Two Lessons From The DCA Crash

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have a friend Lori who was in my old speed skating club. She was a serious competitor. 
 

After 9/11 she was mad and joined the Army. She was almost 30 years old at the time. She trained like crazy before going to basic training. She was crazy buff right before she left. We emailed a bit while she was training. She said she finished all the running and hiking ahead of all the guys. If anybody would have been carrying anybody else’s stuff, it would be her.

Last I heard she had been to Afghanistan 5 times.  She told me the story of her first deployment. They didn’t have separate tents or facilities and her group was coed. They did everything together sleep, eat dress and use the latrine all coed. She said there were no issues. If someone would have tried something with her, she would have kicked their ass. About a month later some officer came by and insisted they have separate tents and facilities. She said there were more problems being separate.

She also told me the story about her rifle. She said about every other month some officer would say either all the women must carry a rifle or cannot carry a rifle. She said whenever she got into a HUMVEE or a helicopter, somebody would hand her a rifle. 
 

She ended up running the post office for the Army in Afghanistan. She told me once that she knew more about where everybody was deployed than the generals did. 
 

She told me once she was really pissed because the bad guys were shelling her base and blew up the new Pizza Hut.

That Pizza Hut was one of the best sources of morale in Afghanistan!  That and the Thai restaurant in Kabul on the Nato base.  Surprisingly good!

[AIREMATT]

On 2/3/2025 at 1:50 PM, Pinecone said:

As I understand it, airline ops require response to an RA.

As I understand it yes, it will not generate an RA below 1000 feet AGL.

The TCAS system will still generate a TA below 1,000’. It won’t give you climb or descent commands (Resolution Advisory) but will call out “Traffic” to warn you of close proximity traffic that would cause a possible RA if you were above 1,000’.

[Sue Bon]

On 2/3/2025 at 7:16 PM, Schllc said:

DEI has been around a long time…

Well at least we can all sleep better knowing that this has been changed back 

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/notams-back-to-notice-to-airmen/

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Well at least we can all sleep better knowing that this has been changed back 

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/notams-back-to-notice-to-airmen/

If only the system could be fixed to distribute relevant NOTAMs . . .

[A64Pilot]

Don’t get me started about the Military, back in Clinton’s day.

Turbine inlet Temperature abbreviated as (TIT) was offensive so it was changed to Inlet Turbine Temperature (ITT)

Cockpit was offensive so it was changed to Crew Compartment. Any reference to manpower, or men as in addressing troops etc was also offensive and manuals again were changed

We laugh about that, but 30 years ago all manuals were printed so each change cost millions in printing and distribution not considering the massive number of man, excuse me person hours spent posting changes to every Aviation manual in the Army, and later every manual of which I’m sure there are thousands at least.

There were many other changes too of course like when you were at a Dr appt they used to call you by your last 4 of your SS, that was stopped and Civilian Govt employees called us SM’s for service members, that too was considered offensive and God knows how many other things.

Then in the last couple of years of course any Military post named for Southern Generals which as most are down South was most of them, at least the big ones anyway had to have its name changed, each change costing millions is printing, signs etc. but that was just the beginning by the time it was done thousands of building names, landmarks like hills, roads etc had to of course be changed, because the names were racist?

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Don’t get me started about the Military, back in Clinton’s day.

Turbine inlet Temperature abbreviated as (TIT) was offensive so it was changed to Inlet Turbine Temperature (ITT)

Cockpit was offensive so it was changed to Crew Compartment. Any reference to manpower, or men as in addressing troops etc was also offensive and manuals again were changed

We laugh about that, but 30 years ago all manuals were printed so each change cost millions in printing and distribution not considering the massive number of man, excuse me person hours spent posting changes to every Aviation manual in the Army, and later every manual of which I’m sure there are thousands at least.

There were many other changes too of course like when you were at a Dr appt they used to call you by your last 4 of your SS, that was stopped and Civilian Govt employees called us SM’s for service members, that too was considered offensive and God knows how many other things.

Then in the last couple of years of course any Military post named for Southern Generals which as most are down South was most of them, at least the big ones anyway had to have its name changed, each change costing millions is printing, signs etc. but that was just the beginning by the time it was done thousands of building names, landmarks like hills, roads etc had to of course be changed, because the names were racist?

The good news is that as of two days ago, Notice to "Airmen" has been reinstated. Gone is the term "Air Missions".

[Mooney in Oz]

15 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Don’t get me started about the Military, back in Clinton’s day.

Turbine inlet Temperature abbreviated as (TIT) was offensive so it was changed to Inlet Turbine Temperature (ITT)

Cockpit was offensive so it was changed to Crew Compartment. Any reference to manpower, or men as in addressing troops etc was also offensive and manuals again were changed

We laugh about that, but 30 years ago all manuals were printed so each change cost millions in printing and distribution not considering the massive number of man, excuse me person hours spent posting changes to every Aviation manual in the Army, and later every manual of which I’m sure there are thousands at least.

There were many other changes too of course like when you were at a Dr appt they used to call you by your last 4 of your SS, that was stopped and Civilian Govt employees called us SM’s for service members, that too was considered offensive and God knows how many other things.

Then in the last couple of years of course any Military post named for Southern Generals which as most are down South was most of them, at least the big ones anyway had to have its name changed, each change costing millions is printing, signs etc. but that was just the beginning by the time it was done thousands of building names, landmarks like hills, roads etc had to of course be changed, because the names were racist?

The Department of Stupidity and Idiocy runs our lives over here as well.

[Coachella Bravo]

And we wonder where the $$$ goes and why the debt is so very high.

Death by a million paper cuts.  Perhaps we're on the correct path finally.

 

 

 

[Pinecone]

One other point is.  DCA was supposed be closed down in the late 60s - early 70s.   IAD was supposed to replace it.  But no one wanted to go all the way out in the country to go to IAD.

But the Congress critters want DCA as it is short ride from the Hill to get out of town on Friday afternoon.  Be at DCA on Friday afternoon and you will see more Senators and Congressman that for the State of the Union address.

 

[aviatoreb]

On 2/13/2025 at 12:50 AM, Mooney in Oz said:

The Department of Stupidity and Idiocy runs our lives over here as well.

The DSI.

[EricJ]

The NTSB just had a press conference and offered a few tidbits:

The Blackhawk crew may have been wearing NVGs.

The Blackhawk was equipped with ADS-B-out.    They don't know why it wasn't transmitting.

The Blackhawk recorded a radio altitude of 278 ft at the time of collision.   They believe that data is good data.

They don't know what altitude the crew saw on their displays.   Some of the recorded information is known to be bad, so part of the ongoing work is to determine what altitude the crew saw on their displays.

The CRJ went to full up elevator before the crash and was at a nine degree pitch up.

The Blackhawk was essentially straight and level at the time of collision.

 

[AJ88V]

On 2/13/2025 at 6:42 PM, Pinecone said:

One other point is.  DCA was supposed be closed down in the late 60s - early 70s.   IAD was supposed to replace it.  But no one wanted to go all the way out in the country to go to IAD.

But the Congress critters want DCA as it is short ride from the Hill to get out of town on Friday afternoon.  Be at DCA on Friday afternoon and you will see more Senators and Congressman that for the State of the Union address.

 

Will say that DCA is my airport of choice for commercial flight, even though I'm equidistant to both Reagan and Dulles.  DCA is ten times easier to deal with than IAD mostly because it's much smaller.  Walking distances are shorter, Security is faster, everything is easier.  On the other hand, I don't much like the crazy approach and departure routines designed to avoid flying over the Capital, but that's the price we pay for 9/11 and I can accept it.

[AJ88V]

Pardon my citing the Gateway Pundit, but this was interesting and the quoted sections come direct from the NTSB:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/02/black-hawk-pilots-may-have-missed-air-traffic/

Black Hawk Pilots May Have Missed Air Traffic Directive and Flown on ‘Bad’ Altitude Data

by Jim Hᴏft Feb. 15, 2025 12:00 pm246 Comments

Credit: CBS/Samantha Brown

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has disclosed that the Black Hawk pilots involved in the devastating collision with an American Airlines flight on January 29 might have missed critical air traffic directives.

The tragic midair collision over the Potomac River on January 29, 2025, involved a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet, resulting in the loss of all 67 individuals aboard both aircraft.

The Black Hawk helicopter was operated by a crew of three Army personnel:

• Captain Rebecca M. Lobach, 28, from Durham, North Carolina, served as the pilot undergoing her annual night flying evaluation. Lobach, who had over 450 hours of flying experience, recently served as a military social aide at the Biden White House. It took the US Army and Rebecca’s family three days to scrub her social media accounts.

• Chief Warrant Officer 2 Andrew Loyd Eaves, 39, from Brooksville, Mississippi, functioned as the evaluator and pilot monitoring during the flight. He was responsible for communications with air traffic controllers. Eaves was a seasoned aviation officer with a commendable service record.

• Staff Sergeant Ryan Austin O’Hara, 28, from Lilburn, Georgia, served as the crew chief and in-flight aircraft maintenance technician.

According to NTSB Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy, the Black Hawk helicopter was possibly flying based on “bad data” concerning its altitude, which led to the collision with Flight 5342 over the Potomac River.

The helicopter was reported to be flying at 278 feet at the time of the crash, significantly above the 200-foot altitude limit for that specific airspace.

Americans Can Stockpile Ivermectin & Key Prescription Medicines – Here Is One Way To Do It

The discrepancies in altitude readings between what was recorded and what the pilots believed they were flying at are alarming, with one pilot reporting 300 feet and another claiming 400 feet.

Just 17 seconds before the fatal impact, a directive from air traffic control to “pass behind” the commercial jet might not have been fully received by the Black Hawk crew, possibly due to a communication overlap where the pilots inadvertently “stepped on” the transmission.

The Black Hawk pilots might have accidentally overridden the communication by pressing their microphone key while responding to the control tower.

Jennifer Homendy:
“At 8:47:42, or 17 seconds before impact, a radio transmission from the tower was audible on both CVRs, directing the Black Hawk to pass behind the CRJ. CVR data from the Black Hawk indicated that the portion of the transmission stating ‘Pass behind the’ may not have been received by the Black Hawk crew.

The transmission was stepped on by a 0.8 second mic key from the Black Hawk. The Black Hawk was keying the mic to communicate with ATC.

In response, at 8:47:44, the Black Hawk crew indicated that traffic was in sight and requested visual separation, which was approved by DCA Tower.

The instructor pilot then told the pilot flying, they believed ATC was asking for the helicopter to move left toward the east bank of the Potomac. At 8:47:52, or seven seconds before impact, the CRJ rolled out on final for runway 33.

The CRJ was at a radio altitude of 344 feet, traveling at 143 knots. At 8:47:58, or one second before impact, the CRJ began to increase its pitch, reaching about nine degrees nose up at the time of collision. FDR data show the CRJ elevators were deflected near their maximum nose-up travel.

The last radio altitude recorded for the CRJ was 313 feet and was recorded 2 seconds prior to the collision. The CRJ pitch at this time was again 9 degrees nose up, and roll was 11 degrees left wing down. The CRJ was descending at 448 feet per minute.

The radio altitude of the Black Hawk at the time of the collision was 278 feet and had been steady for the previous five seconds. The Black Hawk pitch at the time of the collision was about a half degree nose up with a left roll of 1.6 degrees.

Now, examination of the wreckage will assist in determination of the exact angle of the collision. Now, we’re confident with the radio altitude of the Black Hawk at the time of the collision, which was 278 feet.

But I want to caution that does not mean that’s what the Black Hawk was seeing on the barometric altimeter in the cockpit. We are seeing conflicting information in the data, which is why we aren’t releasing altitude for the Black Hawk’s entire route.”

May God bless all the souls lost in this incident.  No matter what errors they made, none of them intended for this result. - AJ

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Gaw!  I always cringe reading things written by people with no experience or knowledge about what they write about.  "Radio altitude" , etc.

[AJ88V]

5 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Gaw!  I always cringe reading things written by people with no experience or knowledge about what they write about.  "Radio altitude" , etc.

Despite being oddly phrased, the quote is from the NTSB 

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/board/Pages/Jennifer-Homendy.aspx

[A64Pilot]

On 2/15/2025 at 5:21 PM, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Gaw!  I always cringe reading things written by people with no experience or knowledge about what they write about.  "Radio altitude" , etc.

I know, but the NTSB briefer who I question her knowledge said Radio over and over.

Arguably the R in RADAR is radio.

Now I’ve been Retired since 03, but I have never heard of a “Gold Top” I believe it is a special VIP Blackhawk with very different equipment, like “black boxes” as in CVR and FDR. No Army aircraft when I was in had such a thing, the Longbow did, but it was the Maintenance Data Recorder that recorded everything that was on the Bus, and trust me Everything was on the Bus, but whike it had way more data than any FDR, it wasn’t fireproof, could survive crashes into concrete etc, may not even have been waterproof.

Apparently these “Gold Tops” have black boxes and who knows what else.

Edited February 18 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

On 2/15/2025 at 10:32 PM, AJ88V said:

Despite being oddly phrased, the quote is from the NTSB 

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/board/Pages/Jennifer-Homendy.aspx

I just looked her up on your link.

Apparently her technical expertise is that she has completed Private Pilot ground school and has logged hours in a C-172, I guess that makes her an expert and the one who should be briefing a Commercial accident and answering questions on National TV? Or maybe it just puts her in the limelight which is good for the Career?

[Hank]

The NTSB person I saw online and on TV repeatedly saying "radio altimeter" was identified as the head of the NTSB (director? administrator? I forget). EDIT--just saw another briefing by the "NTSB Chair," complete with "radio altitude".

This is the type of thing that happens when a career office-type jumps into the limelight and tries to address a technical matter, instead of letting the appropriate technician do the talking. Nothing but a godawful publicity hound.

[dkkim73]

35 minutes ago, Hank said:

The NTSB person I saw online and on TV repeatedly saying "radio altimeter" was identified as the head of the NTSB (director? administrator? I forget). 

This is the type of thing that happens when a career office-type jumps into the limelight and tries to address a technical matter, instead of letting the appropriate technician do the talking. Nothing but a godawful glory hound.

This seems typical. 
It seems as if these days we are seeing more and more people collecting "credibility points" and moving up in oversight responsibility, without deep expertise. She might be a smart person and interested in lots of safety things, but seems pretty diffuse in the variety of oversight areas. Not exactly Scott Crossfield or Richard McSpadden here in the level of deep aviation knowledge. 

Again, as pointed out above, probably better to let a deeply-knowledgeable junior person brief the technical details. 

The whole DEI thing, vis-a-vis pilots, toreques me off not so much on the who-can-do-it deeper issues (I wrote and deleted a whole post from a military flight doc's perspective after reflecting on my latest Grinch impersonation) but rather the focus on photo ops and promotions over performance. "We've got to get this geriatric brain-injured quad amputee as the first asian-american attack helicopter pilot to promote equity!" etc.  It ends up casting a shadow over people who might be doing a fine job but can't be evaluated objectively because they were chasing the wrong endpoints. 

*disclaimer I have four limbs

 

[EricJ]

I watched the press conference when she was saying "radio altitude".    It seemed to me that she was saying that just to distinguish it from altitude indicated by radar or just because she was speaking to the general public.   She seemed very knowledgable and cogent to me, and I thought she did an excellent job of clarifying what she meant as she was going along.  

[MikeOH]

14 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

"We've got to get this geriatric brain-injured quad amputee ..

*disclaimer I have four limbs

 

What, no disclaimer for the geriatric brain injuries??

[Hank]

6 hours ago, MikeOH said:

What, no disclaimer for the geriatric brain injuries??

Wouldn't that be TWO disclaimers???

[Pinecone]

19 hours ago, MikeOH said:

What, no disclaimer for the geriatric brain injuries??

That would be needed for members of Congress.

 

[Igor_U]

I thought Radio/Radar was both commonly used.

From Wiki: 
"A radar altimeter (RA), also called a radio altimeter (RALT), electronic altimeter, reflection altimeter, or low-range radio altimeter (LRRA), measures altitude above the terrain presently beneath an aircraft or spacecraft by timing how long it takes a beam of radio waves to travel to ground, reflect, and return to the craft."

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Igor_U said:

I thought Radio/Radar was both commonly used.

From Wiki: 
"A radar altimeter (RA), also called a radio altimeter (RALT), electronic altimeter, reflection altimeter, or low-range radio altimeter (LRRA), measures altitude above the terrain presently beneath an aircraft or spacecraft by timing how long it takes a beam of radio waves to travel to ground, reflect, and return to the craft."

 

Yeah, I’ve always heard these used interchangeably too