More Maintinance B$

[Austintatious]

So, the other day flying home I have a vacuum pump failure.  I send the airplane to a shop, because you know, the FAA wont allow me to do this sort of work myself...

Shop does the work, I haven't seen the bill yet... probably 1 AMU.  They scared the hell out of me to, texted me while I was high as a kite on Nitrous oxide, getting a root canal at the dentist office asking "was it not getting any oil pressure either?  We started it and no oil pressure" ... talk about ruining a good time.  Anyhow they were probably looking at the wrong gauge since they texted back 10 min later to say it was fine now.

Anyhow, I go to the airplane to take a trip.  Its home base with a long runway so I do what I normally do and only go partial power (35/35) for takeoff.  Although as I get to about 34 inches, I feel a resistance in the throttle.  I'm already about to flying speed and still have plenty of power so I continue on... Maybe I Should I have aborted or returned to the field.  Aborting arguably might have been more dangerous.  If the runway had been critical I would have had to (continue).    Coming back to the field wouldn't have been any safer than continuing, it may have prevented the second part of this story, but would have delayed my departure, which was a tad bit pressing. I was pretty sure I knew what was going on.

Anyway, I get to where I am going and take care of business and when I can I go open the cowl.  I find that they have routed the vacuum line off the pump right in the way of the throttle linkage.  Ok I think, no big deal, I'll just re route the hose.  I see that the 90 degree elbow needs to be turned to a different angle coming off the pump to allow for a better hose routeing.  Well, these guys tightened the living dickens out of the fragile pipe and the portion with facets was well rounded off, so I cant get the thing to budge.

At this point I call these guys... and express my dissatisfaction, politely.  In doing so I told him about the elbow being rounded off.  He tells me to hang on and he speaks with the mechanic, who tells him that "it was already pretty rounded off when I worked on it"... And this was for some reason suppose to make me feel better?  I ask why if it was so bad was it not replaced instead of putting a problematic one onto a brand new pump.

 I ask him to offer any advice on what the hell to do to get this off... He gave me a few ideas..... And then cautioned ME about routing the hose because " it might interfere with something" ... good advice... he should probably give that to whatever mechanic did the work!

Anyhow, I was able to hammer a 17mm box end wrench down onto the striped facets and get the damned thing loose... I then cut about 2 inches of hose off and was able to set a good angle for the elbow and have a good route for the hose... all good and the throttle went all the way in.

I post this a week after a thread about maintenance and floating the idea of making maintenance on these old aircraft the same as on experimental.  What use was it in this case to have a maintenance shop mess this up, charge me 3-500.00 in labor to do so, Send an aircraft with a hidden flaw back to the owner to be flown and then said owner having to spend 2 hours messing with this on the ramp with borrowed tools anyway?  I could have done the damned job myself from the get go.

 

This is a common theme... Either I cannot find maintenance or when I do the work is sup par.   The rules need to change, I am so very sick of this... I STILL have gouges in my cowl from a mechanic letting my aircraft fall off a spinner jack...  Incomplete annuals from even MSC's.  Having to hunt down and hound people for logbook entries.  Parts being broken and then not replaced ( grease fittings on landing gear),  Wrong nose tire being installed resulting in super sensitive steering,  Turbo oil line being improperly routed after turbo change, causing it to chafe through from rubbing from vibration....  The wrong %$^&  DAMNED propeller being installed on one of my aircraft!!!    ARG!!!  YES, all this and more has happened to me in 2 years of aircraft ownership! 

Rant over... Ill finish by saying,  Collectively I think  owners need to push to have older aircraft be subject to the same rules as experimental as far as maintenance goes.  I plan to figure out who I should write a letter to and do so.  I may go on a tear asking others to do the same.  This is just getting stupid.

 

EDIT: added (continue) for clarity

Edited June 27, 2023 by Austintatious

[MoonFlyer68]

I feel your pain.  I had 2 AV-30'S installed at a shop and everything powered up and tested great. The airspeed and altitude on the AV-30'S are not primary so during my takeoff roll my scan was mainly engine instruments and airspeed. Once flying i realized I had no airspeed on the AV-30'S and the altitude was way low. Come to find out, they swapped the pitot and static lines.

Having said that, I just don't ever see the FAA giving us the same privilege the experimental community has when it comes to maintenance.

[Dialed In]

I am glad your flight was successful and I also feel your pain. This last annual every single item the shop touched there was something wrong with. The list is too long to type out here and I won’t bore everyone with those problems but that’s the main reason I have been doing everything I can under supervision.  I’m a mechanic by trade and this issue is certainly not limited to aviation.  I typically remove the cowls from the plane and look over everything that was touched after maintenance for this reason. Stay safe I don’t see this issue getting any better. 

[Joshua Blackh4t]

It makes me feel glad that I have a good mechanic. Very rarely have an issue, and not a major one.

Its a nice feeling when over water or bad country.

Too bad he's always busy, but good for him.

 

 

Its every industry, its a lose-lose, because if they are stricter on making sure mechanics know what they are doing, then we will run out of mechanics. Also, where would you find someone who can properly asses an aircraft mechanic? There just aren't the people to do it.

Deregulating it would help in the short term, but there are many horror stories from experimental. Maybe deregulate it a little bit for non-structural?

The problem is there are more and more people who are only consumers and less intelligent people who can do physical things.

Possibly we need a government scheme of a guaranteed paycheck and subsidy for technicians, so we can get more smart people into it. 

[MBDiagMan]

Are you saying that after maintenance, you did not look around under the cowl and do a quick flight around the patch before taking off for a distant destination or did I miss something?

[Danb]

We should start a new section

mechanical errors after maintenance 

state what was done, give a rating and review of the work. Satisfactory or not. Five stars or less.

Name the shop.  Honestly critique the work, time line etc.

Our membership could use valuable honest assessments of maintenance. It may have an effect on the quality of work that’s done. 

[Z W]

Have had your same experience, many times.  Also now doing as much as possible myself.

It sounds good in theory to inspect the shop's work before takeoff.  The reality is different.  Removing and re-installing the lower cowl of a K-model is a 2-person job that takes some time.  Asking them to leave it un-cowled and sitting in the shop until you can inspect it, then waiting while it's re-cowled, is inconvenient and requires you to be able to run down there on short notice and for them to stop working on another plane and go back to yours.  And it's sitting in their shop taking up space after they're done working on it.  With shops as busy as they can be, how long would they even put up with that? 

In short, you have to trust them.  Many shops are short on help and have untrained people doing work "under supervision."  It's a recipe for disaster that's going to kill some people.

I don't have a short term answer, other than today I'm flying the plane 2 hours to a big name MSC for annual and taking that business away from a smaller local shop.  Hoping for a better result.

Long term, I would pay higher shop rates for good reliable work.  I would do more work myself if it were legal, using proper maintenance manuals and techniques and parts.  I would worry a lot about buying a certified plane another owner had been maintaining himself or herself.  Not sure at all it's a good universal solution.

[GeeBee]

It is axiomatic. The most dangerous airplane in the world is the one that just has work performed. Especially if it involves assembly or disassembly of controls either airframe or engine. I just was reviewing an accident in Spain where an Embraer 190 nearly crashed because the ailerons were routed backwards. Being a highly electronic airplane the ECAM said, "FLT CNTRL NO DISPATCH". The mechanics could not get the message to clear, so they replaced all 4 computers and the message cleared, (no memory) and the airplane went on line. In another case I know of a mechanic mis-assembled the control rod to the trim tab on a DC-8 and it crashed near Sacramento killing all three crew members. So the problem is not limited to GA. It just seems that way because there is less inspection function. Then of course we had that Navajo in NC that crashed after the paint shop, due to trim tab mis-rigging. 

Always look at the work performed, before they close it up...if you can. If it involves control work  on the controls, review carefully the work, the manual and the inspection of the work. When I have work performed, like my recent tank re-seal, I will often call my regular IA and pick his brain on a proper pre-flight and functional check before flight. You need to think ahead of the time picking the airplane up on the proper protocols based upon the work done.  I used to have to do functional check flights on 737NGs after they replaced the elevators due to an AD. I was a real PIA because I would make the people who actually did the work and inspect the work sit down with me and review their work cards. Then we would all go to the airplane, power up the hydraulics and do a functional check per the MM with me observing.

If you don't have a MM and PM to your airplane, get one. Be intimately familiar with what is going on with respect to the maintenance performed.

[Boilermonkey]

Many mechanics aren't pilots and vice versa.   Even though I am learning more and more about my machine, I'm not a mechanic.  I agree that making the rules for 10+ year old aircraft and experimentals the same makes sense.  Even if that is done, we still need quality A&Ps who can do the work correctly the first time. 

If the cowl is off and I can spot a problem, then we have a real problem in GA maintenance.    ...and we do...because I've found plenty of problems.  I don't want to become a mechanic, but do I need to in order to be safe?  It's crazy.

[Danb]

GB i don’t know what a PM. MM   Unless it’s the maintenance manual and parts manual..dah 

[Utah20Gflyer]

I think rather than converting the rules to the same as experimental we should get it changed to the same as LSA where by getting a certain amount instruction you can perform additional maintenance functions.   Say take a six month class as night where they instruct you on proper maintenance procedure to do certain functions.  After the class you are tested for competency and if found competent given authority to do that type of work on any plane you own.  Maybe split classes into different competencies like engine, landing gear, avionics, sheet metal, inspection, etc.  

An A&P would essentially be the commercial certificate for repair work.  Then link the two so with enough owner repairman instruction and experience you can obtain the A&P.  
 

Being both very mechanical and having a lot of humility about my capabilities I think I could safely operate in a Wild West maintenance scenario, but at the same time knowing my limitations I would desire more knowledge and structure for that process which the above described program would provide. 
 

[RoundTwo]

2 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I think rather than converting the rules to the same as experimental we should get it changed to the same as LSA where by getting a certain amount instruction you can perform additional maintenance functions.   Say take a six month class as night where they instruct you on proper maintenance procedure to do certain functions.  After the class you are tested for competency and if found competent given authority to do that type of work on any plane you own.  Maybe split classes into different competencies like engine, landing gear, avionics, sheet metal, inspection, etc.  

An A&P would essentially be the commercial certificate for repair work.  Then link the two so with enough owner repairman instruction and experience you can obtain the A&P.  
 

Being both very mechanical and having a lot of humility about my capabilities I think I could safely operate in a Wild West maintenance scenario, but at the same time knowing my limitations I would desire more knowledge and structure for that process which the above described program would provide. 
 

Agreed. Much like the difference between a private pilot and commercial pilot. I don’t desire to learn how to work on jet hot sections or recover rag planes. I just want to be able to be able to replace an ignition harness or oil cooler, you know, the really hard and tricky stuff that us lay people can’t understand how to do. 

[A64Pilot]

I’m pretty sure that Spanish Embraer landed successfully, but that’s not the point.

Many think they want the maintenance rules to be dissolved, and they may get it, I never for a second thought basic med would happen , but it did, so you never know. I’m certain that a rather large and influential part of the FAA doesn’t want to be accountable for GA, especially older GA aircraft.

However I don’t think you would want the serious drop in value in an aircraft that’s owner maintained, and I bet insurance would sky rocket for those aircraft too.

Canada has I believe some kind of owner maintained program. I know nothing about it except it exists, and I have heard but don’t know that once it’s in that category it’s not coming back, and placing it in that category seriously devalues it, it’s resale value takes a big hit. I think it’s only a few very simple models too, not complex aircraft

[McMooney]

Get it started, find out what congressman, faa official, venue to present it, i'll sign.

how about starting with  extending the annual, my plane is taken apart every year just as i get it working.  How about every 2 years even 3

[Utah20Gflyer]

3 minutes ago, McMooney said:

Get it started, find out what congressman, faa official, venue to present it, i'll sign.

how about starting with  extending the annual, my plane is taken apart every year just as i get it working.  How about every 2 years even 3

What time interval between inspections provides the best safety?  I don’t think I’ve ever seen any data that would provide any guidance on the answer to this question.   It can’t be exactly one year,  the chance of that being the correct answer is statistically very unlikely.   So how do we find the correct answer?  We need to run an experiment!  Maybe different planes on different intervals and then compare the safety outcomes.  Make sure each group contains a range of different types of planes as it might be the case the answer is different for a Cessna 421 than a Cessna 150.  

[GeeBee]

A while back I had the dealer replace the rear tires on my car. The tires are Goodyear run flats, made in Germany and difficult for most tire shops to procure, but the dealer always has them in stock. My car is pulled around and after a cursory check and verifying lugs are secure. I depart. I get a quarter mile down the road and the low pressure sensor activates. Left rear. I take it back and they air it up and my service advisor apologizes profusely. I said, "See you tomorrow". He looks at me confused and I said, "I am sure he aired it up, that is not the problem." Next day I am back. Upon further investigation they visually find a defect in the bead on the tire causing a slow leak. German car, German tires, factory trained mechanic. It is not just GA. 

[A64Pilot]

A LOT of it had to do with younger people just don’t have the mechanical skills they used to. Used to be 30 years ago when I was a Maintenance Officer for 24 Apache Helicopters the farm boys stood out, they knew how to fix things, while the city kids had honestly never held a wrench. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve seen. There are far fewer farm kids than there used to be, that population is shrinking.

When I ran the Assembly line at Thrush I had a very difficult time getting any kind of skilled labor, I remember well interviewing one guy that had on his resume that he was a “sandwich artist” apparently that’s what Subway calls the people who work there, artists  

The number of kids that took Dad’s lawnmower apart and fixed it are dwindling, just as the number of Dad’s that mow grass, the message from the Government is strongly that they need to borrow money and go to College and get a Liberal arts degree, not get their hands dirty turning wrenches. Many honestly think they are going to make a living playing Video games, just as some think they will get rich playing sports.

Evidence if that is Lowes and Home Depot both sales have plummeted simply because believe it or not but many can’t read a ruler or drive a nail, so they a few years ago started classes on the very basic skills, hoping to boost sales, but the younger kids are far less likely to fix the toilet than before, not necessarily because they are lazy, but because they have no idea how or even what tools to use, and they don’t have the tools.

One of my Daughters does all the DIY fixing things in their house, both my Daughters have the ability, but then both can drive a manual transmission car too, it’s astonishing the number of people who don’t even understand very simple basic mechanical concepts.

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by A64Pilot

[GeeBee]

You must have met my step son

[dzeleski]

I've had so many maint induced issues since I bought my J in 2019. Im getting really tired of it. Trim rigging issues, stuck valves after a whole cylinder replacement, pinched intake gaskets, even something as simple as water being sprayed into my static system during a wash during annual. Id be willing to get a rating of sorts to do basic work, but I dont have time to do a full apprenticeship. Ill gladly go somewhere for a week to be certified to at least work on the thing, but I dont have 2 years of time to do it. If I can build a race bike/car to go down the track at 200+ I think I can do most things properly on an airplane.

  

40 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

A LOT of it had to do with younger people just don’t have the mechanical skills they used to. Used to be 30 years ago when I was a Maintenance Officer for 24 Apache Helicopters the farm boys stood out, they knew how to fix things, while the city kids had honestly never held a wrench. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve seen. There are far fewer farm kids than there used to be, that population is shrinking.

When I ran the Assembly line at Thrush I had a very difficult time getting any kind of skilled labor, I remember well interviewing one guy that had on his resume that he was a “sandwich artist” apparently that’s what Subway calls the people who work there, artists  

The number of kids that took Dad’s lawnmower apart and fixed it are dwindling, just as the number of Dad’s that mow grass, the message from the Government is strongly that they need to borrow money and go to College and get a Liberal arts degree, not get their hands dirty turning wrenches. Many honestly think they are going to make a living playing Video games, just as some think they will get rich playing sports.

Evidence if that is Lowes and Home Depot both sales have plummeted simply because believe it or not but many can’t read a ruler or drive a nail, so they a few years ago started classes on the very basic skills, hoping to boost sales, but the younger kids are far less likely to fix the toilet than before, not necessarily because they are lazy, but because they have no idea how or even what tools to use, and they don’t have the tools.

One of my Daughters does all the DIY fixing things in their house, both my Daughters have the ability, but then both can drive a manual transmission car too, it’s astonishing the number of people who don’t even understand very simple basic mechanical concepts.

 

This is what happens when everyone tells their kids they MUST go to college. I was largely gas lit my entire time within school, very very few teachers have ever had a job outside of a school yet they are "preparing" us for jobs outside of school. Doesnt make sense to me and is the reason I dropped out of college. We are going to regret this in the next decade or two. Thankfully my father handed me tools the second I could walk and told me to figure it out. Those same exact problem solving skills are the reason I have a successful career in software engineering.

[OR75]

46 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

A LOT of it had to do with younger people just don’t have the mechanical skills they used to. Used to be 30 years ago when I was a Maintenance Officer for 24 Apache Helicopters the farm boys stood out, they knew how to fix things, while the city kids had honestly never held a wrench. You wouldn’t believe what I’ve seen. There are far fewer farm kids than there used to be, that population is shrinking.

When I ran the Assembly line at Thrush I had a very difficult time getting any kind of skilled labor, I remember well interviewing one guy that had on his resume that he was a “sandwich artist” apparently that’s what Subway calls the people who work there, artists  

The number of kids that took Dad’s lawnmower apart and fixed it are dwindling, just as the number of Dad’s that mow grass, the message from the Government is strongly that they need to borrow money and go to College and get a Liberal arts degree, not get their hands dirty turning wrenches. Many honestly think they are going to make a living playing Video games, just as some think they will get rich playing sports.

Evidence if that is Lowes and Home Depot both sales have plummeted simply because believe it or not but many can’t read a ruler or drive a nail, so they a few years ago started classes on the very basic skills, hoping to boost sales, but the younger kids are far less likely to fix the toilet than before, not necessarily because they are lazy, but because they have no idea how or even what tools to use, and they don’t have the tools.

One of my Daughters does all the DIY fixing things in their house, both my Daughters have the ability, but then both can drive a manual transmission car too, it’s astonishing the number of people who don’t even understand very simple basic mechanical concepts.

 

you are saying there is no App to fix a toilet ???

[LANCECASPER]

On 6/25/2023 at 9:42 PM, Austintatious said:

Anyhow, I go to the airplane to take a trip.  Its home base with a long runway so I do what I normally do and only go partial power (35/35) for takeoff.  Although as I get to about 34 inches, I feel a resistance in the throttle.  I'm already about to flying speed and still have plenty of power so I continue on... Maybe I Should I have aborted or returned to the field.  Aborting arguably might have been more dangerous.  If the runway had been critical I would have had to.    Coming back to the field wouldn't have been any safer than continuing, it may have prevented the second part of this story, but would have delayed my departure, which was a tad bit pressing. I was pretty sure I knew what was going on.

I'm very cautious after maintenance has been done.

It is easy to justify now that aborting take-off may have been more dangerous, and that coming back to the field wouldn't have been safer than continuing, but in making those decisions you are ignoring what your airplane is trying to tell you at that moment. In many crash reports you read that the pilot had some indication that something wasn't right and continued on. I'm glad it worked out for you, but the minute I would have felt resistance in the throttle, I'd be back to idle and taxiing back to maintenance, whether I was pressed for time or not. You do not want a jammed throttle when you're trying to add a little power on final to make the airport. Time to spare - go by air. I'd much rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than the other way around.

Thank you for sharing it with us - I learn something every day on here.

[A64Pilot]

3 minutes ago, OR75 said:

you are saying there is no App to fix a toilet ???

It just happens that there are TV advertisements for that EXACT thing.

Found it, it is an App

 

I don’t know if it’s an App or some kind of subscription thing, but something walks you through how to fix things. A very big problem is lack of knowledge of tools, I bet not one in a hundred kids could read the vernier scale on a micrometer, maybe 10 in a 100 even know what a micrometer even is. People are convinced digital mic’s are more accurate, when they aren’t.

My Wife teaches middle school, has a clock on the wall, most can’t even read a non digital clock. None can write cursive, most can’t do simple math, I mean like what’s 33 and 15, they need their phone for that.

Went to a Dr appt the other day, right outside the UF campus, stopped at a traffic light. College kid is riding a scooter and stopped waiting for the walk light to cross the road. I kid you not, but he took his phone out of his pocket four times to look at it, did something to it once, but couldn’t do without the thing for 15 sec

[A64Pilot]

4 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I'm very cautious after maintenance has been done.

It is easy to justify now that aborting take-off may have been more dangerous, and that coming back to the field wouldn't have been safer than continuing, but in making those decisions you are ignoring what your airplane is trying to tell you at that moment. In many crash reports you read that the pilot had some indication that something wasn't right and continued on. I'm glad it worked out for you, but the minute I would have felt resistance in the throttle, I'd be back to idle and taxiing back to maintenance, whether I was pressed for time or not. You do not want a jammed throttle when you're trying to add a little power on final to make the airport. Time to spare - go by air. I'd much rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than the other way around.

I know, military, but before starting engines we did a flight controls check, which included ALL flight controls, throttles are a flight control, as is the rudder, but who was taught check rudder free and clear? For some reason civilian airplane pilots are only taught check the stick / yoke?

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

My car is pulled around and after a cursory check and verifying lugs are secure. I depart.

Had my pickup at a dealer for LOF.  They brought it around, and I drove out of the parking lot.  Huge crunching/grinding noises.  I turn back into another entrance to the same lot, park, and get the DOM or whatever he is called.  We drive around in a circle because he wants to hear the noise.  He says "Yeah, that's not good".  They pull it back into the shop -- no lug nuts on one of the front wheels.  Not loose lug nuts -- zero lug nuts.  Clearly, the mechanic that is supposed to check the first guy's work was out to lunch.  The General Manager comes flying out of the building with a rental car right behind him, and they hustle me out of there.  They bought me a new wheel.  No charge for anything.  I just wish all maintenance induced failures were so easy to detect.

[Justin Schmidt]

4 hours ago, Danb said:

We should start a new section

mechanical errors after maintenance 

state what was done, give a rating and review of the work. Satisfactory or not. Five stars or less.

Name the shop.  Honestly critique the work, time line etc.

Our membership could use valuable honest assessments of maintenance. It may have an effect on the quality of work that’s done. 

Or just a maintenance/post maintenance experience. Get a log of the good, the bad, and the ugly.