Learning to fly in a M20K?

[BenLaw]

HI

I am a student pilot and an opportunity has come my way to purchase a M20k. 

Do you think it is a bad idea to learn to fly in a Mooney M20K?

Also who do you recommend for a repurchase inspection of a Mooney in the Washington state area?

regards

Ben

[Raymond J1]

No, that's not a bad idea... But please don't break this airplane.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Raymond J

[1964-M20E]

There are those here who have done just that.  Not impossible but not necessarily the best idea either.

1.   You can get behind the plane easier with the K than with a 152 or 172.
2. Insurance will be very high check that out before you buy.
3. You should think about what your mission is after you get your PPL and make sure the K is a good fit.
4. Being an owner and student pilot at the same time could get overwhelming

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, BenLaw said:

HI

I am a student pilot and an opportunity has come my way to purchase a M20k. 

Do you think it is a bad idea to learn to fly in a Mooney M20K?

Also who do you recommend for a repurchase inspection of a Mooney in the Washington state area?

regards

Ben

Step one, get an insurance quote.  @Parker_Woodruff

The insurance co. will quantify the dollar risk for them and may open your eyes to how costly it could be to make your first few really bad landings in your own airplane.

It also depends on how far along you are as a student pilot. If you're flying solo and you are feeling comfortable it might make more sense than if you've taken one or two lessons.

[201er]

1 hour ago, BenLaw said:

HI

I am a student pilot and an opportunity has come my way to purchase a M20k. 

Do you think it is a bad idea to learn to fly in a Mooney M20K?

Given that 70-80% of student pilots drop out before ever reaching private pilot, buying any airplane is a bad idea. But especially more airplane than you can handle and an airplane that isn't going to enjoy such a beating.

Just my four half pennies.

[philiplane]

You learn in what you fly. You can learn in any plane if you are committed, studious, and have a competent instructor. Actor Danny Kaye, for example, learned to fly in a Piper Aztec. Zero time student, to private multi engine pilot.

You can learn a lot of bad habits in other planes, that you will have to unlearn in your new plane. That is costly.

 

[hubcap]

In my opinion it is not a good idea to learn to fly in a "K" model Mooney - I bought my M20K with about 600 hours of flight time already in my log book. It took me a good 20 hours to be proficient in the plane. It is NOT an aircraft for a beginner pilot, in my opinion. It IS a GREAT aircraft for a more experienced pilot...........in my opinion.

[Niko182]

I transitioned to an Eagle with 130 hours total time. I'd probably say go for it after you check if you can afford the insurance. I wouldn't be surprised if its over 6 or 7K. Also is it a 231 or a 252. It would probably be better if it was a 252. I feel like I never really learned engine management until in my Mooney. I don't know if I'd want to learn it while also learning to fly, and the 231 definitely takes more work to fly, compared to the 252's more user friendly power plant.

If you plan to, you need to be committed to really learn the plane. Does your instructor have time in a Mooney? I personally have the theory that you don't always need a Mooney CFI, but its going to be a really bad combination if both of you are learning to fly a 231, while you also aren't a private pilot, so in this situation, you'll really want a competent Mooney CFI who you work well with.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Niko182

[Immelman]

Learn to get off of and back onto the ground safely, precisely, again and again, to solo and a bit beyond, in a trainer. Something built for abuse.

After that you can transition to the M20K. It will take more time.... but that's okay. The insurance company will want time.

[Greg Ellis]

I second what @Immelman stated about the abuse.  Just think of the abuse some of these trainers take during flight training.  On the power, off the power...full throttle to zero throttle and back to full throttle again.  Multiple stalls, etc... where you are on an off the throttle in a short time.  I would not want to put a K model through this.  

If it is possible, you could buy the K model if you just don't want to pass it up.  Continue your lessons in whatever trainer you ae using (172, Warrior etc...) and maybe occasionally fly the K model with a Mooney proficient instructor to keep the airplane flying.  Then when you are done you can transition right into the K model.  This is if you just have to buy this plane, cannot pass up an awesome deal, and can get insured at a relatively affordable rate.

[carusoam]

There is a similar thread covering a very similar issue...  

Learning to fly in a complex or high performance plane...

Doesn’t make a lot of sense...

If you have the time, money, and dedication to do it....

It can be done safely...

Doing it while holding down a job, raising a family, saving to buy a home, and staying current... becomes extra challenging...

All the experience gained while flying a trainer... isn’t lost.

When you move up to the high performance plane with 100hrs in other planes.... the breadth of experience is very usable...

If thinking skipping a step will somehow save money...   find the Mooney pilots that go on to get their glider rating, sea plane rating, or tail wheel endorsement...   these are pieces of the experience pie that are helpful when used while flying their Mooney...

So... tell us about the M20K that you have the opportunity to buy...

Buy the M20K, keep it to be flown later....

Rent the trainer, to keep from breaking the M20K...   

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shiny moose]

I would say after you decide you want to pay the insurance and devote yourself to getting your PPL, go take a few flights in the Mooney, with a qualified instructor,  with proper feedback from your real mooney instructor and you being a realist, you will be able to make the choice. Lots of factors , money, maintenance, your age, your abilities, location, instuctor qualifications. during PPL training you will need some airplane forgiveness, in my opinion a Mooney is just not as forgiving as a C or P trainer.

 

[jlunseth]

I did it that way, got my license and then bought the plane while I was working on my instrument. It is not hard to fly. I would find a good transition instructor, but just go for it. I was lucky, I had very good instructors for both my PPL and my instrument. During my PPL my instructor had me mimic the full GUMPS, including putting the gear down in a fixed gear warrior. Having done that, it was a nothing to actually put gear down. The engine takes some learning from someone with experience so you don’t fry it, which is easy to do if you fly it the same way you would fly an NA engine. Leaning on takeoff and climb would be the number one mistake. OTW, its just not that big a deal.

[carusoam]

Two areas of interest...

Machine safety...   

Human safety...

 

Machine safety issues... are about the expensive things you may need to fix or replace.... because there is so much to learn to not break things....

 

Human safety issues... are the important ones...  with an M20K you can be flying in the FLs... crossing weather systems... while crossing several states...

 

Human safety issues are a lot to take on as a student pilot...

Trainers are more forgiving when it comes to stall speeds and bank angles....

When it comes to flying a trainer... they probably don’t go into much detail about O2 systems, back-ups, and TUC.... 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[spistora]

All good advice so far.

I bought my 231 with 130 hours and it has worked out ok so far.  If you have good attention to detail and can create good habits (that really goes for any aircraft) you will be good in a M20K.  Definately check insurance with Parker.  I'm glad I was in a rental airplane when I was learning to land, you don't want hard landings or bounces in the Mooney.  Also, the market isn't the greatest for buyers and unless this is a great opportunity I would wait to buy.  If it is a great opportunity, then wait to fly it until you are confindent in your flying skills.

[RJBrown]

My first plane was a 231. Great plane, loved it.

Bought it 2 years after I got my private. Had IFR and 385 hours by then.

Initial training in your own 231 would be a bit tougher on you because there is so much more to learn initially. 
It has been done but it would take a better instructor. Good habits early could make for a better pilot.
Would be harder on the plane to. Beating a plane to death with touch and goes is best left to rentals.

I would at least get the private first just to save the abuse to the plane. I took 3 months of pretty intense training, committed to fly 2-3 times a week.

With an intense training schedule you learn in fewer hour because there is less “retraining” between flights.

I found real learning is limited to 1 hour flights. After an hour you can be overloaded. 

[A64Pilot]

Boss at work was dead set on his kid learning how to fly in the C-210. He never got competent in it at all, I believe he was smart enough to realize that too and sold the airplane before he killed himself and maybe others too.

It seems simple to those that are used to complex airplanes but it’s not, I don’t care who you are, as a student soloing and or a new pilot it’s easy to be overcome by events .

‘The guy with the 210, he picked me up one day after taking a customers airplane back to them, we took off and he was behind the airplane the whole time, he got target fixated on programming the GPS, even though you could see our destination out the window, the whole time the motor is screaming at take off RPM, an IO-520 in a 210 has a 5 min limit at takeoff RPM

Ideally it’s best in my opinion to learn to fly in a very simple tailwheel airplane and learn to fly first, then after your proficient at stick and rudder skills move up to an airplane with fancy avionics, then after awhile a complex aircraft, but I’d say get your instrument rating before going to a complex airplane.

‘Besides, the more different airframes you fly, the more you will learn about flying as each will have its strengths and weaknesses, for example one day being real proficient with the rudder which you learned flying tailwheels may save you when that big unexpected gust of wind hits

Edited May 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Ron McBride]

My Dad had a Comanche, I learned a lot from the right seat, what a change in the left seat.  When I officially learned I did it in a C150.     Later on we did same in a C310.  First ride with an instructor, he commented that I had flown the plane before.

It can be done, but if I was doing it again as a student, I would learn in someone else’s trainer.

Ron

 

[Ibra]

You may need to get the instructor briefed on the cost of engine overhauls if he plan to surprise you with engine failure practices, and have spare tires & props for pattern practice, other than that check if insurance happy with it

If runway is long and money is not a problem you learn in any aircraft (some do their first 100hours with 7T aircraft using taxpayers money ) but probably better to use trainers that belong to other people

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Ibra

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

I know a lot of people who learned to fly in T-28s, T-34s, UH-1s, TH-57s, and T-37s.  It took way more than 40 hours, though.  More like 150+ for most.  Solo took 20-30 hours for most; I soloed in 3 in a C-150.  Which do you prefer...?

[larryb]

Ben:

 

Are you confident that a K model is the right plane for you once you finish your training? And how much do you know about the pitfalls and risks of buying an airplane?

 

I was happy to do my instrument training in the J I had a the time and not the K I have now.  Every training flight was like 7 approaches followed by full power climb outs. Training is a lot more stress on the plane than simply climbing to altitude and flying there at 65% power for a couple hours.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I like the K model Mooneys and think they are the right plane for almost everyone. Maybe that's why I own one. So if you have the opportunity to buy a good one, not a cheap one, but a really nice one, because they are rare, then do it. Really nice K's don't come around often, so if you can buy one, do. 

Then find someone to fly it and keep it in nice running condition while you keep learning to fly in the Cessna or Piper, or whatever you are using today. Get your Private, and then start transitioning into that wonderful Mooney. You'll still be money ahead.

[geoffb]

You can learn to manage the IO-360 or you can learn to flare.  I don't think you can do both at the same time.

An E, a 201, probably only increase your time to your check ride by 40-50%.  But you won't buy a motor.  I'd skip the turbo piston for my initial.

[midlifeflyer]

You can learn to fly in anything but there are tradeoffs. The biggest tradeoff is time. Like anything else, the more complex the airplane, the more there is to learn. And that's both knowledge and skill. Let's take something basic - landing.

In a 172 you have something very simple. Fuel sits there on both so, at most engine management beyond the single throttle is the mixture control.  Overheating and overcooling are non-issues. Flaps are highly effective and, although they should nor really be used that way, act like speed brakes. Plus, you are in an airplane which is very forgiving of errors. The result is, most learn the basics of airspeed control and landing very quickly.

Contrast that with learning for the very beginning in a turbo-charged engine which need to be cared for, with both throttle and manifold pressure gauges, an engine which needs temperature management. Not to mention landing gear and an airplane very unforgiving of errors.

At some point, with some airplanes, the time factor is less because the extra time to learn equals out with a post-certificate time savings in not having to transition. But as the airplane becomes more complex, the balance tends to be upset.

So it really depends on you, the skills yo bring to the table, and how long you are willing to wait to get in the air solo.

[RobertGary1]

Those advocating getting another plane first and then selling it and buying the Mooney must not live in California where we have to pay 10% of the purchase price to the state on each purchase.