debate about when the best time to raise the gear, but I've started doing it relatively soon.  I have inner wheel fairings, and it is a beast to raise the gear if I wait too long and start building up speed.

[Marauder]

Sometimes if I don't pull the lever far enough out, I find it hard to swing it into the down position:

 

 

Sorry couldn't resist. From my limited experience with the manual system, making sure everything is lubed (and with the correct grease) and doing the retraction at lower speeds makes it easier.

[M20F-1968]

I have some experience with this if you want to give me a call - (617) 877-0025.  My e-mail is johnabreda@yahoo.com   Which model Mooney do you have?

[MARZ]

As you initiate a positive climb raise the gear, i usually have them stowed prior to halfway down the runway. Flaps are second after confirming positive climb - then trim trim trim.

[DrBill]

The key is speed. Between 80 and 90 mph it is not bad.  OVer 90,, you're working hard.. over 100mph, you may never  do it with one hand, over 120.. forget it... slow down.

That's my guide in my M20E

BILL

[BigTex]

as mentioned above is to keep the speed below 100mph....  But the key is to simultaneously unload the wing as you bring the gear up.  Do this and it's a piece of cake. 

[Hank]

The gear should move without binding or catching, and be stiff enough that your right arm grows a couple of sizes this summer. ;-)

[AmigOne]

Dr Bill and others said but is worth repeating, in my own experience on a 62 and a 68 M20C with proper rigging between 85-95 mph is a piece of a cake, over 100 mph the last 1/3 third is hard work.  And I have  semi permanent soreness in my right shoulder from rotator cuff surgery and lots of tennis, specially in summer.  Another trick, try to maintain the momentum all the way through even thought the last third is where your wrist turns.

[1964-M20E]

Sometimes if I don't pull the lever far enough out, I find it hard to swing it into the down position:

 

Gear switch.jpg

 

Sorry couldn't resist. From my limited experience with the manual system, making sure everything is lubed (and with the correct grease) and doing the retraction at lower speeds makes it easier.

Yes but try that switch when you have lost all electrical power.  

 

But hey I'm partial to the manual gear.

 

They are all good until you have problems

[Marauder]

Yes but try that switch when you have lost all electrical power.

But hey I'm partial to the manual gear.

They are all good until you have problems

You're right John. I would have to resort to the coffee grinder if I lost power. and you would use what if that wonderful handle broke?

If we keep going, this is going to turn into a CamGuard or not to CamGuard conversation.

P.S. I personally don't care which mechanism the plane has, as long as the gear comes down!

[Mooneymite]

Sometimes if I don't pull the lever far enough out, I find it hard to swing it into the down position:

 

Gear switch.jpg

 

Sorry couldn't resist. From my limited experience with the manual system, making sure everything is lubed (and with the correct grease) and doing the retraction at lower speeds makes it easier.

 

Actually, those of us with the electric gear in the 'C' and 'E' models should pay attention to this discussion since the airspeed loads and lubrication/rigging are just as pertinent even if an electric motor is doing the work.  I believe that a lot of the gear-wear problems that have turned up in the electrical gear systems (hence the AD) are attributable to excessive loads caused by poor lubrication, poor rigging, high retraction speeds, or a combination of the three.

 

I think the electrics will last a long time if we just minimize the stress on the drive gears.  At least I hope so!  

[Hank]

I've had the pleasure of a total electrical failure on a VOR approach [under the hood with CFII] just below the clouds. The gear was most of the way down, only took 6 or 8 cranks for it to stop. Dropped gear, hit landing light button--darkness . . .

 

At any rate, I wait to lower the gear until after the flaps are at Takeoff; drop flaps at 115-120, retrim and hold gear up until ready to start descent, VFR or IFR.

 

Raising the gear is quick--by my Owner's Manual, "when safely airborne and in good control." This is usually below treetop level, as I accelerate through Vx.

 

Low airspeed = low gear motor stress =?=> long worm gear life

[Gone]

The key is speed. Between 80 and 90 mph it is not bad. OVer 90,, you're working hard.. over 100mph, you may never do it with one hand, over 120.. forget it... slow down. That's my guide in my M20E BILL

+ 1 Sent from my iPad

[Wildhorsesracing]

The key is speed. Between 80 and 90 mph it is not bad.  OVer 90,, you're working hard.. over 100mph, you may never  do it with one hand, over 120.. forget it... slow down.

That's my guide in my M20E

BILL

 

+1 - and I try to get the gear down on downwind as soon as I get the speed below 120 mph - helps slow the plane down and one less thing to worry about when things get busy.

[mikesalman]

I purchased my 68 M20F 3 months ago and had exactly same problem. the seller said it's all ways like that after an annual and will ease up in time, my mechanic was not convinced and my arm was starting to become sore REALY SORE. I purchase the gear rigging tools here on Moonespace and my mechanic went through the landing gear, checked and re-rigged the landing gear. Yesterday was my first flight after the rigging 3 takeoffs and landings and I can't be happier, It takes very little effort to raise and lower the landing gear now. I just hope my right elbow will eventually stop hurting. P.S. This was my first Johnson bar experience.

[flyingvee201]

I purchased my 68 M20F 3 months ago and had exactly same problem. the seller said it's all ways like that after an annual and will ease up in time, my mechanic was not convinced and my arm was starting to become sore REALY SORE. I purchase the gear rigging tools here on Moonespace and my mechanic went through the landing gear, checked and re-rigged the landing gear. Yesterday was my first flight after the rigging 3 takeoffs and landings and I can't be happier, It takes very little effort to raise and lower the landing gear now. I just hope my right elbow will eventually stop hurting. P.S. This was my first Johnson bar experience.

 

This is my first experience with a johnson bar too. I think the rigging or possibly the springs are fatigued. My annual is due in August..um...I might beg  and ask to borrow (or rent it from you!!) your rigging tools for the landing gear in August. Our mechanic did work on it and it's better now, but I still think it's too hard to move either up or down. I shouldnt have to get lifted off my seat as I push down to get the bar locked on the floor.  LOL