Questions regarding O2 setups with a Mask

[Niko182]

I recently started flying in the mid teens with oxygen and so far I am a big fan to say the least. However I've come into a couple issues and I figured it would be better for me to figure some things out before trying it and having issues at 17 to 18 thousand feet.

I've been wearing cannulas lately and realized I was would get hypoxic above 15ish thousand feet, so today I ran over to aircraft spruce and bought an Aerox mask with a mic. I tried it on, and it fit pretty nicely but for some reason when I would exhale, some air would shoot out around my nose and blow into my eyes. Is this normal, or should I be getting a bigger mask?

The mask I got also has the Constant flow style connector. I don't really understand how to hook this up to the bottle or the Precise flight flow meter. Anyone have any pictures or visuals I could use for a setup. I looked online and could find nothing.

In case any ones wondering, I have a o2 sat meter.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

It would be better if you showed a picture of your setup. In most cases, you can cut off what ever is on the end of the mask hose and connect the hose to your tank quick disconnect or flow meter.

Air leaking when you exhale isn’t a problem. As long as you suck all the air out of the bag when you inhale, you are getting all the oxygen.

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I recently started flying in the mid teens with oxygen and so far I am a big fan to say the least. However I've come into a couple issues and I figured it would be better for me to figure some things out before trying it and having issues at 17 to 18 thousand feet.

I've been wearing cannulas lately and realized I was would get hypoxic above 15ish thousand feet, so today I ran over to aircraft spruce and bought an Aerox mask with a mic. I tried it on, and it fit pretty nicely but for some reason when I would exhale, some air would shoot out around my nose and blow into my eyes. Is this normal, or should I be getting a bigger mask?

The mask I got also has the Constant flow style connector. I don't really understand how to hook this up to the bottle or the Precise flight flow meter. Anyone have any pictures or visuals I could use for a setup. I looked online and could find nothing.

In case any ones wondering, I have a o2 sat meter.

 

 

Contact these folks - they do this every day. https://www.aviationoxygen.com/

[jlunseth]

Air blowing out of the top of the mask is not a big deal. They are constant flow masks, there is always positive O2 flow coming in, the system does not rely on a perfect mask seal. The problem, though, is fogging if you wear glasses and I don't really know what to tell you because getting a perfect fit in a pre-molded mask is not simple. Physicians use paper tape to tape the top of the mask to their face during surgery, something I have learned during COVID. You could try that if you are getting fogging.

I am wondering why you are getting a poor result from the cannula though. I have a miked mask and use it when I need to (above 18k), but I find it very inconvenient although the air is more moist and the oxygenation is better. I have two thoughts on the cannula. FIrst, do you have the pouch type of cannula where the seller advertises that you can use a lower O2 flow? That does not work for me at all. The easiest thing is to just crank up the O2 flow on the cannula.

[M20F]

Why do you think you are getting hypoxic?  

[Niko182]

5 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Air blowing out of the top of the mask is not a big deal. They are constant flow masks, there is always positive O2 flow coming in, the system does not rely on a perfect mask seal. The problem, though, is fogging if you wear glasses and I don't really know what to tell you because getting a perfect fit in a pre-molded mask is not simple. Physicians use paper tape to tape the top of the mask to their face during surgery, something I have learned during COVID. You could try that if you are getting fogging.

I am wondering why you are getting a poor result from the cannula though. I have a miked mask and use it when I need to (above 18k), but I find it very inconvenient although the air is more moist and the oxygenation is better. I have two thoughts on the cannula. FIrst, do you have the pouch type of cannula where the seller advertises that you can use a lower O2 flow? That does not work for me at all. The easiest thing is to just crank up the O2 flow on the cannula.

 

4 hours ago, M20F said:

Why do you think you are getting hypoxic?  

When I was at 15 thousand feet, my hands and feet starting getting pins and needles and I couldn't get rid of it. after about 5 to 10 minutes started realizing I was forgetting things such as frequencies and leaving the heating on. I descended to 10k after that and the problem went away.

Could that be CO poisoning from the heater? I don't usually like using the heater because of the smell it gives off.

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

 

When I was at 15 thousand feet, my hands and feet starting getting pins and needles and I couldn't get rid of it. after about 5 to 10 minutes started realizing I was forgetting things such as frequencies and leaving the heating on. I descended to 10k after that and the problem went away.

Could that be CO poisoning from the heater? I don't usually like using the heater because of the smell it gives off.

What kind of cannula were you using?   The cannula should be basically matched to the system.   If you don't have a pulse-demand system, it should be an oximyzer-style with either a pendant or mustache-style reservoir.   If you use a plain, medical-style cannula with a continuous-flow system you may get a lot less O2.

 

[Niko182]

Just now, EricJ said:

What kind of cannula were you using?   The cannula should be basically matched to the system.   If you don't have a pulse-demand system, it should be an oximyzer-style with either a pendant or mustache-style reservoir.   If you use a plain, medical-style cannula with a continuous-flow system you may get a lot less O2.

 

I bought 3 Nelson/precise flight Oy Cannulas with Flow controllers.

[Niko182]

Just now, smwash02 said:

@Niko182 Do you have a pulse oximeter? That data would be huge here to help better understand what's going on. I couldn't imagine flying above 12.5 without one.

Related to CO -- Discussed in another thread recently were the false readings from the pulse oximeter that can be given from CO poisoning. You may show saturated, but you actually aren't. A Sensorcon or other CO monitor can help you with that. I picked up mine on Amazon.

Knowing your CO PPM and O2% it should be easy to confirm what's going on, but if lowering your altitude resolved your symptoms, you were hypoxic. Perhaps breathing too shallowly, too low O2 flow, or breathing through your mouth. 

I do have a pulse oxymeter, however it doesn't do a very good job reading. I will get times where It reads in the high 60s, and I am completely coherent, and then I'll try again and it read to 95%. it just doesn't ever seem to be consistent.

[neilpilot]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

I do have a pulse oxymeter, however it doesn't do a very good job reading. I will get times where It reads in the high 60s, and I am completely coherent, and then I'll try again and it read to 95%. it just doesn't ever seem to be consistent.

Consider either buying another oxymeter (they can be had for ~$20), or borrowing one from a friend.  Unless you sometimes wear nail polish , I suspect yours needs to be replaced.  Of course, I'm assuming the battery isn't the issue.

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I bought 3 Nelson/precise flight Oy Cannulas with Flow controllers.

Precise Flight sells both styles.   This kind?

https://www.preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/product/oxymizer-cannula-flow-meters/

[Niko182]

Just now, EricJ said:

Precise Flight sells both styles.   This kind?

https://www.preciseflight.com/general-aviation/shop/product/oxymizer-cannula-flow-meters/

Yes. I typed oxy wrong. Not my brightest times.

[smwash02]

6 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I do have a pulse oxymeter, however it doesn't do a very good job reading. I will get times where It reads in the high 60s, and I am completely coherent, and then I'll try again and it read to 95%. it just doesn't ever seem to be consistent.

I keep two because they're so cheap now to crosscheck. If it's bright out I find that I have to put my hand in the footwell to make sure I get a good reading -- might be something to try along side a second one to compare with.

Make sure it has the little pulse graphic at the bottom, which helps me know if it's getting a good read. I attached a photo of what I mean by this.

[Niko182]

Just now, smwash02 said:

I keep two because they're so cheap now to crosscheck. If it's bright out I find that I have to put my hand in the footwell to make sure I get a good reading -- might be something to try along side a second one to compare with.

Make sure it has the little pulse graphic at the bottom, which helps me know if it's getting a good read. I attached a photo of what I mean by this.

Ill go out and buy a second one.

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

Yes. I typed oxy wrong. Not my brightest times.

That should be good for a continuous-flow system assuming the flow rate was okay.   The pulse oximeter is a good way to know for certain whether you're hypoxic or not, and is generally useful to know for your self what your own demand requirements are to be able to better adjust the flow rate for yourself.   I've had times, too, when I've felt fine but the pulse-ox has shown low numbers, and I think it is partly just dependent on whatever is going on with your own physiology that particular day.   For me, though, if the numbers get too low even if I'm feeling okay I just turn the flow rate up a bit.  It's already been mentioned that a CO issue can cause problems as well, and a good CO detector like a Sensorcom is a good tool for eliminating that as a problem.

 

[M20F]

33 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

 

When I was at 15 thousand feet, my hands and feet starting getting pins and needles and I couldn't get rid of it. after about 5 to 10 minutes started realizing I was forgetting things such as frequencies and leaving the heating on. I descended to 10k after that and the problem went away.

Could that be CO poisoning from the heater? I don't usually like using the heater because of the smell it gives off.

You said you had an O2 sensor, what did it read?  

[Niko182]

Just now, M20F said:

You said you had an O2 sensor, what did it read?  

From what I remember, it wouldnt read when I was trying it.

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, M20F said:

Why do you think you are getting hypoxic?  

Did you read his post?

14 hours ago, Niko182 said:

I've been wearing cannulas lately and realized I was would get hypoxic above 15ish thousand feet,

It's obvious he's suffering from hypoxia! 

Seriously though, get a good CO monitor and a good pulse oximeter.  Remember, CO poisoning will give you artificially high readings on the oximeter.  Double danger!

[LANCECASPER]

I'm having one of these installed as we speak. It will display Oxygen Saturation and will alert Carbon Monoxide on the JPI-930 I'm also having installed. It will also display on some Garmin glass panels.

 

https://www.guardianavionics.com/aero-455-panel-pulse-oximeter-co-detector-tso-certified-aircraft

[jlunseth]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

 

When I was at 15 thousand feet, my hands and feet starting getting pins and needles and I couldn't get rid of it. after about 5 to 10 minutes started realizing I was forgetting things such as frequencies and leaving the heating on. I descended to 10k after that and the problem went away.

Could that be CO poisoning from the heater? I don't usually like using the heater because of the smell it gives off.

Everyone’s hypoxia symptoms will be different. Forgetting things is a symptom. Tingling is also, but at least in my experience they are  symptoms of fairly deep hypoxia. There are other things you will notice earlier, at least if you have some familiarity with hypoxia. I am not a medical professional, nor a dive professional, but I have done some extensive dive training and got to experience ranges of hypoxia first hand, so take what I say for what its worth. The first symptom I notice in the aircraft is that my speech on the radio becomes more halting, with some “uhs” in it. That tells me I need to crank the O2 up.

CO poisoning is a form of hypoxia called anemic hypoxia. It means there is enough O2 in the air you are breathing, but your blood is not able to carry it. The symptoms are not going to be any different from hypoxic hypoxia, which is the term for being at altitude and there not being enough O2 in the air entering your lungs, with the possible exception that if the CO concentration is high enough the symptoms might come on faster and become a deeper hypoxia. It is worth getting a CO warning system. There are several available and if you do a search on the site I am sure you will come up with lots of recommendations (Sensorcon comes to mind). Technically, anemic hypoxia is not poisoning, that would be yet another type (histotoxic hypoxia). Pilots learn types of hypoxia in commercial ground school, as I recall it is a question or two on the commercial written.

I may be wrong, but it just sounds like you were at 15k with little or no O2 flow. People vary in their ability to use O2 also, so it is possible that is an issue.

You were smart to descend, very good decision. If the heater was still going and the symptoms resolved, it is more likely that the altitude was the cause - hypoxic hypoxia.

[M20F]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

From what I remember, it wouldnt read when I was trying it.

I would see a doctor and barring any issues try again with a safety pilot and an O2 sensor.  

[carusoam]

Summary...

1) Definitely experienced O2 shortage...

2) Everyone has different hypoxia symptoms...

3) I get a blurred vision, with my deep inhales.... 

4) Experimenting with O2 delivery above 12.5k’ is not a good idea... this can be figured out with a plan B at much lower altitudes...

5) Tingly feelings and falling asleep are not too far apart...

6) Trouble with logic is also close by... it is hard to recognize the O2 problem or know it’s solution while it is occurring...

7) If this were CO poisoning... going lower wouldn’t have solved the problem... CO doesn’t leave the blood system for many hours...

8) Consider getting some training, some back-up devices, bring an MSer with O₂ experience along...

9) Experimenting this way, brings you too close to napping at altitude...

10) Kind of a wake up call from your friends at MS...  

After all that... I’m interested in your cruise details you get up there...

I don’t typically use O₂ so I haven’t gone that high at all...  time for a change here too... 

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

21 hours ago, Niko182 said:

 

When I was at 15 thousand feet, my hands and feet starting getting pins and needles and I couldn't get rid of it. after about 5 to 10 minutes started realizing I was forgetting things such as frequencies and leaving the heating on. I descended to 10k after that and the problem went away.

Could that be CO poisoning from the heater? I don't usually like using the heater because of the smell it gives off.

Review your medical history you with your physician and try to figure out why getting the symptoms that you are.   As mentioned many times here  symptoms of hypoxia are different in each person.   Decreased alertness,  increased sense of well-being,  failure to recognize cognitive errors,  or even no symptoms at all just before you pass out  can describe some of the symptoms,  and there are many other variations not mentioned.   Numbness and tingling  can be symptoms of hypoxia,  but they are also well-known symptoms of  decreased CO2 and applied it how alkalemia.   This can be caused  by breathing too fast and blowing off CO2 creating an alkaline blood pH.   On the ground  this can be corrected by holding your breath  or breathing into a bag,  which would increase blood CO2 levels.

 Your pulmonary status,  age,  altitude where you are living,  hemoglobin and hematocrit levels,  and medical history all will affect the outcome and the symptoms at various altitudes when flying.  You should  do a bit of experimenting with your physician on the ground,  with exercise,  and with oxygen supplementation.     Use of a carbon monoxide  in the cockpit would be helpful to rule out a CO problem.   Oxygen  supplementation at the time of symptoms well fine would be helpful to rule out  degrees of hypoxia.   Also remember that  pulse oximetry will show a normal oxygen saturation in the face of carbon monoxide poisoning.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

22 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

 

This will teach me not to proof-read something created by Dragon didtation:

The corrected version is:

Review your medical history with your physician and try to figure out why you are getting the symptoms that you are.   As mentioned, many times the  symptoms of hypoxia are different in each person.   Decreased alertness,  increased sense of well-being,  failure to recognize cognitive errors,  or even no symptoms at all just before you pass out  can describe some of the symptoms,  and there are many other variations not mentioned.   Numbness and tingling  can be symptoms of hypoxia,  but they are also well-known symptoms of  decreased CO2 alkalemia.   This can be caused  by breathing too fast and blowing off CO2 creating an alkaline blood pH.   On the ground  this can be corrected by holding your breath  or breathing into a bag,  which would increase blood CO2 levels.

Your pulmonary status,  age,  altitude where you are living,  hemoglobin and hematocrit levels,  and medical history all will affect the outcome and the symptoms at various altitudes when flying.  You should  do a bit of experimenting with your physician on the ground,  with exercise,  with and without oxygen supplementation.     Use of a carbon monoxide  detector in the cockpit would be helpful to rule out a carbon monoxide  problem.   Oxygen  supplementation at the time of symptoms will be helpful to rule out  degrees of hypoxia.   Also remember that  pulse oximetry will show a normal oxygen saturation in the face of carbon monoxide poisoning.

John Breda

See corrections above.

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

The corrected version is:

Review your medical history with your physician and try to figure out why you are getting the symptoms that you are.   As mentioned, many times the  symptoms of hypoxia are different in each person.   Decreased alertness,  increased sense of well-being,  failure to recognize cognitive errors,  or even no symptoms at all just before you pass out  can describe some of the symptoms,  and there are many other variations not mentioned.   Numbness and tingling  can be symptoms of hypoxia,  but they are also well-known symptoms of  decreased CO2 alkalemia.   This can be caused  by breathing too fast and blowing off CO2 creating an alkaline blood pH.   On the ground  this can be corrected by holding your breath  or breathing into a bag,  which would increase blood CO2 levels.

Your pulmonary status,  age,  altitude where you are living,  hemoglobin and hematocrit levels,  and medical history all will affect the outcome and the symptoms at various altitudes when flying.  You should  do a bit of experimenting with your physician on the ground,  with exercise,  with and without oxygen supplementation.     Use of a carbon monoxide  detector in the cockpit would be helpful to rule out a carbon monoxide  problem.   Oxygen  supplementation at the time of symptoms will be helpful to rule out  degrees of hypoxia.   Also remember that  pulse oximetry will show a normal oxygen saturation in the face of carbon monoxide poisoning.

John Breda