Instructor Requirements for Insurance

[Dickard]

I'm trying to find a local instructor, but the Open Pilot requirements of my insurance are mandating 100 hours in retractable gear and 50 in type.  I have a Bravo.  So even experienced Mooney instructors may not have that much time in a turbo Mooney.  This is my first aircraft ownership experience.  I'm just curious if these are standard requirements by the insurance companies for instructors.

[kortopates]

I'm trying to find a local instructor, but the Open Pilot requirements of my insurance are mandating 100 hours in retractable gear and 50 in type.  I have a Bravo.  So even experienced Mooney instructors may not have that much time in a turbo Mooney.  This is my first aircraft ownership experience.  I'm just curious if these are standard requirements by the insurance companies for instructors.

The open pilot clause is not a statement of instructor requirements for your Bravo. I'll just cut to the chase and say most of us that specialize in Mooney Transition instruction like myself insist on being added as a named insured on your policy with a waiver of subrogation for purposes of providing instruction. This will make the open pilot clause irrelevant for instruction. The reason many of us insist on being on your policy is that if something happened, the open pilot clause only insures you the owner and the insurance company would likely subrogate against the instructor after making you whole.

I notice your at Colorado Springs so I'll put in a plug for joining us at the MAPA PPP in Denver over the weekend of June 10-11. If you're able to complete your solo requirements with a Mooney instructor by that time, you should come up KBJC to join us. Registration info is here: https://mooneypilots.org/events/2022-06-2022-mapa-safety-training-denver-co

[midlifeflyer]

Plenty of policies will have clauses which say that your dual must be with an instructor who meets the open pilot warranty. But in addition to the extra level of protection for the instructor @kortopates mentioned, adding an instructor by name has an additional benefit. The underwriter is gauging requirements for a specific person, not a generic pilot. With enough relevant experience the requirement are often substantially less than the open pilot warranty. 

An example - when my friend bought his Ovation he wanted to name me on the policy. At the time, the open pilot warranty was 25 hours make and model. I had zero. Based on my pilot application form, I was accepted with a requirement that I get only two hours of dual in type (actually, I was initially accepted with zero hours, but I think that underwriter was smoking something illicit).

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, Dickard said:

I'm just curious if these are standard requirements by the insurance companies for instructors.

When you find an instructor you like, check with the insurance company to see if they approve.  It's not worth it to guess.

[BravoWhiskey]

I have a bravo and used an instructor that had limited time in it.  Insurance asked me for his overall credentials and that ended up being accepted.  Plenty of Mooney time, just not in the bravo.

Edited May 28, 2022 by BravoWhiskey

[Ron McBride]

There are several pilot/ instructor here with lots of bravo time.  They are not cheap.  Would you rather learn right, or risk your family with poor instruction? 
 

 

[hubcap]

I was very fortunate that Myrtle’s previous owner was a CFI and he gave me the instruction necessary to meet the insurance requirement as part of the purchase. He was obviously quite familiar with how to properly operate and manage the turbo and the engine as well as best Mooney practices. In hind site I am more thankful than ever that I wasn’t forced to get a CFI with no Mooney experience.

[201er]

Does it really matter if the instructor meets the open pilot clause? Is the owner prohibited from acting as PIC? As long as the owner has appropriate ratings, endorsements, medical, and BFR, I would think even an instructor with zero Mooney time would be legal. Does the insurance say instruction required or cannot act as PIC until hours are met?

Quality of instruction is an entirely different story. 

[David M20J]

I just went through getting insurance and trying to get a ferry pilot to fly my new plane home a few months ago as a first time airplane owner.  I tend to agree @201er here on the instructor requirements.  The open pilot clause really only applied to the ferry pilot we were trying to hire and not the instructor.  the way my insurance explained it to us was that whoever is PIC needs to be named or meet the open pilot clause.  So I would say as long as you meet the requirements to act as PIC in that aircraft, from the insurance view it shouldn't matter who you get your dual from as long as they are a CFI/I.

 

And yes with @201er again on quality is a different story

Edited May 28, 2022 by David M20J

[chriscalandro]

If I’m going to hire an instructor to do transition training, they can meet the insurance requirements or I’ll find a different instructor. None of this named pilot BS to avoid liability. 
 

if you’re getting paid to teach me how to fly my airplane, and as an instructor you allow that airplane to crash, then what the F were you there for?  I could have crashed it on my own. 
 

You can confidently teach me to fly the airplane or you can’t. Being worried about subrogation tells me something about confidence. 

[PT20J]

13 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

If I’m going to hire an instructor to do transition training, they can meet the insurance requirements or I’ll find a different instructor. None of this named pilot BS to avoid liability. 
 

if you’re getting paid to teach me how to fly my airplane, and as an instructor you allow that airplane to crash, then what the F were you there for?  I could have crashed it on my own. 
 

You can confidently teach me to fly the airplane or you can’t. Being worried about subrogation tells me something about confidence. 

By that logic, you don't need insurance at all. If you hire a competent instructor then the instructor won't let you crash, so you are safe during training. And, if you get good training, you certainly won't crash afterwards. You'll never use the insurance, so why buy it?

Stuff happens. That's why we buy insurance.

From an instructor's point of view, I have never been seriously scared by a primary student. They tend to be predictable. I have been seriously scared by experienced pilots that I hadn't flown with before because they sometimes have developed weird habits that you don't find out about until it's (almost) too late.

[201er]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

If I’m going to hire an instructor to do transition training, they can meet the insurance requirements or I’ll find a different instructor. None of this named pilot BS to avoid liability. 
 

if you’re getting paid to teach me how to fly my airplane, and as an instructor you allow that airplane to crash, then what the F were you there for?  I could have crashed it on my own.

Many of the most experienced/best Mooney pilots that you could ever learn from, really don't care about teaching you. They're busy flying their own Mooneys and their lives don't revolve around instructing you. For the privilege of getting them to work with you, they at least don't want their own assets and Mooneys confiscated because your plane wasn't maintained adequately and lead to an accident.

[chriscalandro]

24 minutes ago, 201er said:

Many of the most experienced/best Mooney pilots that you could ever learn from, really don't care about teaching you. They're busy flying their own Mooneys and their lives don't revolve around instructing you. For the privilege of getting them to work with you, they at least don't want their own assets and Mooneys confiscated because your plane wasn't maintained adequately and lead to an accident.

We’re not talking about maintenance. Accidents, we’re talking about transition training accidents. Could there be overlap? Sure, but unlikely, and even less likely it would become a subrogation issue. 
 

being confident also includes being able to teach emergencies and getting the airplane down in case there is an emergency.  If my prop stops mid air, and my Mooney instructor stall spins the airplane into the ground for no good reason, if I survive, I’m probably going to be pissed off, and so will the insurance company.

 

this group has a history of demonstrating accidents due to poor transition training. 
 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by chriscalandro

[ilovecornfields]

If a CFI was absolute protection against crashing I think their hourly rate would go up substantially. I know of at least a handful of CFIs who are very experienced and teach because they enjoy it, not because they need the income.

If you’re expecting one of these gentlemen to hop into the flying jalopy you just bought off eBay, break you of your bad habits and face a multi-million dollar lawsuit if you somehow screw it up then you’re delusional.

Good instructors are priceless: I have no problem adding someone to my policy in exchange for excellent instruction. The ones that don’t want to be added probably aren’t the best ones to teach you about risk management…

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

If I’m going to hire an instructor to do transition training, they can meet the insurance requirements or I’ll find a different instructor. None of this named pilot BS to avoid liability. 

I’m sure you can find a 20-something CFI with a negative net worth willing to instruct you under your policy’s open pilot clause.  

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

 

 

this group has a history of demonstrating accidents due to poor transition training. 
 

 

Which history are you referring to… all Bravo accidents?

How many Long body accidents are there?

I can think of one that occurred right after TT was completed… but, that wasn’t a Bravo… (departure stall while transition trainer was looking on….)
 

Let’s take a Bravo accident during transition training for example….

I recall one…

There are very few Bravo accidents to select from… and even fewer during transition training….

The lost airman was briefly an MSer… and now has a large safety Fly-in named in his honor… 

The hard lesson learned… is about turbo exhaust system maintenance… and possibly the value of CO monitors…

 

When you have the budget to acquire or operate a Bravo… getting Transition Training from the most qualified Bravo instructor isn’t a real limit… and that includes flying him half way around the country…. With a hotel room if required…

 

So….

Get something out of the TT….

Go through the effort of all phases of flight, on the delivery flight… in the FLs, using the O2 systems….

Include emergency descent procedures and all forms of navigation… because you can…

 

Insurance asks for a lot… Transition Training during the delivery flight is probably longer than what is required…

If you haven’t received TT from an instructor that specializes in Mooney TT…. You have no idea what you are missing…  

 

If you are a pro-pilot… you look forward to transition training… to get the most out of it…

If you are not a pro-pilot… you look forward to transition training… to get the most out of it…

 

Go Transition Training!

Go Bravo!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a- 

 

 

[carusoam]

On 5/27/2022 at 1:08 PM, Dickard said:

I'm trying to find a local instructor…

I think I see the challenge….

First plane… other than a trainer?

Have you transitioned to other planes before?

Did that transition training include everything you want to know about the plane…?

Or did it leave you with questions about the best way to do things….?

 

A Mooney specific CFII is a great thing to have in your I-Rolodex….

Unless life is about meeting the minimum requirements…. 

Some aviation experiments are best learned from someone else quickly… why repeat things to find out how well they don’t work?

 

There is a list of Mooney specific CFIIs around here… and a website that has at least one in every state…

 

Transition is about becoming one with the specific machine….  Because you can.
 

Fortunately, or unfortunately…. Bravos are not common enough…. 

Once your transition is complete… you still might want your local CFII that you can get to know for all things IR flying….

Then look up MAPA training for knowledge maintenance…. As the years go on….

Powerful long X-country machines make you want the additional training….

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFII or mechanic… wanting you to transition safely…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Fly Boomer]

7 hours ago, David M20J said:

So I would say as long as you meet the requirements to act as PIC in that aircraft, from the insurance view it shouldn't matter who you get your dual from as long as they are a CFI/I.

I would rather be certain.

[David M20J]

34 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I would rather be certain.

I would hope no one takes what I say or anyone else on an internet platform at face value, and that they do a little research.  I was just merely sharing the experience with my insurance company and offering an avenue to look into with the posters insurance

[donkaye]

On 5/27/2022 at 10:08 AM, Dickard said:

I'm trying to find a local instructor, but the Open Pilot requirements of my insurance are mandating 100 hours in retractable gear and 50 in type.  I have a Bravo.  So even experienced Mooney instructors may not have that much time in a turbo Mooney.  This is my first aircraft ownership experience.  I'm just curious if these are standard requirements by the insurance companies for instructors.

Richard, I'm sorry the weather didn't cooperate to do your transition training after our cross country to bring the plane back to KCOS from Florida.  I'm still willing to come out later this summer if you wish.  Meanwhile, I think it would be a good idea to take the Mooney PPP in a couple of weeks.  It will be very close to you.  The ground instruction and manuals are outstanding and many Mooney specific instructors will be present.  I will be in Texas for MooneyMax that weekend so won't be instructing there.  Several great instructors you could request are Jerry Johnson, Paul Kortopates, or Parvez Dara.

[Dickard]

I didn't meant to stir up so much debate.  I had Don Kaye ferry the plane with me back from Florida and then do a day of transition training where I learned a lot. Of course the weekend of the PPP in Denver, I'll be at my son's baseball tournament in Greely (of all places).

I've got about 30 hours in my Bravo now, and I'm ready to start working on my instrument currency and some mountain flying. I have a couple of local instructors that I really like and one of them has some Mooney turbo time. It just wasn't enough to satisfy my insurance company. (Yes, I submitted his application to them) I want someone local that I can build a relationship with and do frequent training. No matter how many hours I get, I'll want to have an instructor to work with me on things.  Such as...

"Man, my crosswind landing yesterday sucked. Can we go up this weekend when the winds kick up and work on those?"

That sort of thing will be a part of my flying until I turn in my medical.

[Parker_Woodruff]

1. Once you've met your required transition training from a CFI that meets the insurance company's requirements, you typically can receive instruction from anyone you want to.

2. If a CFI has good experience somewhat relevant to the M20M (say, some Acclaim & Ovation time), they might give a specific approval to that CFI.  Or they might approve once he goes and flies the aircraft solo for an hour.

[Dickard]

57 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

1. Once you've met your required transition training from a CFI that meets the insurance company's requirements, you typically can receive instruction from anyone you want to.

2. If a CFI has good experience somewhat relevant to the M20M (say, some Acclaim & Ovation time), they might give a specific approval to that CFI.  Or they might approve once he goes and flies the aircraft solo for an hour.

I completed with my transition training with Don Kaye who MORE than met insurance requirements.  Now I just want to fly with my local instructor who is a young guy trying to build time.  He's only got 60+ hours in retractable gear aircraft and just less than 10 in a turbo Mooney (K model I believe?).  He's a mountain flying guy, which is what I'm looking for.

[Parker_Woodruff]

18 hours ago, Dickard said:

I completed with my transition training with Don Kaye who MORE than met insurance requirements.  Now I just want to fly with my local instructor who is a young guy trying to build time.  He's only got 60+ hours in retractable gear aircraft and just less than 10 in a turbo Mooney (K model I believe?).  He's a mountain flying guy, which is what I'm looking for.

Just make sure there's no solo period prior to carrying other occupants and you'll be fine.  Otherwise, if you still need to fly an additional amount of dual or solo to reach the total hour requirements, get the other CFI approved for those flights.

[Pinecone]

Where is a list (with locations) for these great Mooney transition instructors?

I hope to need one shortly