Dual electronic ignition upgrade on a J?

[Kirch56H]

Good morning All-

I'm gonna throw this out and see what the discussion brings. I appreciate any and all of everyone’s input!

I am contemplating upgrading my M20J (IO-360-A3B6D) ignition from the stock Bendix single housing Dual Magneto, to the new Electroair dual electronic ignition replacement upgrade. This system has been recently STC’d for certified aircraft, but has been in use for many many years already in the experimental world. It appears to be a significant upgrade from the traditional (archaic) magneto systems.

To do the upgrade I’ll need to add either a backup battery(TWC has an STC approved unit)  or a standby alternator (would need field approval and 337) as a second source of emergency power.

what are everyone’s thoughts on this? I fly IFR and the redundant backup of power and ignition appeals to me. I’m not a big fan of the dual mag single drive system as it seems like any type of failure would become an emergency real quickly. Am I overly worried about the single drive magneto for no reason? 

I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions, experiences, ideas, etc…. 

This is looking like a significant expense to accomplish and is going to take some work to get approved.

Thanks!

[toto]

10 minutes ago, Kirch56H said:

Good morning All-

I'm gonna throw this out and see what the discussion brings. I appreciate any and all of everyone’s input!

I am contemplating upgrading my M20J (IO-360-A3B6D) ignition from the stock Bendix single housing Dual Magneto, to the new Electroair dual electronic ignition replacement upgrade. This system has been recently STC’d for certified aircraft, but has been in use for many many years already in the experimental world. It appears to be a significant upgrade from the traditional (archaic) magneto systems.

To do the upgrade I’ll need to add either a backup battery(TWC has an STC approved unit)  or a standby alternator (would need field approval and 337) as a second source of emergency power.

what are everyone’s thoughts on this? I fly IFR and the redundant backup of power and ignition appeals to me. I’m not a big fan of the dual mag single drive system as it seems like any type of failure would become an emergency real quickly. Am I overly worried about the single drive magneto for no reason? 

I’d love to hear everyone’s opinions, experiences, ideas, etc…. 

This is looking like a significant expense to accomplish and is going to take some work to get approved.

Thanks!

I was kind of sitting on the sidelines as my days to the 500 hour inspection interval wound down. Ultimately I decided that I didn’t want to be a guinea pig, and I ended up paying $3k for an IRAN on my Bendix dual mag. 

I’m not overly paranoid about the D3000, as they seem to be very reliable when installed correctly, but I’m absolutely in the pro-electric camp and I think I’ll do the Electroair at my next 500 hour. Very interested to hear a pirep if you go this route. 

[jetdriven]

The dual electronic ignition solution for this plane seems more complicated than the Bendix dual mag. 

[toto]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The dual electronic ignition solution for this plane seems more complicated than the Bendix dual mag. 

No doubt that’s true. Magnetos have been around for 100 years and are bulletproof. The Bendix dual mag was too clever by half, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a bad design, and its operational history aiui has been largely without any major issues. 

[cliffy]

I flew dual  mags on Navajos for years and 2,000 hrs of no problems

I IRAN'd them myself in the hangar and never had a problem OR a $3000 bill. A&Ps can do this but won't. 

Mount them properly and always use new lock washers every time any hold down nut is loosened and there should be no problems. 

That was my experience and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.

 

[Ragsf15e]

59 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

There’s nothing wrong with a D3000 as long as it is installed and maintained properly.  I’m at 480 hours right now on the Bendix S4LN magnetos on my M20C and have been tempted by Surefly, but I keep coming back to just IRANing what I have.  In almost 35 years of flying Bendix mags have served me very well, and I really don’t need easier starts or care about saving a half of a gallon per hour.  

I really like the Surefly as it’s a more simple design, but your point is very valid.  One of its best attributes is maintenance free for 2000 hours, but I’ve only had it on for about 350.  It has been trouble free so far and the advance timing provides slightly better ignition at higher altitude cruise.  It was pretty easy to install.  But yes, it’s not a huge improvement from a mag.

[Ragsf15e]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Thanks for that.  I remain very tempted.  I’ll have to decide soon.  

The hard part of installing one is taking out the interior to run a wire directly to the battery.  Otherwise it was pretty easy.  I helped with the interior, but my mechanic just read the directions, installed it and fired it up.  Worked fine.

 The electroair is a whole different animal for install.

[ArtVandelay]

I really like the Surefly as it’s a more simple design, but your point is very valid.  One of its best attributes is maintenance free for 2000 hours, but I’ve only had it on for about 350.  It has been trouble free so far and the advance timing provides slightly better ignition at higher altitude cruise.  It was pretty easy to install.  But yes, it’s not a huge improvement from a mag.

Which mag did you replace with the surefly, left or right?

[Ragsf15e]

8 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Which mag did you replace with the surefly, left or right?

Left.  Ditched the sos.

[GeeBee]

The key question is does the Electroair resolve the redundancy issues of the D-2000/3000 Bendix. The short answer is no. You still have a single shaft turning two units.

The secondary question is what does the future hold. TCM says they will no longer make parts or provide service for the D-2000/3000 and highly reputable magneto servicing companies like Aircraft Magneto Service says they will no longer work on them even though there is PMA parts.

It appears the parts PMA producer is Kelley Aerospace....call me unimpressed when it comes to Kelley.

Given the above I would strongly look at the Electro Air unit especially if you install a second alternator as that can be useful for a whole lot of issues.

[jlunseth]

The beauty of two magnetos is that whether the engine stays running does not depend on the electrical system. There are multiple issues with what you propose. About a year ago I had Lasar put in a 337 to add a standby alternator on my 231. (The currently available standby alternator, the B&C, only generates limited amps by the way, I think it is 20 if I recall correctly.) However, the FSDO would not authorize the 337. What I learned from Lasar is that that the FSDOs generally have cut back on 337 modifications and instead force the A&Ps and owners into the STC route, which is more complicated and expensive. We had a prior 337 for the same modification, by the way, and that did not help. In my plane, maybe yours is different, the backup would go on the accessory pad and that would require removal of the vacuum pump that is already there, which gives the FSDO another reason to reject the 337. You can't just assume that you can wave a wand and will get a 337 today. The other problem is that having the engine continue to run depends on the electrical system remaining intact and there are many ways it can fail other than a bad battery or alternator. Maybe someday a manufacturer will devise an electronic FADEC system that works on GA engines and is approved as part of a system with multiple redundancies, but until then you are the person making up the system and it is not a safe move to start making major modifications like that unless you truly understand what a failure might involve. What if the electrical buss itself fails, certainly unlikely but has happened? Not long ago I had a shop add a Landing Height System that connects to the gear switch. Went out to test fly and the gear switch did not work. Fortunately, the gear was down and never came up instead of the opposite. Turned out there was a bad electrical crimp. Do you really want your life to depend on stuff like that?

[Mufflerbearing]

I installed the surefly on my plane this last winter.  It was super simple and with the costs of rebuilding the mag vs the surefly, it's a no brainer.  No more 500 hour inspections etc.  My plane already has dual batteries and dual alternators but I really wanted to install a cb because if that fuse popped that is next to the batter in flight, there is no way to fix it.  I learned that the amp draw is so slight compared to the fuse, the only way it would pop was a short.  I had removed the vacuum system but left the hose that went from the tail cone to the front which made a perfect conduit for the electrical wire so no chance ever of a short.  I'm happy with the surefly and recommend it.

[Kirch56H]

So the Electroair system has 2 independent systems per their information. One unit goes into the current mag drive and the second unit goes into the front of the motor and operates via an added on crank trigger unit. Essentially it is 2 fully independent systems that share no common parts like the current dual drive mag.   
 

I have gone to a glass panel system already so I the vacuum system was removed several years ago. I have the open mounting pad where the vacuum pump used to live where I could mount the standby alternator system from B&C. Yes it is a 20 amp alternator but per B&C, it will put out more (up to about 35-40amps) but should be limited to 20 amps. 
 

I believe the alternator would be much better than a 3ah or 6ah backup battery which would just run the electronic ignition vs the backup alternator which would power the essentials on the panel along with the ignition system so you could fly more confidently to an adequate airport/repair shop.

this upgrade would add weight back to the plane and decrease useful load by a bit 

[hammdo]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

The beauty of two magnetos is that whether the engine stays running does not depend on the electrical system…

I agree here. I have 1 SureFly and one Magneto. My alternator failed and I was on battery at that point, 11.7 volts. I declared (on IFR flight) and got in while still enough battery. When I spoke to the FSDO investigator, he said I did the absolute right thing and then proceeded to tell me about several all electric mag replacement accidents he covered (both mags replaced). He agreed having one mag not requiring a operating charging system was a good idea. Dual alternator/batteries may be different.

-Don

[Will.iam]

15 minutes ago, Mufflerbearing said:

I installed the surefly on my plane this last winter.  It was super simple and with the costs of rebuilding the mag vs the surefly, it's a no brainer.  No more 500 hour inspections etc.  My plane already has dual batteries and dual alternators but I really wanted to install a cb because if that fuse popped that is next to the batter in flight, there is no way to fix it.  I learned that the amp draw is so slight compared to the fuse, the only way it would pop was a short.  I had removed the vacuum system but left the hose that went from the tail cone to the front which made a perfect conduit for the electrical wire so no chance ever of a short.  I'm happy with the surefly and recommend it.

i agree with surefly cost being a no brainer if you are needing to overhaul a mag anyways. And in addition to all the pluses above my mag is pressurized for when i fly high that the surefly does not require so the surefly offers another layer of security in that if I’m at altitude and the mag starts misfiring because the pressure failed i can shut it down and still get to an airport on the surefly. Also on the other hand if for some reason i lost both alterations and ran down my battery i can still fly to an airport on my one mag. I have experienced zero negatives from adding a surefly and benefited from actual noticeable better starting, lower smoother idling and half a gallon less fuel burn at cruise. I have no regrets and would add it to any other plane in a heartbeat. My neighbor just added sureflys to his baron twin and enjoys over a gallon per hour less fuel burn. He did get the first verson of surefly and had problems until surefly sent him version 2 of the surefly like i have and then he did have any issues. Make sure you get the second version. 

[KSMooniac]

The Electroair system is actually more redundant than the stock D3000 system. Two separate triggers/timing and two sources of power. Yes, if you lose your alternator or the battery suddenly fails in flight, you'll need to divert and land sooner rather than later compared to a stock mag, but that is the only downside IMO except installation cost. Not paying for 500 hr inspections and mag overhauls should pay that back, though, if you keep it long enough.

I bought a kit but haven't installed yet. Hopefully after a paint job in a couple of months... I'll try to be diligent and record the details, hours of labor, and any performance improvements.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Does anyone have a part number or a link to the Slick half harness you need to add SureFly to a Bendix mag-equipped four banger Mooney?  

I highly recommend using the “Maggie Harness” from New Horizons.

https://www.newhorizonsmaggieaircraftignitionsystems.com
There are two possibilities for harness routing on an io-360.  You should verify exactly which cylinders (top or bottom) your left mag currently fires and then call them.

[KSMooniac]

I’m surprised and sorry to hear you need paint again so soon, Scott.  Your current scheme and colors are one of the prettiest I have ever seen, FWIW.  

Thanks... It's fallout from a ground hail event, and of course I can't leave things as they are so I've been doing upgrades/drag reduction before getting her repainted.

I might change things up a little on colors or scheme, but haven't decided yet. I still like mine, even after 14 years!

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

[toto]

4 hours ago, GeeBee said:

It appears the parts PMA producer is Kelley Aerospace....call me unimpressed when it comes to Kelley.

Fwiw, Kelly is the shop that billed me $3k for an IRAN. 

[Guest]

We’re making this extraordinary mod to improve the plane’s reliability, yet more planes are wrecked daily by the single pilot on board than the dual drive magneto.  Filling each seat with a backup pilot would be a bigger improvement in my opinion.

[Kirch56H]

22 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

We’re making this extraordinary mod to improve the plane’s reliability, yet more planes are wrecked daily by the single pilot on board than the dual drive magneto.  Filling each seat with a backup pilot would be a bigger improvement in my opinion.

I agree that having additional qualified flight crew onboard would make things safer, but even if all 4 seats were occupied by highly qualified and experienced pilots, if/when the stock dual magneto decides to fail in flight, at that point all 4 pilots are looking for an emergency landing location and there’s nothing anyone can do to make the engine run. 

this is the reason I am seeking input and opinions on going to this alternate ignition system route. By having two independent systems, it would build in redundancy and better safety of flight. I’m sure many think that this is overthinking it, but I always operate in the world of contingency planning, redundant backup and safety. After all, two is one, and one is none when the $&@! hits the fan! 

[Niko182]

The pireps I saw on electro airs website said the improvements where pretty large for the bendix mag update.

[carusoam]

Very few electroaire pireps around here still….

The only Ovation one I have seen wasn’t very good, it got removed.

If you have one… write a pirep!

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

1 minute ago, Evan said:

They're real results too... I was skeptical at first but folks aren't lying.

How long til your pirep is out. I’m debating installing a dual Eis mags on my eagle. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Niko182

[KurtWhite]

On 3/25/2023 at 11:02 AM, Will.iam said:

i agree with surefly cost being a no brainer if you are needing to overhaul a mag anyways. And in addition to all the pluses above my mag is pressurized for when i fly high that the surefly does not require so the surefly offers another layer of security in that if I’m at altitude and the mag starts misfiring because the pressure failed i can shut it down and still get to an airport on the surefly. Also on the other hand if for some reason i lost both alterations and ran down my battery i can still fly to an airport on my one mag. I have experienced zero negatives from adding a surefly and benefited from actual noticeable better starting, lower smoother idling and half a gallon less fuel burn at cruise. I have no regrets and would add it to any other plane in a heartbeat. My neighbor just added sureflys to his baron twin and enjoys over a gallon per hour less fuel burn. He did get the first verson of surefly and had problems until surefly sent him version 2 of the surefly like i have and then he did have any issues. Make sure you get the second version. 

Question about your SureFly installation...did you keep the standard plug gap or did you go more?  I also have one on a 252 and wondering which way is most common.