Disembarking pax while the engine is running

[NotarPilot]

Any thoughts on this?  Do any of you do this if the passenger is another pilot and knows how to leave the plane or do you shut down every time you are just dropping someone off?

[Jeff_S]

If it's an experienced pilot who I know and have flown with, I'll leave the fan going. That usually just means I've dropped off my safety pilot anyway and am headed home after training. Any time I fly with newcomers to GA, I shut 'er down to be safe.

[PTK]

Shut down each and every time. The unfortunate need only happen once.

[Piloto]

On the early Mooney's (before 201s) the foot step is retractable and will not extend unless the engine is shutdown. Not having the step may lead to a fall when exiting the plane. It is always safer to shut the engine, specially at night.

José

[Piloto]

On the early Mooney's (before 201s) the foot step is retractable and will not extend unless the engine is shutdown. Not having the step may lead to a fall when exiting the plane. It is always safer to shut the engine, specially at night.

José

[231flyer]

I second Allsmiles.  PLEASE SHUT DOWN EVERYTIME.  We suffered a horrible accident just before xmas in the Dallas area. Fortunately the model/fashion blogger lived but she lost an eye and a hand.  

[1964-M20E]

Quote: Piloto

On the early Mooney's (before 201s) the foot step is retractable and will not extend unless the engine is shutdown. Not having the step may lead to a fall when exiting the plane. It is always safer to shut the engine, specially at night.

José

[Steve65E-NC]

Better to shut it down.  If you have problems with "hot-start", get a Skytec NL Starter.  Particularly important if left pilot is  leaving or changing places.  In the late 70's a Dupont heir and rising managerial star, tried to change pilots on the ground in a Mooney with prop running.  Pilot moving over hit the throttle to full.  Airplane accelerated at full power.  Young man, standing on wing, was catapulted into the air and hit the ground with his head, killing him on the spot.  I think I have this story about right.  

[fantom]

The five minutes saved by not shutting down isn't worth the risk ever, IMHO.

Go stretch your legs, get a cold water, use the bathroom, and check the WX. If appropriate give your passenger a big kiss goodbye. 

[Ned Gravel]

I like to take folks flying and if I happen to have a passenger that I am dropping off somewheres, I have to demonstrate to them the same safety exercised up to that point.  They only undo their seatbelt after the engine is shut down.

[rbridges]

Quote: 231flyer

I second Allsmiles.  PLEASE SHUT DOWN EVERYTIME.  We suffered a horrible accident just before xmas in the Dallas area. Fortunately the model/fashion blogger lived but she lost an eye and a hand.  

[231flyer]

Injured model and fashion editor Lauren Scruggs, who lost her left hand and left eye in a Dec. 3 plane propeller accident, has reached a legal settlement with the insurance company for the pilot and the plane’s owner, according to a representative for her attorney.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/lauren-scruggs-reaches-settlement-in-propeller-accident/

[rbridges]

thanks, I hadn't seen the update.  I agreed with her initial reaction.  I felt she deserved more than $200K for the incident if she wasn't warned/instructed by the pilot.

[Immelman]

Quote: NotarPilot

Any thoughts on this?  Do any of you do this if the passenger is another pilot and knows how to leave the plane or do you shut down every time you are just dropping someone off?

[aerobat95]

I would never hot load/unload pax.  Just to much risk. 

[rainman]

God Bless her and I hope she continues in her recovery, but she was warned by the pilot according to reports.  She walked back to the plane to thank him after walking away.  This was at night and the pilot is a family friend showing her the Christmas lights. I think I have this right.  Her life is changed forever, too much risk, and these incidents happen every few years. Shut it down.

[NotarPilot]

Thanks for the advice.  I guess I'm just used to flying helicopters too much where we do hot seating a lot more often.

[kris_adams]

I shutdown everytime.  Thanksfully my J starts right up hot or cold.  My dad had a mooney that was nearly impossible to restart hot so he would not shutdown in almost all cases.

[Bob]

I have only let a passenger (family member) out one time while engine was running.  The passanger followed my instruction 100% and I watched like a hawk.  But I will NEVER DO IT EVER AGAIN!  Just not worth the risk for them or us.

As we all have heard many times "the most dangerous part of flying to driving to the airport."  Why extend the most dangerous leg to include the trip from the plane to the car?

[M016576]

Hmmm.... I know it's difficult to see a turning prop, but with proper warning and instruction, there is no reason why a person can't be disembarked with the prop turning.  To say otherwise would be the same as saying that one shouldn't own a firearm because you could injure yourself.. Or shouldn't own a chainsaw for the same reason.  If you let a passenger out prior to shutting down your engine (or while ANY engine is spinning a prop on the ramp) then please give them a safety briefing.  Of course the devil is always in the details: know you're audience and if they are capable of handling themselves around something dangerous.  An airport ramp is a much more dangerous place than a Walmart parking lot (debatable, I know!)

[N601RX]

It would seem this would be much harder to do on a Mooney than on a high wing.  The pilot would at least have a lot more time to react if the passenger started to walk around the front side of the wing toward the prop. 

[Seth]

I normall would not consider a hot drop off.  I would in very rare cases even consider a hot drop off, I did it once - I will explain.

I was undergoing either a BFR or IPC and need to pick up a paper chart for a long XC the next day.  This was before the IPad and when I owned my former 1967 M20F (yes, I'm sorry to those who know I say former M20F often and as opposed to the Mooney Missile - I just like to be clear in first hand stories - I know I mention the two by name a lot). 

It was just at sunset when I picked up my charts at FDK and headed back to the aircraft.  When I went to start the plane the started did not engage.  I mean nothing - no buzz, no movement whatsoever, as if I didn't even turn and press the key. 

I am based at GAI - Gaithersburg, MD, the instructor is based at W00 - Freeway in Mitchellville, MD, and the plane was dead when we went to start the engine at FDK - Frederick, MD.  Worst case scenario, we get a taxi or call someone to drive out, get us, and then figure it out the next day.  It's only about 18 mile by air and probably 22-26 miles by car from GAI to FDK, mostly freeway.

The good news is that the instructor I was using was also worked for the MSC I use, so we got out of the plane, did some trouble shooting, and determined it was the original solenoid (this was Feb 2010, and the solenoid was from 1966 as my plane was actually one of the first F models build, named a 1967 but actually a 1966), so with dark approaching, we took my crash-bag tools on board, and no joke, simply tapped the solenoid with a hammer a few times, and after each tap, I would engage the starter to see if it would make the buzzing noise and crank a tiny bit. 

After the third or four "tap" we actually got it to work and engage so we touched nothing else, buttoned up the cowling, got in the aircraft, and then started the engine.  By this time it was about an hour after sunset. 

The original plan was to have me fly the instructor back to W00 (freeway) and then I'd fly home to GAI.  Instead, we were now going to land at KGAI, he'd drop me off, and then take the aircraft to Freeway for a new solenoid. 

Upon landing at KGAI, we realized he would be stranded here if we turned off the engine and the solenoid froze up completely.  So, I had him fill out my logbook in the plan with the engine still running, and then we came up with a plan to switch seats, as I was in the left seat, he was in the right seat, and my aircraft only had brakes on the pilot side.

We put on the parking brake, he got out of the plane with the engine running, and walked around to the front of the wing about halfway down and held it in place to act as an extra brake should the parking brake not hold.  We both discussed that we had to make sure we did not hit the throttle while climbing out or climbing in, and if so, reduce it immediately.

Once he was in position, he gave me a thumbs up signal.  I then got out of the aircraft with the parking brake set and the engine running, walked around to the front of the wing where he was standing, took position to hold the front of the wing in place should the brakes fail, and then he left the front of the wing, walked around to the back of the wing, climbed aboard, got in the left passenger seat, and once he had control, he then gave me the thumbs up and I walked to the end of the wing and then gave him a thumbs up once I was clear of the aircraft.  He flew the plane to Freeway and a new Solenoid was installed.

I thought the entire time to stay as close to the leading edge as possible when walking on the front side of the wing and not to get more than halfway down the wing.  We were both pilots, both knew Mooney aircraft very well, and still this maneuver did elevate risk.  Frankly, what we should have done was have him get in the left seat at FDK and then I'd just get out with the prop running at GAI, but we didn't realize that shutting down the engine at GAI may be an issue until after we were on the way.

So, shut down every time, unless for some reason it is determined that it is not prudent to, and then at that point, come up with a plan and have all people aboard understand communication and how to make the plan work so that everyone remains safe. 

I plan to shut down every time - but in this circumstance I did not.  Was getthereitis involved?  Yes on both parties, but we looked at the risks, and made a decision.  Technically, we could have tried handproping, but that's another thread all together.

Take care, 

-Seth