S-TEC 3100 autopilot upgrade redux

[ArtVandelay]

And aren't the Garmin servos considered to be better?

Define better?
Garmin’s are digital and Stec are analog.
Garmin’s are lighter but not as heavy duty, this was proven by the problems people had with pitch oscillations with stick controls.
Garmin’s went through some problems with their servos which I think have been solved.

[Rwsavory]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:41 AM, M20Doc said:

For G-1000 equipped airplanes there is no path to a Garmin autopilot so an update to the S-Tec 3100 is the only option at this time.  For non G-1000 Garmin is a logical choice

Clarence

And yet Genesys is still waiting for those 15 deposits.  In any event, the reason it’s “too little“ is they aren’t investing their own money in the STC. Too late, because Garmin.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

And yet Genesys is still waiting for those 15 deposits.  In any event, the reason it’s “too little“ is they aren’t investing their own money in the STC. Too late, because Garmin.  

This came up some years ago but the many of the interested parties failed to put their deposits down and the project was delayed/abandoned.

Clarence

[rbridges]

13 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Define better?
Garmin’s are digital and Stec are analog.
Garmin’s are lighter but not as heavy duty, this was proven by the problems people had with pitch oscillations with stick controls.
Garmin’s went through some problems with their servos which I think have been solved.

I really don't know much about them, but I thought I'd read they were supposed to be more durable.  Just wondering which type holds up better over time. 

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

This came up some years ago but the many of the interested parties failed to put their deposits down and the project was delayed/abandoned.

Clarence

The quirkiness of the deposit request was more of an ethical issue….

Where the potential customers couldn’t follow the method of writing a purchase order as defined by STec…

They wanted to show their interest… but couldn’t use a PO to do that… and certainly not in an unethical (to the customers) way…

Couldn’t supply a downpayment in the traditional way… because there was no telling when the STC could be finished or the product be installable….

 

Sooooo….

Plenty of disappointed people with lasting memories around here…

Many interested people willing to proceed with replacing their old STecs…

Somebody with a good question about updating their G1000 system with an STec…

 

Wonder who will supply the answers…?

So much time has elapsed… the AP is getting installed in other planes already…

Soooo many days have gone by….  Buhler, Buhler?

 

PP thoughts only, not an avionics guru…

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

10 hours ago, Rwsavory said:

And yet Genesys is still waiting for those 15 deposits.  In any event, the reason it’s “too little“ is they aren’t investing their own money in the STC. Too late, because Garmin.  

I seriously don’t get the thing of insisting that customers fund their R&D. That’s not how this works.

I tried to talk to them at Oshkosh about this and they were very belligerent, almost to the point of being hostile and combative about their beloved auto pilot and I’m like look Garmin is going to eat you guys completely, you have to get products to market and they trailed off  with some mumbo-jumbo about how they certified more airframes first than Garmin did and I’m like yeah well that was then and this is now and you guys have no follow on product and your old product is hopelessly obsolete so what are you gonna do? Thanks and they were like ours is better I’m like does it have VNAV  from top of descent? Does it have a smart glide? Does it have some sort of canvas where you have a four wire pair to connect every box? I just saw this at the Garmin tent 30 minutes ago. And then they got even more belligerent I’m like this is not how this goes.I wish somebody would tell them they’re all going to be looking for a job in three years but that’s about how much longer this company  is going to exist. But you know what they did it to themselves… they VASTLY underestimated the competition and then doubled down on ignorance. Said they have not heard anything bad on the Internet about them I’m like you know I have not visited mooney space or beach talk or Facebook or anywhere else? My client has a twin Comanche, it’s probably 15-20 PA30 guys on the boards and also mumbling about having to pay 10 grand upfront for a fucking auto pilot whenever you know Garmin has a twin Comanche in the shop now so you know my client has $100,000 worth of radios in his panel, and would have bought the 3100 a year ago if it was available, but now he’s going with a gfc500. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by jetdriven

[tmo]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But you know what they did it to themselves… they VASTLY underestimated the competition and then doubled down on ignorance.

You're talking about King, right?

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, tmo said:

You're talking about King, right?

Garmin ate king snd s-tec is next. 

[Mooney in Oz]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:44 PM, rbridges said:

Does their price include any servo overhauls?

Don't think so. I seem to recall only a 2 year warranty was offered on the existing servos.

[Zach S.]

On 9/23/2021 at 8:30 PM, Danlj said:

It's been almost 4 years since Barry Leblanc brought up the 3100. 15 owners showed some interest, but most failed to put up a deposit, so the STC was not pursued.

Any Mooney M20 is possible;
  An STC is required to install this new autopilot.
  stec3100.genesys-aerosystems.com/310pilot
  Genesys is interested in pursuing an STC for the M20 series.
  They need 15 of us to get this done (minimum), and one plane (sorta near Mineral Wells, TX) for testing.
  They proceed after they have deposits from at least 15.
   To upgrade from the S-TEC 60-2 is going to be ~$11k-$15k list + installation. The servos are re-used.
This will be less costly than going full Garmin from an S-TEC.
  Contact Zach Sands if interested.
Zach.sands@genesys-aerosystems.com
mobile = 1 940-654-0534

Daniel,

First and foremost thank you for the call and the interest.   Thanks also for helping to get the information out there.  I understand that there is a storied history behind this effort and in reading the responses to your post, I can see that there is no lack of passion for the subject.   We all know that completing STCs of any kind is a complex business.  Certification efforts for autopilots and flight control systems only serve to compound that complexity.  In short, it is no simple (or inexpensive) task for any organization to undertake for any airframe.   

I am relatively new to the Genesys team, so I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of what happened 2, 3, or 4 years ago.  If there is a specific concern or issue, I'd be happy to address that privately.   In regards to moving forward, we do need to understand who is still interested, what Mooney variant they fly, and what their level of interest is (ex.  just kicking the tires and shopping the market to "here, take my money").  

One proviso that I will add to Daniel's post is that the 3100 DFCS is not currently compatible with the G1000 avionics system.  My understanding is that this has been discussed at length in previous posts so I won't go into the details here.   This is a complex, OEM-designed, and purpose-built interface and while there is an interest in getting the 3100 to work with the G1000, no guarantees can be made.  

If you're interested in this effort or if you have questions, please feel free to contact me via email at zach.sands@genesys-aerosystems.com.   Daniel has provided my mobile number above, but I am not always available to answer the phone.  Email is your best bet and I will respond as soon as possible.  

Thank you,

Zach Sands, Technical Sales

 

 

[Guest]

On 9/27/2021 at 11:13 AM, jetdriven said:

Garmin ate king snd s-tec is next. 

Garmin and Cirrus are wiping out the competition in the GA world.

Clarence

[Amelia]

I’m one of the fifteen hopeful ones lured and dumped.. My stec30 was troublesome. A well-loved and respected Mooniac talked the 3100 up, said it was exactly what we each needed. Well, we all know where that led. We waited, called, and waited some more. My avionics tech told 3100 horror stories.  My dear friend, tired of waiting, died,, and my stec autopilot,overhauled at considerable expense, is still disappointing. I am an admittedly slow learner, but nope. Fooled me once…. I will put up with what I have, and let the next eventual owner of this wonderful bird make that decision, I think, unless somebody else comes up with a very good alternative. 

[ArtVandelay]

Garmin and Cirrus are wiping out the competition in the GA world.
Clarence

It’s not like their competition is putting up much resistance.
Not only are they not putting out good products but they seem to treat their prospective customers with indifference.

[Oscar Avalle]

4 hours ago, Zach S. said:

Daniel,

First and foremost thank you for the call and the interest.   Thanks also for helping to get the information out there.  I understand that there is a storied history behind this effort and in reading the responses to your post, I can see that there is no lack of passion for the subject.   We all know that completing STCs of any kind is a complex business.  Certification efforts for autopilots and flight control systems only serve to compound that complexity.  In short, it is no simple (or inexpensive) task for any organization to undertake for any airframe.   

I am relatively new to the Genesys team, so I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of what happened 2, 3, or 4 years ago.  If there is a specific concern or issue, I'd be happy to address that privately.   In regards to moving forward, we do need to understand who is still interested, what Mooney variant they fly, and what their level of interest is (ex.  just kicking the tires and shopping the market to "here, take my money").  

One proviso that I will add to Daniel's post is that the 3100 DFCS is not currently compatible with the G1000 avionics system.  My understanding is that this has been discussed at length in previous posts so I won't go into the details here.   This is a complex, OEM-designed, and purpose-built interface and while there is an interest in getting the 3100 to work with the G1000, no guarantees can be made.  

If you're interested in this effort or if you have questions, please feel free to contact me via email at zach.sands@genesys-aerosystems.com.   Daniel has provided my mobile number above, but I am not always available to answer the phone.  Email is your best bet and I will respond as soon as possible.  

Thank you,

Zach Sands, Technical Sales

 

 

Dear Zach

Thank you for your post. I am looking forward to hearing more about the autopilot upgrade and hopefully Genesys will be able to deliver on what you said. Reading your email and your responsiveness it seems to me that there has been a real change in its management's approach.

 

Oscar 

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, Zach S. said:

Daniel,

First and foremost thank you for the call and the interest.   Thanks also for helping to get the information out there.  I understand that there is a storied history behind this effort and in reading the responses to your post, I can see that there is no lack of passion for the subject.   We all know that completing STCs of any kind is a complex business.  Certification efforts for autopilots and flight control systems only serve to compound that complexity.  In short, it is no simple (or inexpensive) task for any organization to undertake for any airframe.   

I am relatively new to the Genesys team, so I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of what happened 2, 3, or 4 years ago.  If there is a specific concern or issue, I'd be happy to address that privately.   In regards to moving forward, we do need to understand who is still interested, what Mooney variant they fly, and what their level of interest is (ex.  just kicking the tires and shopping the market to "here, take my money").  

One proviso that I will add to Daniel's post is that the 3100 DFCS is not currently compatible with the G1000 avionics system.  My understanding is that this has been discussed at length in previous posts so I won't go into the details here.   This is a complex, OEM-designed, and purpose-built interface and while there is an interest in getting the 3100 to work with the G1000, no guarantees can be made.  

If you're interested in this effort or if you have questions, please feel free to contact me via email at zach.sands@genesys-aerosystems.com.   Daniel has provided my mobile number above, but I am not always available to answer the phone.  Email is your best bet and I will respond as soon as possible.  

Thank you,

Zach Sands, Technical Sales

 

 

Welcome aboard Zach!

At MooneySpace you have the opportunity to reach thousands of potential Mooney customers…

The conversations are often technical…

how products work…

how they get integrated…

what needs to be done if somebody wants to go forward with their project…

 

MSers are a collection of serious pilots… from Pro pilots to amateur…. Some have rotary wing aircraft on their resumé… other have gliders… many have Boeing and/or Airbus experience, some have corporate jet experience…often they have other skills as well… Doctors, Lawyers, mechanics, engineers, business owners, we even have a few musicians and accountants…

Some MSers are CFIIs that train Transition Skills to new owners…

You have a great opportunity to break from the past…

Nothing makes bad memories of the past go away faster than great new products and fantastic services at affordable prices … with a presence when people have questions about their STec…

 

You can have your email attached to your user profile…. So when people are looking for you, you can get a notification…

Oddly…. MS isn’t a commercial site and doesn’t use much advertising… (some people pay the entry level fee to not see ads)

If you would like to be a supporter… there is a contact for that too…

To avoid complaints… Be nice to everyone… including the competition… 

 

Private pilot thoughts only, not a web services guy..

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeff_S]

Hello @Zach S..  I was one of the participants in the last discussion about upgrading to the 3100, and would still love that opportunity. As you have noted, though, it is not backwards compatible with the 55x in terms of the G1000 interface.  It seems like this would have been a "no-brainer" requirement to me, but I admit I don't understand all the architecture decisions that went into making the 3100.  That said, if Genesys is ever really serious about updating the 3100 to be compatible with the G1000 and provide the same UI capabilities as the 55x (e.g. using the G1000 altitude hold as the only input required!) then I'd pay the $10 or $15K in a heartbeat. I still have a goal of removing every spinning gyro from my panel, and as it stands now the 55x may be the last holdout.

Tell us more!

Jeff

[MatthiasArnold]

On 9/29/2021 at 2:58 PM, Jeff_S said:

That said, if Genesys is ever really serious about updating the 3100 to be compatible with the G1000 and provide the same UI capabilities as the 55x (e.g. using the G1000 altitude hold as the only input required!) then I'd pay the $10 or $15K in a heartbeat.

Same here - as stated in my post above, it is not understandabale to me (as electrical & software engineer) why S-Tec/Genesys did NOT consider backwards compatibility to 55X when designing the 3100. As far as I recall, G1000 (Garmin, Mooney) adapted to legacy 55X protocols (like altitude preselect) when doing integration, not the other away around. So - IMHO it is up to Genesys providing the upgrade path. I'm pretty sure: if Genesys would be willing to follow this avenue (and correct their own "business" decision to break compatibility to their prior products), a good ratio of G1000/55X owner's would buy-in.
Just my 2-cents..
Regards,
Matthias

[Danb]

I’m in full agreement with Matt & Jeff, I was disappointed when notified of the unit being not compatible with the G1000. 

[Zach S.]

On 9/28/2021 at 7:05 PM, Oscar Avalle said:

Dear Zach

Thank you for your post. I am looking forward to hearing more about the autopilot upgrade and hopefully Genesys will be able to deliver on what you said. Reading your email and your responsiveness it seems to me that there has been a real change in its management's approach.

 

Oscar 

Thank you Oscar, it has been a pleasure talking to you.  I appreciate all of the information that you provided.    While I am not in a position to make any promises and, in fact it would be foolish of me to do so, I will say that I am listening and will do what I can on my end.    I understand and can appreciate the frustrations surrounding this topic.

Zach

[Zach S.]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:33 PM, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard Zach!

At MooneySpace you have the opportunity to reach thousands of potential Mooney customers…

The conversations are often technical…

how products work…

how they get integrated…

what needs to be done if somebody wants to go forward with their project…

 

MSers are a collection of serious pilots… from Pro pilots to amateur…. Some have rotary wing aircraft on their resumé… other have gliders… many have Boeing and/or Airbus experience, some have corporate jet experience…often they have other skills as well… Doctors, Lawyers, mechanics, engineers, business owners, we even have a few musicians and accountants…

Some MSers are CFIIs that train Transition Skills to new owners…

You have a great opportunity to break from the past…

Nothing makes bad memories of the past go away faster than great new products and fantastic services at affordable prices … with a presence when people have questions about their STec…

 

You can have your email attached to your user profile…. So when people are looking for you, you can get a notification…

Oddly…. MS isn’t a commercial site and doesn’t use much advertising… (some people pay the entry level fee to not see ads)

If you would like to be a supporter… there is a contact for that too…

To avoid complaints… Be nice to everyone… including the competition… 

 

Private pilot thoughts only, not a web services guy..

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you for the kind welcome.  Those that I have spoken with already, have been a wealth of knowledge regarding the Mooney platforms.    My MO is that I treat people with respect and operate with integrity.   Aviation is a small community and I've worked too hard to become a part of it to compromise my own name.   Like I said in my previous posts, I will do what I can, communicate honestly, and advocate to advance this effort.

[Zach S.]

On 9/29/2021 at 7:58 AM, Jeff_S said:

Hello @Zach S..  I was one of the participants in the last discussion about upgrading to the 3100, and would still love that opportunity. As you have noted, though, it is not backwards compatible with the 55x in terms of the G1000 interface.  It seems like this would have been a "no-brainer" requirement to me, but I admit I don't understand all the architecture decisions that went into making the 3100.  That said, if Genesys is ever really serious about updating the 3100 to be compatible with the G1000 and provide the same UI capabilities as the 55x (e.g. using the G1000 altitude hold as the only input required!) then I'd pay the $10 or $15K in a heartbeat. I still have a goal of removing every spinning gyro from my panel, and as it stands now the 55x may be the last holdout.

Tell us more!

Jeff

Jeff, thank you for the information and your email.   I would like to give you a call at some point next week to pick your brain a bit more.   I was not with the company when the 3100 was conceived, designed, or certified - so I cannot offer an appropriate answer to the "why" question.   I will say that this is my 20th year in aviation and I've had the opportunity to work for a number of avionics manufacturers, aircraft MROs, and flight departments.    The relationships between product manufacturers is often very complex and is usually not as collaborative as we all would like.   The aircraft manufacturer is usually the determining force behind an integration effort that would otherwise not take place.  In this case, we're missing that component and as a result need to look at other avenues of integration.    

Zach

[Zach S.]

3 hours ago, MatthiasArnold said:

Same here - as stated in my post above, it is not understandabale to me (as electrical & software engineer) why S-Tec/Genesys did NOT consider backwards compatibility to 55X when designing the 3100. As far as I recall, G1000 (Garmin, Mooney) adapted to legacy 55X protocols (like altitude preselect) when doing integration, not the other away around. So - IMHO it is up to Genesys providing the upgrade path. I'm pretty sure: if Genesys would be willing to follow this avenue (and correct their own "business" decision to break compatibility to their prior products), a good ratio of G1000/55X owner's would buy-in.
Just my 2-cents..
Regards,
Matthias

Matthias, I appreciate your take on this.   Like I mentioned in my response to Jeff, I was not here so I won't comment on the "why".   What I will do is work to figure out if we have a valid way to move forward.   If we can find one and a valid business case can be made, I will advocate for it.   

Zach

[Zach S.]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

I’m in full agreement with Matt & Jeff, I was disappointed when notified of the unit being not compatible with the G1000. 

Dan, I can understand and appreciate that.  Hopefully through the revival of this conversation we can find a solution.   

Zach

[Zach S.]

On 9/28/2021 at 6:23 PM, Amelia said:

I’m one of the fifteen hopeful ones lured and dumped.. My stec30 was troublesome. A well-loved and respected Mooniac talked the 3100 up, said it was exactly what we each needed. Well, we all know where that led. We waited, called, and waited some more. My avionics tech told 3100 horror stories.  My dear friend, tired of waiting, died,, and my stec autopilot,overhauled at considerable expense, is still disappointing. I am an admittedly slow learner, but nope. Fooled me once…. I will put up with what I have, and let the next eventual owner of this wonderful bird make that decision, I think, unless somebody else comes up with a very good alternative. 

Amelia, thank you for your insight.   I am sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.  David also shared that story with me and it is sad to learn about the passing of someone so respected and admired.   

Regarding the 3100, I can't speak for the past.  Simply because I was not here, I don't know enough about the history, and there are always multiple sides and perspectives to every story.   And at this point....I am all but guaranteed to step in "it" no matter what I say!

What I will do is pick up the baton and do my best to find a path forward.  My hope is that we find a suitable solution.  

Clear skies and tailwinds to your friend that has passed on.  

Zach

[carusoam]

Zach,

It is great to see you getting settled in around MS, and getting to know the MSers as they come by…

 

There are plenty of STec APs in the installed base… and nearly every one of them is going to get considered for replacement...

 

Many are G1000 systems that got paired with the Stec 55s…. These are in the hands of the Early adopters…

It would be great if Stec has a 3100 system that is compatible with the offerings from Big G… G1000 / 3100 + the STC goofiness that goes with that  combination in a Mooney…

 

Then there are the handful of Dynon owners that are awaiting the STC for the DFC system…. Got anything for these guys while they wait?

That’s like a half dozen Mooney owners that have the desire, and funds, and space in the panel, to have a modern AP, but don’t have the avenue to get it… (now that’s commitment!)

What would it take to get them to into a 3100?

What do you have for people with the really aged Century systems? BK KAP/KFC systems? And the Really old but highly loved Brittain systems…?

Kind of homework hints on existing AP systems to look for in the Mooney World… 

PP thoughts only, not an avionics guy…

Best regards,

-a-