A Cautionary Tale to Prospective New Owners

[good2eat]

“It’s an old story, one you’ve probably heard before” - Naven Johnson

August marks 1 year of ownership of our J.  It’s a fantastic plane.  During the purchase process the seller was terrific, we completed a thorough pre-buy that we converted to an annual.  Flew the plane from Maryland to Oregon trouble-free and we’re able to enjoy the general aviation culture tremendously!

We put 27 hours on the clock from checkout through arrive at home.  Since arriving home, we have only been able to put 2.3 hours on the clock.

Do to a non-movement prop strike (entirely my fault) that caused enough damage to the prop to require a tear down inspection (prop had to be removed for repair, necessitating the tear down) the plane has now been down since October of last year.

The delay is primarily due to the scarcity of parts.  Prop came back repaired and overhauled without a hitch.

Engine was removed and delivered to the engine builder.  Due to workload, the disassembly didn’t take place for a 8 weeks.  Once disassembled, the case was found to be fretted so it was sent off for repair.  Turns out the fretting was beyond spec for repair so a new case is needed.  Calendar continues to march forward and we wait for a case.  Finally in June a case comes available (A3B6D cases are hard to come by these days).  We actually ended up going with a roller case jetdriver Byron had after all the waiting.

Once the case issue was handled, the engine shop notified me the cylinders were out of spec due to corrosion, the oil pump had something go through it that scored it up precipitating the need for replacement, one of the oil back lines had been cut by something, the crank is fine but the gear and 1 idler  are pitted to the point of replacement, cam has to be replaced (was a part of the decision to go with the roller case), accessory cover has issues needing replacement.  Not sure if this is everything yet. 

Needless to say, this has turned nearly into the worst case scenario for a new owner.  With a mid-time engine showing reasonably regular use, we expected to have some time to prepared for additional investment -guess not.

Those who know me well, know I always look for the silver lining.  I believe in nearly every circumstance there is a silver lining - sometimes you gotta look damn hard, but there is always one to be found.

For us, the silver lining is we weren’t in the air when something broke loose.  And, once through this, we should have a safer airplane for a while (fingers crossed!).

I write this post as an example of what can happen and to, unfortunately, prove what many here say about being prepared to put significantly more money into a plane the first few years of ownership.

Sometimes it’s the luck of the draw, you can do everything possible to eliminate the “big” issues via thorough inspections.  Sometimes you do all that and still get bit.  One thing I want to make sure is clear - no “blame” falls on anyone - it just is, what it is.

For everyone looking to get into plane ownership - don’t let this scare you away, rather keep it in the back of your mind that it CAN happen and prepare accordingly.

Not sure when we’ll be back in the air but dreaming of it every day.  Even with this setback, our passion for general aviation has not waned one bit!

[rturbett]

Thank you- your timing is perfect. I’m in the market for my first Mooney

Rob

 

[DCarlton]

Gotta ask.  How does one damage a prop in a non movement scenario to require an engine tear down ?   And what is case “fretting”?   Doesn’t help much but I spent the first couple of years working on my F before I could turn the key and enjoy it.  

Edited August 31, 2023 by DCarlton
correct typo

[Bartman]

@good2eat thank you for your honest writeup.  Aviation is not for the faint of heart, both in the air and sometimes even on the ground.  I had a similar experience with case fretting discovered in January 2020, and I paid dearly for a used case.

If you remove a cylinder or split the case on a Lycoming IO-360 that has been in service for a long time, be prepared to find more than you bargained for.  If I ever do this again, it will be a Lycoming exchange.

[Z W]

It's been a rough couple of years to be a piston aircraft owner.  Parts and labor are both hard to come by when your plane needs something.  Put the plane in for annual in 2022 and didn't get it back in the air for 6 months. 

Just got it out of annual for 2023.  Took 8 weeks.  Not the shop's fault.  They fixed a lot of things, and there was quite a bit of waiting on parts.  Had to go straight from there to the avionics shop for an autopilot servo.  Got one of the bad early GFC500 ones, apparently.

I've been reminding myself lately this is not the norm.  Been flying for over 10 years and the last two have been the worst in the maintenance and parts department by far.  It will get better.  

Sorry to hear you've had a bad introduction to airplane ownership.  Hope it gets better for you too.

[Pinecone]

As a counterpoint, I just finished the first year of owning my Mooney M20K 252/Encore.

During the pre-buy, they did find pitted lifters (thanks to Byron to have them checked).  Seller paid for new lifters.  And I have had some issues with the autopilot (light failed, issues with the altitude pre-select, now interface between Aspen and autopilot).  But those have been pretty minor.

I put 116 hours on mine from the day I first flew it.  Longest leg was 7 hours flying time.

No real surprises at the first annual.

Most of the expenses have been optional upgrades.  And more to come.

Just showing that not all purchases are sad stories.

[Echo]

Sorry to read about your tale.  They are, unfortunately. super common in general aviation.  Owners let airplanes sit.  Instead of selling they hang on when they are done flying.  Sentimental reasons as well as unrealistic price expectations.  Find and pay for a plane that has been flying or at least that has been well maintained with obvious signs of maintenance upkeep.  Paper swag annuals are easily seen in logs.  Don't go there.  Don't be the one that takes a chance unless you have eyes wide open to costs.That said, I was that guy on first plane and am still flying a Mooney.   

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Gotta ask.  How does one damage a prop in a non movement scenario to require an engine tear down ?   And what is case “fretting”?   Doesn’t help much but I sometimes the first couple of years working on my F before I could turn the key and enjoy it.  

Case fretting is when the two crank case halves move independently (oscillation) of one another. This can cause friction at the the parting flange eroding the mating surfaces. Improper torque of the case bolts is a typical cause. It will eventually cause leaks and create drag on the crank as bore misalignment worsens. 

[A64Pilot]

These are old aircraft, with anything of this age you take your chances. It’s just part of the game. If we were buying 40 yr old cars probably similar results, difference being cost of the parts.

I bought a 19 yr old house, I’ve had to replace the pool heat pump, had to have the house replumbed this year and the roof isn’t going to last much longer. Roof 40K, pool heat pump 4K, replumbing, 10K. 

Flip side to that is I’d guess average Mooney sells for 100 -200K, new similar airplane 1Mil. 

As a mechanic my guess is that likely the majority of flying engines if torn down will require parts as there will be some out of limits, now they continue to operate fine, but once a Certified mechanic disassemblies anything and finds non airworthy items they can’t put those parts back into an engine or airframe. I’ve had arguments with a few on this forum saying there is no requirement to inspect, they expect me to put beer googles on and not look at anything, but there is no way that I or any other competent mechanic would do that.

If I were you I would have a talk to the engine builder of how much more would it cost to call it an overhaul, and reset the overhaul clock.

But this is the exact scenario I try to get people to listen to that have to borrow money to purchase a 40 yr old airplane. 

[A64Pilot]

8 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Gotta ask.  How does one damage a prop in a non movement scenario to require an engine tear down ?   And what is case “fretting”?   Doesn’t help much but I sometimes the first couple of years working on my F before I could turn the key and enjoy it.  

Close the hangar door on it, or tow it into something, hit it with your car, tug whatever.

The definition of prop strike is surprisingly minor, if for example your a float plane and a wave comes over the float and the engine RPM sags with no visible damage, that’s a prop strike, or Anything that requires the prop to be removed for repair.

But some aren’t done, been years ago but I saw a 172 at Sun-N-Fun taxing in rough ground at high taxi power, nose wheel dropped into a hole, prop hit the ground sand and grass went flying, engine stopped immediately.

I started walking over there to talk to the pilot, but before I got there people had drug the nose gear out of the hole, pilot jumped in, started it and off they went.

I’m assuming a rental. I didn’t run the N number, but was shocked to see that

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Close the hangar door on it, or tow it into something, hit it with your car, tug whatever.

The definition of prop strike is surprisingly minor, if for example your a float plane and a wave comes over the float and the engine RPM sags with no visible damage, that’s a prop strike, or Anything that requires the prop to be removed for repair.

But some aren’t done, been years ago but I saw a 172 at Sun-N-Fun taxing in rough ground at high taxi power, nose wheel dropped into a hole, prop hit the ground sand and grass went flying, engine stopped immediately.

I started walking over there to talk to the pilot, but before I got there people had drug the nose gear out of the hole, pilot jumped in, started it and off they went.

I’m assuming a rental. I didn’t run the N number, but was shocked to see that

Starting the engine with the tug still attached or detatched but still sitting in front of the prop has to be the number one reason.  When I first owned my Mooney I saw a mangled prop sitting at my A&P and they explained that the owner got the plane started and pulled forward into the gasoline powered tug.  After that I bought a bike flag and mounted it on the handle bars of my tug so I can easily see it from the pilot's seat if I ever leave it attached.

[PT20J]

 

 

[Yetti]

this is why I say engines are a crapshoot.  and pulling cylinders on a pre buy is silly.      It does not sound as if anything was found that would have made it come apart in the air.   The good news is that you will have a mostly new engine to fly behind for a good while.

[Rusty Pilot]

Purchasing an older aircraft is a big risk even with a good pre-buy inspection.  I have been lucky.  I actually picked an aircraft that has always been flown regularly and bough it after it had been repaired properly from a gear up landing.  My goal was finding a high-quality hangar kept airplane flown at least weekly.  I do realize that i was lucky and you don't know what you don't know, and surprises can happen.  I have 5 years under my belt with it now and only expected repairs and reasonable annual inspections.  I have participated in an owner assist annual which was a great learning experience.  When fixed you will have a great plane.

[DCarlton]

Threads like these seem to convince me over and over again to keep flying my '67 and be happy. Just forget about a newer 30 year old airplane.  It's so nice to be able to turn the key and go.  If only I had a big hangar and room for two airplanes for a while... 

[Schllc]

I think your attitude is what makes the difference.

preparing by having the right expectations makes all the difference. 
This may make you feel better….

I bought an Aerostar in august of 2022 and flew it directly to the shop for for avionic upgrades.  It still is not complete and insurance has become a real problem for this plane and me.  An entire year… and they told me it would be four months. 
Here is the best part, no real surprises or problems, just people not caring about how it affects the customer. 
I prepared myself for this mentally, and know I will enjoy it when it finally makes it home..

[gmonnig]

On 8/31/2023 at 5:06 PM, Schllc said:

I think your attitude is what makes the difference.

preparing by having the right expectations makes all the difference. 
This may make you feel better….

I bought an Aerostar in august of 2022 and flew it directly to the shop for for avionic upgrades.  It still is not complete and insurance has become a real problem for this plane and me.  An entire year… and they told me it would be four months. 
Here is the best part, no real surprises or problems, just people not caring about how it affects the customer. 
I prepared myself for this mentally, and know I will enjoy it when it finally makes it home..

Oooo, an Aerostar would be so cool. I've never flown one but I heard they handle so well. I am thinking of making the jump to a twin. For some reason, it's terrifying and stressful. I fell like aircraft ownership should be fun. 

[kortopates]

On 8/30/2023 at 7:32 PM, good2eat said:

For us, the silver lining is we weren’t in the air when something broke loose.  And, once through this, we should have a safer airplane for a while (fingers crossed!).

Really sorry to read about your tale. But nothing you mentioned; neither the cam nor fretting case and especially not corrosion in the cylinders would have led to catastrophic failure. Maybe the oil pump gear was the bigger concern - hard to say. You mentioned mid time engine but didn't mention years since last major OH, but calendar time is just as important since corrosion is the number one killer of our GA engines. So if the engine was say 20 years old, I wouldn't expect to see it last another 20 years or make TBO for that matter, but a worn down cam would just start to make the engine anemic. The fretting case would lead to oil leak that would grow in time but not dangerous. Eventually an owner would get tired of feeding it lots of oil and cleaning it off. I had a mechanic friend with a Mooney that let his go till it was loosing a qt an hour - it was the cleaning the mess that finally inspired him to repair.

Perhaps the silver lining is that insurance is paying for the tear down inspection and re-assembly and part of the prop so that your cost is hopefully limited to the new replacement engine parts and prop betterment. i.e. a fresh overhaul at a greatly reduced cost. (Unless you elected to not use your insurance - which these days there are good reasons to do that.) But yeah, sorry about the horrible delays, we haven't at all recovered from the delays from the pandemic. I hope though you're really looking forward to much brighter days of aircraft ownership with knowledge that you'll resume flying with a fresh major overhauled engine (I assume you elected to make it a full overhaul).

I can say in my case I've been an owner of my current Mooney for over 20 years. I bought the most expensive one out there at the time because it had nice avionics and a fresh engine and I am past TBO now and still going strong. 

[MIm20c]

Stay positive, ownership is just getting started. Good news is you probably got over $30k for the insurance that you just started paying for.  That’s a pretty hefty discount on overhauling a 20 year old engine. Also if you look back in your logs you might find the case or even the cylinders have over 6k hours on them, good parts to update as well.  Keep you head up and stay alert from when the hangar opens until to put it to bed after the flight. 

[M20F]

I have written this about 100 times on this forum.  Airplane ownership is always about 30 seconds away from a new engine.  If you don’t $30K to toss after purchase, probably a lot safer renting.  

This isn’t to imply that an incident happens right after ownership as the OP had but it can and often it happens when least expected. 
 
I bought my F with a planned overhaul that went to plan.  I didn’t plan to essentially do it again 3yrs later when the block cracked.  

[N201MKTurbo]

12 hours ago, M20F said:

I have written this about 100 times on this forum.  Airplane ownership is always about 30 seconds away from a new engine.  If you don’t $30K to toss after purchase, probably a lot safer renting.  

This isn’t to imply that an incident happens right after ownership as the OP had but it can and often it happens when least expected. 
 
I bought my F with a planned overhaul that went to plan.  I didn’t plan to essentially do it again 3yrs later when the block cracked.  

I have had two cracked cases in my M20 F. The first one cost $4000 to repair and the other cost $7000 to repair. Most of the cost was the case work. No need to overhaul the engine. In both cases I had them replace the main bearings and the rings.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have had two cracked cases in my M20 F. The first one cost $4000 to repair and the other cost $7000 to repair. Most of the cost was the case work. No need to overhaul the engine. In both cases I had them replace the main bearings and the rings.

Curious about the $3K delta…just inflation or ?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

Curious about the $3K delta…just inflation or ?

One case was able to be repaired and the other time I had to find a used case and get it overhauled.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I run a Heavy Duty Truck Dealership with three different departments providing service work.  I can't fathom a shop tearing down your engine, especially with the parts availability we are dealing with in today's world, and not inspecting every component that might need replacement or repair at the time of the initial tear down?  Finding the need for more parts this late in the game in my business would be a real issue with ME and MY CUSTOMERS. 

We had a local A&P / IA open his own shop about 25 years ago.  He performed pretty good maintenance and I believe the turning point on his business (no longer growing, actually declining) was his customer base realizing what my mom schooled me when I was young, with asperations to be a business man.  She said knowing your skill or trade is important, but if you don't know and are committed to all other aspects of business management (financials, handling your money and credit properly, dealing with customers and marketing, managing people, keeping your eye on every aspect of your business) your likelihood of being a statistic in 5 years is very strong.  Back to my example.  This mechanic completed an annual inspection on a very old, yet nice looking, Travel Air.  During the inspection he found a lot of minor, non-airworthy issues that the owner agreed to pay for, knowing the growing amount of his costs were becoming a stretch on his budget and the actual value of the airplane, but feeling it was time to address those items.

As the Annual dragged out over many months, and the owner applying pressure to get his plane completed, he finally gave the mechanic a deadline he had to have the plane finished for business he needed to conduct.  Seeing the squawk list, it was clearly doable, and should have been done much before this time had the mechanic not taken on more work than he could complete within his schedule.  Two days before the deadline, as the mechanic was completing all the paperwork, he found AD's on both props, requiring replacement at a tune of over $10k each!  The owner was LIVID.  Why were these AD's not reviewed at the beginning of the annual?  He could have deferred all the elective maintenance and still been in budget with his annual.  He ended up selling the plane after it was completed.

We need to be the manager of our maintenance!  Ask questions, research and understand what you are having done with your plane.  Don't expect every shop to have the foresight to be prudent enough to ensure they do everything within their power to review things that might cause further delay down the road.  I have a great relationship with my local FBO/Maintenance shop.  But I also do 90% of my maintenance and the shop owner and shop management understand that.  I know, without question, they are on high alert when they work on my plane.  I WILL hold them accountable to work on my plane at the same level of expertise, efficiency, and accountability as I provide MY customers in the Class 8 Truck Industry.  There is nothing wrong with being proactive in your maintenance.  

Tom

[Dick Denenny]

This story is almost identical to mine. They are almost done with it to the tune of about $75k less the 36 the insurance paid. 10 months without the plane. Dick