What Happens When A Commercial/CFI Rated Pilot "Claims" To FAA That He Put The Mooney Gear Down?.... Full NTSB Investigation!

[kortopates]

Those are pretty sad. But I find my gear warning to be much more obnoxious than both of those. The cessna's warning seems like it's too pleasant. 
That's why my initial question was whether different model mooneys had different alarms.  I don't remember the G I trained in being as awful as the alarm in my plane.

Maybe you should check the sonalert installed above your head for the gear warning to see if you have the correct part #. I’ve seen lots of Mooney’s with the wrong part # installed probably because it’s not hard for an owner to replace one. more often they install a continuous tone rather than pulsating tone. Regardless you don’t know what you have till you check.
I don’t know what model you have but you can have 2 or 3 sonalerts installed. One for stall (which is easy to eliminate) one for gear warning and often 1 for autopilot which is also easy to determine if so.


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[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, C.J. said:

Where is this being taught? That was not my experience, but I've been out of the G.A. training world for decades. Training in 74 -78, flaps before gear with at least 10 knots below Vfe & Vle was emphasized. Upon graduation as a newly minted CFI, I taught exactly that & didn't change my methods as a Part 135 check airman or Part 121 sim instructor.

I don’t know where it’s being taught, but everyone I fly with has there hand on the gear or flaps handle watching the A/S indicator and the instant they get to usually flap speed down they come. Mooney is a little unusual in that gear speed is higher.

Many if not most of the guy I fly with and it’s not real frequent are older more experienced Airline drivers and Net Jets etc. but even the ones that aren’t hit the flaps or gear at max allowable airspeed.

I think it’s common, as in flying WFO to get to breakfast that’s 15 min flight time away as well as climbing at Vy to get to 3,000 ft AGL to get there.

I’ve always thought that of course people teach what they have been taught, and that very few CFI’s have all that much aircraft ownership tine and of course teach in fleet aircraft and the rental car phenomenon kicks in, as in “who cares, it’s a rental”

I would suspect that the older CFI’s who aren’t in it just to build time until they can get that airline job and who have years of ownership experience are likely different.

My experience was a part 141 school where of course your instructor was a student last semester, well maybe two semesters ago, but their night job was waiting tables, they were of course working for that airline job like everyone else in the school, I was an outlier being Military in search of a degree, hence the 141 school as it gave a degree.

But where I know live the sky is full of similar schools the biggest likely Embry Riddle but there are many others, all teaching for that airline job.

[0TreeLemur]

On 11/5/2024 at 5:11 PM, Slick Nick said:

How the hell could you get the thing slowed enough on approach without the gear down?

While difficult, it is possible.   Tower might say "you're number 3 behind a King Air and a Citation" and ask for an extended downwind, so you think "I'll wait to drop the gear."  Then you get another traffic alert from tower, and after an intense search of the sky  you report that you don't see the Citation, they ask you to do a 270.  Next thing you know, you're slow and the gear are still up. 

Luckily, but for the grace of God, I did notice at the 500 ft call out that my gear were still up.

[A64Pilot]

As far as the pilot swearing he put the gear down that’s not at all uncommon that someone is sure they did something but didn’t. particularly when it’s an action that’s always taken, they are sure they did, often remember specifically doing it. For example a Commercial airliner not putting flaps in the T/O position. There are even many examples of someone voicing an action on the check list, without  actually doing it.

No matter how experienced we are or how many ratings we have we are ALL subject to doing something stupid. I would say that it may even be more likely for an experienced pilot who usually flies something much more complex. They are more likely to become more complacent in a simple, slow airplane like a Mooney as opposed to the 737, Citation or whatever they usually fly.

[dkkim73]

3 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

While difficult, it is possible.   Tower might say "you're number 3 behind a King Air and a Citation" and ask for an extended downwind, so you think "I'll wait to drop the gear."  Then you get another traffic alert from tower, and after an intense search of the sky  you report that you don't see the Citation, they ask you to do a 270.  Next thing you know, you're slow and the gear are still up. 

Luckily, but for the grace of God, I did notice at the 500 ft call out that my gear were still up.

This resonates. Disruption of routine is huge, esp if you have a workflow that defers it to a later fixed point. 

[midlifeflyer]

On 11/7/2024 at 5:54 PM, kortopates said:

True story, a relatively new pilot getting checked out in an arrow without any prior retract time wanted to check out the safety features he read about the gear not coming up on the ground due squat switch (or whatever it uses) so to make sure this was working on his pre-flight he moved gear lever to the up position. Oops - Test failed! Now it had several squawks!


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I knew an experienced CFI who managed to do that during a pinch hitter flight. In that case it was a Cutlass and he did just enough that the nosegear retracted while the mains remained. He was mortified.

[PT20J]

None other than the late great John Deakin describes how he almost bellied in a 747. https://www.avweb.com/features/pelicans-perch-80-gear-up-landing-in-a-747/

[Pinecone]

On 11/9/2024 at 12:50 PM, Greg Ellis said:

Here’s two examples both with the gear horns blaring away and completely ignored.

I remember a class mate in USAF UPT rolling off the perch on his first solo in the T-37.  Over his "Gear Down" call, one could clearly hear the gear warning horn.

I am a HUGE fan of the LHS system.  With the C model, you get a "Check Gear" voice prompt at 200 AGL with the gear handle in the Up position.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 11/9/2024 at 11:50 AM, Greg Ellis said:

Here’s two examples both with the gear horns blaring away and completely ignored.

I just cannot believe we do not hear #@Q$%!!$#!!! as they slide down the runway.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

On 11/9/2024 at 1:13 PM, C.J. said:

Where is this being taught?

I can tell you where it was being taught:  USN Carrier OPS.

As far as putting flaps down before gear, I think that is a huge mistake, especially in a Mooney.  Whether abeam or at the FAF, you should do three things in order: Prop, Gear, Flaps (first notch), in fairly rapid succession.  Building that habit will always keep you safest and results in slowing the airplane down enough for each of the next steps.

After my dad had a gear-up landing, his insurance insisted I fly with him on a permanent basis.  I noticed that since the C-210 had a higher flap speed (first notch) than gear speed, he would operate the flaps first, then not be consistent about what he did next; either Prop, Gear, or second notch of Flaps.  Even with his 5000 hours, the problem is that any distraction might throw off your habit pattern when you do not have a rock-solid pattern drilled into your brain.  That is why I insist my student always use that order, especially in Mooneys.

Edited November 12, 2024 by AH-1 Cobra Pilot

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

35 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I remember a class mate in USAF UPT rolling off the perch on his first solo in the T-37.  Over his "Gear Down" call, one could clearly hear the gear warning horn.

The audio I remember was the crew in a gear-up landing sliding down the runway with the horn blaring and the copilot says, "God Damn! That thing is loud!"

[MikeOH]

I can't believe the guy felt the need to touch the curled prop tips like three times!  Didn't seem to believe they were bent!

[EricJ]

26 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I can't believe the guy felt the need to touch the curled prop tips like three times!  Didn't seem to believe they were bent!

I think they were hot, so he was feeling the temperature.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I can tell you where it was being taught:  USN Carrier OPS.

As far as putting flaps down before gear, I think that is a huge mistake, especially in a Mooney.  Whether abeam or at the FAF, you should do three things in order: Prop, Gear, Flaps (first notch), in fairly rapid succession.  Building that habit will always keep you safest and results in slowing the airplane down enough for each of the next steps.

After my dad had a gear-up landing, his insurance insisted I fly with him on a permanent basis.  I noticed that since the C-210 had a higher flap speed (first notch) than gear speed, he would operate the flaps first, then not be consistent about what he did next; either Prop, Gear, or second notch of Flaps.  Even with his 5000 hours, the problem is that any distraction might throw off your habit pattern when you do not have a rock-solid pattern drilled into your brain.  That is why I insist my student always use that order, especially in Mooneys.

In my C, flaps are 125 mph and gear is 120 mph. I use flaps to slow down, and gear to descend. The Owners Manual says to not fly at or below 90 mph without flaps. So my goal VFR is flaps down NLT pattern entry, and (per the Manual), gear down abeam my intended point of landing, then reduce power as needed.

For IFR, set power for the altitude prior to IAF (usually either 23"/2300 or 22"/2400), then reduce throttle to 105 mph and set Takeoff Flaps as I get close. When either reaching the FAF or crossing the fix or being 1-1/2 dots from glideslope intercept, drop gear and she will settle into descending right on slope.

For the long body crowd, things are likely different, but this works well for me and my little C.

[kortopates]

Let’s not get too much of the opinion that there is a set order as to whether gear or flaps should come down first as it’s entirely model specific set by the Vy speed limitations.
As @Hank just pointed out in the C models the flaps speed is higher than gear speed so flaps will be used to help slow to gear speed. But at least starting by the midterm J models that reverses and gear speed is higher than flap speed so the gear will be used first. As models get younger the gear speeds get higher and higher to ~140 kts while flap speeds remain the same near ~110 kts. So with the late Mooney’s there is a very sizable buffer between gear and flaps speed.
As always it depends on your v speeds.


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Edited November 12, 2024 by kortopates
corrected F to J

[Rusty Pilot]

On 11/8/2024 at 4:49 PM, RescueMunchkin said:

I think my point is that I don't understand how gear ups can happen with the alarm blaring that loudly.  I have to pull my power much lower than 16" MP to get my plane slowed down enough for the 94mph gear extension speed and stay at TPA - I don't have a switch adjustment issue.

I can hear my alarm, but it is not particularly loud and I can see how it could be missed.  A gear up is my biggest fear. 

[MikeOH]

56 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Let’s not get too much of the opinion that there is a set order as to whether gear or flaps should come down first as it’s entirely model specific set by the Vy speed limitations.
As @Hank just pointed out in the C models the flaps speed is higher than gear speed so flaps will be used to help slow to gear speed. But at least starting by the F model that reverses and gear speed is higher than flap speed so the gear will be used first. As models get younger the gear speeds get higher and higher to ~140 kts while flap speeds remain the same near ~110 kts. So with the late Mooney’s there is a very sizable buffer between gear and flaps speed.
As always it depends on your v speeds.


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@kortopates

Just an FYI, my 1970 F still has a max flap speed of 125 mph, while the gear is limited to 120 mph.

Maybe the later Fs reversed that, IDK?

[kortopates]

11 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

@kortopates

Just an FYI, my 1970 F still has a max flap speed of 125 mph, while the gear is limited to 120 mph.

Maybe the later Fs reversed that, IDK?

Thanks Mike, yep I should have started with the J's. Plus you have the later F which has the increased gear speed from original F's at 105 mph to 120 mph in 68'

So its really not till the J model that they reversed. J model flap speed stayed at 110 kts but the earliest J's gear extension speed started at only at 104 kts (below flap speed) but soon increased to 132 kts (well above flap speed) before the last topping out at 138 kts (sn 3000 on)

[RescueMunchkin]

3 hours ago, Rusty Pilot said:

I can hear my alarm, but it is not particularly loud and I can see how it could be missed.  A gear up is my biggest fear. 

Again this comes back to my original question about variations in the alarm sound level. My alarm is so loud that I can not imagine anyone being able to gear up the plane. I guess next time I fly I can try to make a recording while at low prop rpm.

[Pinecone]

Even if the V speeds allow it, IMO, it is safer to do gear then flaps every time.  Build in a habit.

USAF was gear then flaps in the aircraft I flew.

[kortopates]

15 hours ago, RescueMunchkin said:

Again this comes back to my original question about variations in the alarm sound level. My alarm is so loud that I can not imagine anyone being able to gear up the plane. I guess next time I fly I can try to make a recording while at low prop rpm.

just check the part # on the Sonalert for the gear horn above your head. There are a lot of different Sonalerts but our Mooney's only take SC-628P for gear and SC-628 for stall and autopilot

[Sue Bon]

On 11/12/2024 at 8:26 PM, MikeOH said:

I can't believe the guy felt the need to touch the curled prop tips like three times!  Didn't seem to believe they were bent!

He's a very experienced flight instructor and apparently a super nice guy. I think that he couldn't believe it happened to him -- or at least with him in the right seat. This was a familiarisation flight into a tricky airport. Notice that there is no chance for a go around. They were both so focused on not messing up the approach that they completely tuned out the gear alarm.

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

This was a familiarisation flight into a tricky airport. Notice that there is no chance for a go around. They were both so focused on not messing up the approach that they completely tuned out the gear alarm

An example of distraction or mission focus. One way to handle it is to drop the gear well before entering the valley while mental capacity is around? one excuse I heard for not doing it is "fuel economy" (for 10min at 90kts, it's about 50 cents saving LOL)

Note that they need gear down at Megeve for drag in TB20, they were too high and fast on that approch: the gear would have helped anyway

I saw something similar with  pilots who are not used to busy untowred VFR airports or complex IFR airspace, the amount of distraction just breaks the normal  "memory, flow, checklist", including putting gear down 

Edited November 14, 2024 by Ibra

[Greg Ellis]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:49 PM, kortopates said:

As @Hank just pointed out in the C models the flaps speed is higher than gear speed so flaps will be used to help slow to gear speed. 


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I am late coming to this discussion but not all C models are created equal.  My 63 C model has a gear speed of 120mph but the flap speed is 100 mph.

[Hank]

1 minute ago, Greg Ellis said:

I am late coming to this discussion but not all C models are created equal.  My 63 C model has a gear speed of 120mph but the flap speed is 100 mph.

There were significant changes to V speeds in '68 - '69 for C, E and F models, when flaps and gear all went electric. 

So model counts, but so does the model year.