Dead stick instrument approach

[201Steve]

Gentlemen, 

Enlighten me on the procedures for an engine out instrument landing. 
 

As an avid student of emergency scenarios and what to learn from them, I have realized I’ve read a lot of folks talking about shooting an approach in an engine out scenario, in IMC, to safely get down. But, how does that actually look in real life? Perhaps something to practice going forward. I’ve trained partial panel, etc but not for scenario of the fan stopping. 
 

Since you don’t have the option of changing speed or power, what are you aiming for? What are you setting up differently? How are you judging whether or not you’ll “make it”? Capturing a localizer, not as big a deal, as you still have lateral maneuverability. Capturing a GS or What your vertical track should be, another story. What say you?  To me, a ground based localizer Or ILS, a simple lateral and vertical guidance along the extended centerline would be simplest. A bunch of way point sequencing along a GPS approach probably just extra distraction. That being said, the basic “visual approach” with extended centerline and vertical guidance would likely be just as simple or better, I’d think. 
circle as normal over the airport, when reaching ~1,000 feet, capture “localizer” and use the glide path as a guide to how your looking? Maybe aim to stay above GP as long as possible with whatever available tools you have? Prop,flaps,gear, etc. 

[EricJ]

A three degree glideslope is about a 19:1 glide ratio, so I don't think many airplanes are going to be able to fly a precision approach or approach with vertical guidance without engine power. 

[Ragsf15e]

17 minutes ago, EricJ said:

A three degree glideslope is about a 19:1 glide ratio, so I don't think many airplanes are going to be able to fly a precision approach or approach with vertical guidance without engine power. 

Exactly.  It’s unlikely you can make that work out, but you can experiment with hitting the FAF clean at 170mph or so and see how it works.  It’s not easy because you’re already in a bad spot and now you’re changing speeds while trying to remain on a glideslope.  A non precision approach from a higher speed at the FAF MIGHT be possible.  Just dice down to the mda or until you break out and continue visual from there…

[A64Pilot]

We used to say in helicopters that engine out was better at night.

Turn on the landing light, if you don’t like what you see, turn it off, either way your going there.

Came home from church one day to find emergency vehicles by my house, across the street there was a C-210, he had a crankshaft break was trying for the local airport, didn’t make it. Gear up, flaps up landing in a field, was about 800 solid overcast as I remember.

I think what he was trying is the best you can do, try to crash inside the airfield fence, that way the fire truck etc can come straight to you, they don’t have to go out of the gate and start searching.

 

 

[KB4]

May not be listed, but a working engine is required equipment for IFR so no you cannot legally fly the app. 

32 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

engine out scenario, in IMC, to safely get dow

If glide advisor says you will make Rnwy, come in high and land, if not gonna make Rnwy, inform ATC, get ground contact ASAP, Still have ur AI, know what degree gives you want you want.  Set a shallow descent get below and assess your glide distance and landing options.  

[EricJ]

27 minutes ago, KB4 said:

May not be listed, but a working engine is required equipment for IFR so no you cannot legally fly the app. 

Sure you can.   If you've lost all propulsion you're in an emergency situation, so you can fly WTF approach you want.  Not that you actually could achieve it, but you can try it if you think it's your best option.

[201Steve]

33 minutes ago, KB4 said:

May not be listed, but a working engine is required equipment for IFR so no you cannot legally fly the app

Is this a real comment?

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

A three degree glideslope is about a 19:1 glide ratio, so I don't think many airplanes are going to be able to fly a precision approach or approach with vertical guidance without engine power. 

Right, your certainly not aiming for the FAF. Using vertical guidance as a reference, you’re probably hoping to see the vertical CDI needle near the bottom…

[201Steve]

Maybe adding an IMC feature to the Garmin smart glide would set the autopilot to fly continuous 360’s in a confined area over the top of the field for pilot to take control once breaking out. 

[Will.iam]

Well most FAF about 5 nm to the runway so 90kias gives 1.5nm/min or a little over 3 mins and say 20 secs to landing. Most engine out glides with prop control full out gear up gets about 600 vvi? So about 1900ish ft start at FAF. With a headwind standard of 10 knots. I’d give a cushion of and extra 600ft for a nice round number of 2500ft to start the FAF. When you pop out and think you might make it, don’t forget to lower the gear before the flare. Thank god our gear come down quickly. And maybe you’ll make it. 

[ilovecornfields]

The green dot on the G500 synthetic vision is pretty nice. You’ll crash wherever that dot is.

[Boilermonkey]

There's plenty of ways to loose speed and altitude.   I'd dial in an approach preferably ILS, if not RNAV.   Then use the distance glide ring in foreflight to manage my energy, ignoring the glideslope until landing is assured.  

[Ragsf15e]

6 hours ago, Boilermonkey said:

There's plenty of ways to loose speed and altitude.   I'd dial in an approach preferably ILS, if not RNAV.   Then use the distance glide ring in foreflight to manage my energy, ignoring the glideslope until landing is assured.  

Landing is assured the minute it gets quiet .  It’s just how close to a clear place you can get it.  Inside an airport boundary is a great start!

[Boilermonkey]

When the fan in front stops spinning it gets interesting real quick....been there, thankfully day VFR.

[T. Peterson]

18 hours ago, 201Steve said:

Is this a real comment?

Steve, he is making a funny. I personally thought it was hilarious!

Torrey

[jaylw314]

I'd probably go directly to any sizeable airport with an instrument approach if I can, and make about a 1 nm radius circling above the airport at minimum descent rate until I broke out.  Not great, there's no guarantee of being lined up for anything, but if there's a circling approach you figure there's protected area of about 2nm radius.  My chances of breaking out with clear space in front of me is a lot higher than any other strategy I can think of, other than moving to Kansas...

Edited September 11, 2022 by jaylw314

[David Lloyd]

Many years ago, the former editor of Flying Magazine, Richard Collins, wrote not only could an engine out instrument approach could be done successfully, his father had done just that. Don’t remember the details.

[carusoam]

It’s all about energy management…

under ordinary conditions…

we have power in to overcome all of the drag…

Clean up everything…

Set best glide speed…

expect you will run out of energy before you get there…

So keep up the problem solving and checklist stuff…

 

If the ILS glide path was comfortably steep for engine out…

We would be discussing not being able to stay on the glide path because our idle rpm was too high… or everyone would want speed brakes…

 

So… if you lose engine power before reaching the glide slope, or haven’t slowed down yet…

Save all that energy until the end… don’t let any energy get away…

 

Very similar discussion for losing power in the traffic pattern…

But, we can cut the downwind short and proceed direct to the numbers…

There is no short cut for a straight in approach…

keep an eye on every opportunity for success…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[FlyboyKC]

It might be helpful to call out frequent position reports even on Final. That way if you don't make the airport environment the search radius can be reduced effectively increasing your chances of being found sooner than later. 

I would say any engine failure during instrument flight is all about what can be done to increase the odds of survival. 

[Browncbr1]

i've thought about this and decided that I want to do whatever I can to be inbound on the localizer 1.5-2nm from the threshold at 1000agl clean and don't touch gear or flaps until landing assured...   as you get close, but still haven't broken out, if you have a johnson bar, you can let just a little bit of the gear down and modulate drag if needed... if you come up a little short, a couple pumps of flaps will help you float just a little further or balloon over a fence or tree to make the field.  If there's a lot of wind, maybe reduce to 1-1.5nm from threshold.   Hopefully, I've had enough glide time to do some calculations.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

i've thought about this and decided that I want to do whatever I can to be inbound on the localizer 1.5-2nm from the threshold at 1000agl clean and don't touch gear or flaps until landing assured...   as you get close, but still haven't broken out, if you have a johnson bar, you can let just a little bit of the gear down and modulate drag if needed... if you come up a little short, a couple pumps of flaps will help you float just a little further or balloon over a fence or tree to make the field.  If there's a lot of wind, maybe reduce to 1-1.5nm from threshold.   Hopefully, I've had enough glide time to do some calculations.

Basically a high key/low key pattern in IMC intercepting the localizer for horizontal final approach guidance. When you know you have the altitude margin, drop the gear and dive and drive to the threshold. 

[hubcap]

Does anyone really think they could successfully shoot an ILS or LPV approach in IMC without power? I am just curious, because I don’t think I could. 

[Shadrach]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:27 PM, hubcap said:

Does anyone really think they could successfully shoot an ILS or LPV approach in IMC without power? I am just curious, because I don’t think I could. 

It’s not physically possible to fly the vertical approach. Funny that they called it a glide slope given that it would take a glide ratio of about 20 to 1 to glide down the ILS.  

You would need to derive your own vertical guidance to make the runway.

[carusoam]

Falling below the GS, dead stick, in IMC… at 90kias…

Would leave you very low on energy… to expect anything but land on what ever is in front of you, as you break out…

#1 goal… don’t stall the plane.

#2 goal… don’t hit the tree trunk.

#3 goal… if you can’t miss the trunk… take it down the left hand side…. Allowing exit from the plane via the usual door…

 

Now search for some dead stick accidents, of Mooneys, following a glide slope/ILS approach…

 

A stronger defensive position would be to maintain a higher airspeed than best glide… to generate options, for after you break out…

This way, when you see a field over there… you can head that way with whatever energy you have left…

 

There are not a lot of accidents of Mooneys in IMC… some are notable… but, when you run out of fuel… check your pockets for coins and rosary beads…

You don’t have a lot of time for prayers and statistics… 

PP attempt at humor… not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Will.iam]

7 hours ago, Andy95W said:

⬆️⬆️⬆️ This.

Attempting an actual instrument approach, in actual IMC, with a dead engine?  Nuts.

About the only thing that’s going to help is following Bob Hoover’s advice: fly the airplane as far into the crash as you can.  Hopefully your instruments and GPS will let you crash inside an airport boundary where you’ll be less likely to kill innocent people on the ground and more likely to receive prompt medical attention.

Sorry for the bluntness, but luck is going to mean a lot more than IFR skill if this actually happens.  (Luck and 1000’ ceilings.  200’ ceiling and you don’t have a chance.  1000’ ceiling and you stand a chance at finding a survivable crash site.)

I think luck will be more how close you are to an airport and how high when the engine quits dictates how much time to tune in the loc and setup a position to be high on the g/s. Even if you are too high, I’d rather take it off the end of the runway at a speed slower than flying speed into any obstacle.