Mooney down near PIA

[hais]

Appears this was a fuel starvation while the pilot thought they had 10 gallons. I wonder whether the reported fuel remaining was based on totalizer reading. 

Those of you with fancy panels, do you have fuel quantity mismatch warning between totalizer and senders? 

[carusoam]

GU Mooney landings have been noted to be near 200’ ground scrapes…

Maximum braking is a GU landing….

On wheels… Minimum braking occurs above 50ias…. Anything more than light braking, the wheels lock up… while the wings are still providing lift….

Covering a distance near 100’ per second…

If fortunate enough… find the open field, go there…

Streets are going to be filled with everything you don’t want to bump into…. Very low chance of success…   (Mark is our reminder for this logic)

A plane traveling near T/O speed has terrible control… unable to steer or dodge things like sign posts, cars, people, wires…

The Bravo that landed in the street in NJ… the street curved, the bravo scraped to a halt in a front yard/driveway…

In the Bravo’s case… control was lost prior to getting to the street…. (Power on, T/O stall, ran out of runway on a Go-around, pilot survived)

Things to consider prior to flight…

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

15 minutes ago, hais said:

 

Those of you with fancy panels, do you have fuel quantity mismatch warning between totalizer and senders? 

The closest we can probably get….

1) Fuel totalizer…

2) Ceis fuel gauges…

3) GPS tied to either of the above resources…

4) Still doesn’t account for winds aloft…

#s 1&2 above give near 1% accuracy of fuel left in the tank…. When used properly…

#3 is very helpful when wired together properly… GPS, JPI, FT101…

Getting the last drops of fuel available in the tanks…. Level, and slightly nose up…  nose down, has the fuel run away from the pick-up tube….

 

So… some really good data is available.  The pilot is still going to have to go out of his way to know that the data has limitations near the end.

Some Mooneys have a low fuel light that comes on with a small number of gallons left in the tank…

PP thoughts only, not related to this accident… just info to help the discussion to avoid similar topics….

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

On 8/13/2022 at 7:11 PM, toto said:

The photos of the crash site make me wonder why the pilot chose a street surrounded by power lines. Central Illinois is one big grassy field.

Ultimately this feels like a fuel starvation incident, a controlled descent for 30 minutes (with best glide for the last bit as kortopates mentioned above), and then a very inhospitable landing area. 

Replying to my own message just because I'm still scratching my head about this.  The pilot apparently lost power and then spent 30 minutes in a controlled descent.  That's a lot of time to make a decision about a forced landing site and troubleshoot fuel system problems.  It seems hard to believe that with all the green space around, he chose a city street to set down after such a long descent.

I didn't hear the LiveATC recordings, but I saw a note at the beginning of the thread that a controller had suggested a highway as a potential landing site.  Do we think he was gliding the whole 30 minutes thinking that he had Peoria made, and then discovered only in the last few minutes (wind shift, whatever) that the airport was outside glide radius and suddenly had very few good options in range?

[EricJ]

21 minutes ago, hais said:

Appears this was a fuel starvation while the pilot thought they had 10 gallons. I wonder whether the reported fuel remaining was based on totalizer reading. 

Those of you with fancy panels, do you have fuel quantity mismatch warning between totalizer and senders? 

My JPI 900 does this.

[carusoam]

8 minutes ago, toto said:

Replying to my own message just because I'm still scratching my head about this.  The pilot apparently lost power and then spent 30 minutes in a controlled descent.  That's a lot of time to make a decision about a forced landing site and troubleshoot fuel system problems.  It seems hard to believe that with all the green space around, he chose a city street to set down after such a long descent.

I didn't hear the LiveATC recordings, but I saw a note at the beginning of the thread that a controller had suggested a highway as a potential landing site.  Do we think he was gliding the whole 30 minutes thinking that he had Peoria made, and then discovered only in the last few minutes (wind shift, whatever) that the airport was outside glide radius and suddenly had very few good options in range?

Expect a power off glide to average near 1kfpm descent rate… using a close round number… at best glide speed, gear up, prop pulled back…

Gliding for a half hour in any Mooney is highly unlikely, unless starting in the high FLs…

As PIC… having knowledge of where a highway is… is helpful.   Landing next to it is better than landing on it…

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Expect a power off glide to average near 1kfpm descent rate… using a close round number… at best glide speed, gear up, prop pulled back…

Gliding for a half hour in any Mooney is highly unlikely, unless starting in the high FLs…

As PIC… having knowledge of where a highway is… is helpful.   Landing next to it is better than landing on it…

Best regards,

-a-

He had a pretty consistent descent rate from 13k to the ground, so I haven’t been able to figure out where the (possible) fuel starvation occurred. Was it at 13k? Or was it at 2400?

Was his original destination Peoria? Or was that a divert for bingo fuel?

Iirc some of the eyewitnesses said that they heard the engine sputtering, which would suggest that the engine had some power until the very last. (But eyewitnesses aren’t necessarily reliable.)

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

How far does a gear up mooney slide after contact?

My experience...... gear unlocked ( mechanical linkage failure), asphalt runway, flaps fully extended, approximately 65 mph approach speed, calm winds, minimal floating prior to ground contact.....aircraft slid approximately 150 feet before coming to a stop, with only a slight loss of straight forward direction. 
 

This crash is just so heartbreaking.  So very sad for the loved ones left behind.

[carusoam]

9 minutes ago, toto said:

He had a pretty consistent descent rate from 13k to the ground, so I haven’t been able to figure out where the (possible) fuel starvation occurred. Was it at 13k? Or was it at 2400?

Was his original destination Peoria? Or was that a divert for bingo fuel?

Iirc some of the eyewitnesses said that they heard the engine sputtering, which would suggest that the engine had some power until the very last. (But eyewitnesses aren’t necessarily reliable.)

The moment you know you have run out of fuel… is the time to declare your status.

If you know you are low on fuel… you usually communicate this with ATC….

This is a typical emergency, declare early… do not wait.

We won’t know anything about the value of the eyewitness statement…. Our engines make sputtering sounds at low power… ordinarily…

-a-

[toto]

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

The moment you know you have run out of fuel… is the time to declare your status.

If you know you are low on fuel… you usually communicate this with ATC….

This is a typical emergency, declare early… do not wait.

We won’t know anything about the value of the eyewitness statement…. Our engines make sputtering sounds at low power… ordinarily…

-a-

I need to listen to the LiveATC recording - I didn’t realize that he had declared an emergency early. Was that at 13k or at 2400? Or somewhere in between?

[carusoam]

6 minutes ago, toto said:

I need to listen to the LiveATC recording - I didn’t realize that he had declared an emergency early. Was that at 13k or at 2400? Or somewhere in between?

I’m not implying that he did or didn’t…

But… Most MSers would…. Based on conversations regarding declaring an emergency…

and conversations about how much extra fuel we carry depending on the flight….

 

There are four accident types we know we want to avoid…

Two come early in our flying experience, and two come later on…

1) Don’t run out of fuel

2) Don’t fly VFR into IMC

3) Avoid icing

4) Avoid flying into thunderstorms

 

Lots of modern tools to help with these issues… and tried and true methods available for when the dough isn’t available for the tools…

Best regards,

-a-

[toto]

36 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I’m not implying that he did or didn’t…

Ah, okay - I misunderstood. I thought you were saying this was an example where the pilot declared early. 

[toto]

Thanks @1980Mooney, that’s a super helpful analysis.

So at some point between 15.5k and 2.5k, he almost certainly ran a tank dry and switched to the other tank, where he thought he had left 10 gallons of fuel - but in fact, that tank was nearly empty as well.

Hard to know what his fuel quantity indication would be at that point. He must have been very confident to continue the flight. 

I’m still wondering whether the turn around the patch on the 10th was post-maintenance. If so, the shop might have done several ground runs, followed by a quick test hop, which could easily burn 10 gallons all in.

[LANCECASPER]

No one wants to land their own airplane in a field. I hope if I'm ever in this situation that I remind myself that my plans that day have just changed and the airplane now belongs to the insurance company at this point. It's not my job to save the airplane, but to save me and my passengers. Corn field vs. busy road, no problem, corn stalks are lot more forgiving than power lines, buildings or cars. Gear up vs. gear down for more friction & less chance of flipping it. Prop strike, no big deal, who cares? All of that stuff, including the airplane if it's totaled, can be replaced. Another good reason to keep full coverage at current values so other thoughts don't cross my mind. 

[redbaron1982]

I don't want to judge the pilots decisions, never been in a situation like that and don't know what tricks your mind can play on you, but it is shocking how he didn't land in any of the alternatives he had.

If he as descending already with one tank dry, he could have safely land at KCTK, south of his flight path.

When he declared, at 2.5kft he could have landed in 5LL5, a grass strip 1800ft long. Was north of his flight path, less than a mile away.

I'm a relatively "young" pilot (in flight time) so I still do my homework for every flight, which includes looking around the airports of intended landing/takeoff for plan b's if something goes south while descending or climbing. Having the plan b in mind already usually speeds up decision making quite a bit. I wonder if with experience, complacency kicks in and thorough planning goes away.

[David Lloyd]

Once he looked at the road as a probability, he was fixated on the road and saw nothing else.  Once near landing it looked like he tried to avoid a car and that didn't work out well for them.

Road, lake, field, chain link fences are better than big oak trees, trains, big trucks and brick walls.  Avoid hitting those head on at all costs.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't want to judge the pilots decisions, never been in a situation like that and don't know what tricks your mind can play on you, but it is shocking how he didn't land in any of the alternatives he had.
If he as descending already with one tank dry, he could have safely land at KCTK, south of his flight path.
When he declared, at 2.5kft he could have landed in 5LL5, a grass strip 1800ft long. Was north of his flight path, less than a mile away.
I'm a relatively "young" pilot (in flight time) so I still do my homework for every flight, which includes looking around the airports of intended landing/takeoff for plan b's if something goes south while descending or climbing. Having the plan b in mind already usually speeds up decision making quite a bit. I wonder if with experience, complacency kicks in and thorough planning goes away.

I’ve tried to find private grass strips I can see on the charts and never could see them. Trying to pick out a grass strip surrounded by green vegetation is very difficult and could have been blocked by his wing in the moment he looked around. I try to find hangars before I look for runways, even with regular airports.
Easy to do sitting in your easy chair with google earth looking directly down, but with no engine, mind racing…road probably was easy to spot and inviting, probably line up well before small town and glided further than he wanted.

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I've never thought much about the AMSAFE airbag seat belts until watching that video. The airplane I bought last November has them and I've been thinking that it's just one more thing that needs an inspection, but in that impact that may have limited their travel and slowed down their impact.

The question I have, is were they even wearing their shoulder harnesses.

Without installing inertial reel harnesses, some people don't want to deal with the shoulder harness.

[ArtVandelay]

Once he looked at the road as a probability, he was fixated on the road and saw nothing else.  Once near landing it looked like he tried to avoid a car and that didn't work out well for them.
Road, lake, field, chain link fences are better than big oak trees, trains, big trucks and brick walls.  Avoid hitting those head on at all costs.

And if faced with big trees, aim between them, let the wings take the brunt of the first impact.

[Shadrach]

10 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

My experience...... gear unlocked ( mechanical linkage failure), asphalt runway, flaps fully extended, approximately 65 mph approach speed, calm winds, minimal floating prior to ground contact.....aircraft slid approximately 150 feet before coming to a stop, with only a slight loss of straight forward direction. 
 

This crash is just so heartbreaking.  So very sad for the loved ones left behind.

Did you land on the gear and have it fail or did you land gear up? 
I agree they tend to track the heading at touchdown. That implies stability but not control. On pavement the ability to alter course just 20° could be the difference between a head on impact and a glancing blow.

indeed this is a very sad situation.  It looks like the pilot had an interesting life. I believe he is is a well-known artist in the Santa Fe area. He is also the recipient of several medals for serving as helicopter pilot in the Vietnam war. 

[MooneyMitch]

38 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Did you land on the gear and have it fail or did you land gear up? 

I landed with the gear partially extended, in the unlocked position.  Per aircraft mechanics view as I made a low slow pass over the runway prior to eventual landing, the gear appeared be in limbo, located somewhere between fully down and locked and fully retracted.  
 

What happened?........during  gear retraction from slow flight maneuvers (with my instructor on board), the gear linkage became disengaged from the electric motor at the worm drive interface point (my former’67 F model).  Attempting to lock the gear with the manual lever was pointless due to the failure point. On a humorous note, I did attempt to lower and lock gear with emergency handle, but the worm drive got stuck on frame work and the handle snapped off in my hand.  I handed the handle to my instructor, asking if he had any other ideas? 

 

As an example.......had the plane been on jacks in the hangar and with the gear unlocked and hanging down, one could easily push the gear by hand in either direction.

As the wheels made contact with the ground upon touchdown, the wheels were pushed up into the wheel wells.

Hearing and feeling your beautiful Mooney coming to a rapid and grinding halt on the runway, is something I preferred not to experience again! 

[kortopates]

And it looks like it has speed brakes deployed in that pic. Doesn’t that reduce M20K fuel capacity to 72 gallons?

no, not at all. they reduce long range tank’s capacity only.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Will.iam]

10 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I landed with the gear partially extended, in the unlocked position.  Per aircraft mechanics view as I made a low slow pass over the runway prior to eventual landing, the gear appeared be in limbo, located somewhere between fully down and locked and fully retracted.  
 

What happened?........during  gear retraction from slow flight maneuvers (with my instructor on board), the gear linkage became disengaged from the electric motor at the worm drive interface point (my former’67 F model).  Attempting to lock the gear with the manual lever was pointless due to the failure point. On a humorous note, I did attempt to lower and lock gear with emergency handle, but the worm drive got stuck on frame work and the handle snapped off in my hand.  I handed the handle to my instructor, asking if he had any other ideas? 

 

As an example.......had the plane been on jacks in the hangar and with the gear unlocked and hanging down, one could easily push the gear by hand in either direction.

As the wheels made contact with the ground upon touchdown, the wheels were pushed up into the wheel wells.

Hearing and feeling your beautiful Mooney coming to a rapid and grinding halt on the runway, is something I preferred not to experience again! 

I wonder if you yawed excessively if the airflow would have pulled the main gear on one side out then yaw the other direction to get the other side main gear to lock. Just throwing that out there in case someone else is in this predicament maybe trying that might help. 

[MooneyMitch]

38 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

I wonder if you yawed excessively if the airflow would have pulled the main gear on one side out then yaw the other direction to get the other side main gear to lock. Just throwing that out there in case someone else is in this predicament maybe trying that might help. 

Thank you for your thoughts.  
As I asked my instructor if he had any more ideas, he did!

We turned that Mooney every which way but loose!  Full power high G tight turns, side slips, rapid climbs, etc.(consideration given for ripping control surfaces off)..... any maneuver we could think of to force the gear to lock itself into the down position...... a tall order it was, but we tried.

After all that, I came to grips with what was to be.  Safety for my instructor and myself was number one.

I’m sharing this information, as you stated, to possibly help others with my experience. My situation and experience, of course will not fit every situation.  

It’s most difficult to unsee the video, and to stop thinking about this tragic occurrence.

[Will.iam]

Thanks for letting me know the side-slip didn’t work. Still will not stop me from trying if i ever get stuck in that situation. I’ll also burn gas down to vfr mins before i set it down as to be as slow and light as possible. Might as well shoot some approaches while getting the gas down. Because in this day in age it will be months if not a year to get the airplane back into air worthy condition with all the lead times now a days.