Not the worst news ever, but close

[DonMuncy]

Certainly not the worst news in the world, but probably in the top 10; I got the word today that I am no longer insurable in a retractable gear plane due to being alive for 82 years.

It appears that I have less than 30 days left of being a Mooney pilot. 

I know many of you will immediately think of a dozen ways to avoid this, but I have had the best Mooney insurance guy, Parker, working on it, and it appears there is no real way around it. I could get a liability only policy, but I am not quite rich enough to risk absorbing the loss of my 231. 

As much as I hate it, I have to consider the possibility of going to a C182.

I think I am not really looking for advice, just commiseration.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Don's predicament inspired me to write my post in the forum about pilot age and careful strategy to stay insurable.

Even though Don's most recent flight review has my signature in it and I fly with him multiple times per year, we are having quite a challenge.

...and just as we have some wonderful Fall flying weather coming to Dallas this week...

[Nick Pilotte]

That really sucks Don.  I’ve got a friend who is 84 and has a newer A36, I’ve been afraid to ask him about it lately too.  Would a (gasp) Cirrus be any different than a 182?  They seem to have performance more online with the Mooney with a few additional features like 2 doors, glass cockpits, and even a fancy red handle.  

[Davidv]

That's really too bad for Don.  It's odd to me that no one will do it at any price.  I'm not an expert, but isn't insurance all about odds?  If you're talking about a plane that isn't extremely expensive, someone with little to no loss history in many years of flying (I don't know Don's background but I'm assuming he's had no major losses) has to be good odds for them if they raise the premium enough.

[Parker_Woodruff]

5 minutes ago, Davidv said:

That's really too bad for Don.  It's odd to me that no one will do it at any price.  I'm not an expert, but isn't insurance all about odds?  If you're talking about a plane that isn't extremely expensive, someone with little to no loss history in many years of flying (I don't know Don's background but I'm assuming he's had no major losses) has to be good odds for them if they raise the premium enough.

If you get too far off the beaten path of insurance rates, you can end up with a market conduct review from your state insurance regulator.  Though the filings are generally pretty broad, in many cases there are filed rates that carriers have to stay within.  Also, keep in mind a lot of this is well-meaning underwriters who work for publicly traded companies and don't want to end up in hot water if there was ever a loss on an outlier risk, no matter how great the pilot.

Enough about that though - we will certainly enjoy Don's company around here whether he is flying a Mooney, Piper, or Cessna.

[Missile=Awesome]

25 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Certainly not the worst news in the world, but probably in the top 10; I got the word today that I am no longer insurable in a retractable gear plane due to being alive for 82 years.

It appears that I have less than 30 days left of being a Mooney pilot. 

I know many of you will immediately think of a dozen ways to avoid this, but I have had the best Mooney insurance guy, Parker, working on it, and it appears there is no real way around it. I could get a liability only policy, but I am not quite rich enough to risk absorbing the loss of my 231. 

As much as I hate it, I have to consider the possibility of going to a C182.

I think I am not really looking for advice, just commiseration.

So sorry to hear this Don.  You look great for any age and I would be happy to hang up my Mooney spurs at a decade below you and call it “a good ride”.  My first flights were in a turbo Skylane as a single digit right seater and I could not of been happier (at the time).  I wish you well in whatever chapter is “next” sir.

[smwash02]

Don, that's a rough deal and I'm really sorry to hear it. I hope you don't hang up the wings and find yourself something new and fun to fly around and continue hosting the fly in up there.

  

11 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Enough about that though - we will certainly enjoy Don's company around here whether he is flying a Mooney, Piper, or Cessna.

Just not that other C company?

 

[aviatoreb]

Don, this sounds like a disappointment.  You became chronically 82.  Looking on the bright side, which is something to celebrate to be 82 in good enough health to please your flight surgeon if not your insurance company.  I admire and aspire to be like you Don in (almost) 30 years.  Knock on wood and wish us all good luck to enjoy such good fortune.

So what beautiful aircraft will brighten your hangar next.  A Mooney M20D fixed gear?

I had a Diamond DA40 once which is a fun to fly airplane.

There's a lot to say for low and slow - a carbon cub crafter.

How about a helicopter!

 

[Nick Pilotte]

Why’s it got to be slow?  RV8?  Extra 300?

[Danb]

That bites Don Parker’s article was numbing, the pisser is you’ve paid insurance for say 50 years at $2000 a year amount doesn’t matter that’s 100 g’s assuming no payouts by the insurance company over the years. Pilot loses again, hopefully I’ll never have a claim either.

[Unit74]

You are betting you will crash, they’re betting you won’t.  The risk/reward is not on their side anymore. 
 

Sell it and buy an ultra lite or gyro.  You might fall in love all over again. I used to love riding street bikes and raced dirt bikes. But two too many bad crashes changed my outlook, so now I get my kicks flying as if it’s safer. Statistically it is I suppose. Point being, change your trajectory and keep enjoying life.

 

if that’s not acceptable, fly uninsured and take your chances. Hate to say it, but the elephant in the room is that your flying days really are at the end of the road no matter how you approach it be it insurance or age.  At least with an ultra, you can still have loads of fun and an incident generally ends in minimal liabilities if you survive.  Otherwise, it’s a moot point I suppose for someone to argue over an old couch and a bit of money in the bank post mortem. 

[EricJ]

First, very sorry to hear.   We're all headed in that direction one way or other.

A 182 wouldn't be a bad choice, or an RV-xA.   There are lots of cool airplanes that'll still be usable.    There seem to be a lot of older guys in this area flying experimentals.

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by EricJ

[kortopates]

Really sorry to hear this Don. I personally would have thought getting liability would be the issue - not hull.

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I could get a liability only policy, but I am not quite rich enough to risk absorbing the loss of my 231. 

I would be thrilled just to get liability. I don't care about losing my toy other than it likely means the end of my flying. But as long as my assets are protected with liability insurance I'd be okay with that. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by kortopates

[carusoam]

There has got to be a way...

And, I hope it presents itself soon...

Flying Octogenarians are not extinct... I would think their numbers are increasing... If not for the insurance...
 

Keep both eyes open... 

Train a grand child to fly...  

Borrow a grand child if you need to...

Wonder how Bennett handled this particular situation...  everyone is different... Bennett liked to write and shared some insights...

 

So... consider this list part of a joint commiseration.... not intended to be any type of advice...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

Wishing you and Parker success with positive discovery for you.

 

[Rusty Pilot]

Sorry to hear this.  Some of the best and safest pilots I have flown with have been older.  Have you been able to check rates for a 182?  I used to fly a 1980 182RG, nice plane, but I always wanted a Mooney and finally got mine two years ago.  Best of luck!

[Raptor05121]

Sorry to hear.

[Hank]

Sorry to hear this, Don. But like Anthony said, try asking other UFOs (my goal is to become one myself). Maybe they have a website or something. Do a search for United Flying Octogenarians.

Hoping for the best for you and Parker!

[steingar]

Don, is that uninsurable in any retractable, or in your retractable?  Let's say you stepped down to a vintage short body Mooney.  Now the loss isn't so bad, so maybe the insurance company relents, or you go liability only because you're flying a ship that's 30 AMUs instead of a 130.  Just spitballing.  And congrats.  Very few of members my family made it to 82 being unable to do much more than drool.

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, Nick Pilotte said:

Why’s it got to be slow?  RV8?  Extra 300?

Me thinks a tail dragger would be no easier to ensure if not harder...  

I wonder if insurers make a significant differentiation between an RV8 vs an RV8A?

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

Really sorry to hear this Don. I personally would have thought getting liability would be the issue - not hull.

I would be thrilled just to get liability. I don't care about losing my toy other than it likely means the end of my flying. But as long as my assets are protected with liability insurance I'd be okay with that. 

My thoughts as well. The real exposure is in the liability.   It'd be interesting to see the age stats on gear up landings.  Perhaps they are telling.

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

My thoughts as well. The real exposure is in the liability.   It'd be interesting to see the age stats on gear up landings.  Perhaps they are telling.

In the recent Consumer Aviation video, featuring some reported prominent national insurance brokers, Marci from Avemco stated she has seen no data reflecting older pilots are experiencing more gear ups.

Also stated in the video, there is no data to support higher claims of any sort in any area.

My opinion, these changes to the general aviation insurance industry are not driven by increased claims.

[jlunseth]

Ouch! So sorry. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

Don, while that prospect is scary, the truth of the matter is, for those with net worths over a million dollars, maybe significantly over, the risk has been there for many years.  The airplane hull value is minuscule in relation to net worth.  As Paul said, I think you should consider risking the airplane value and loading up on whatever the highest value liability insurance you can get, and enjoy flying the Mooney as long as you feel comfortable and proficient, no matter your age.  That's what I'm going to do when the time arrives.

Did you try Avemco?  They are a direct insurer.  More expensive, but maybe you are insurable with them.

 

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Don, while that prospect is scary, the truth of the matter is, for those with net worths over a million dollars, maybe significantly over, the risk has been there for many years.  The airplane hull value is minuscule in relation to net worth.  Aa Paul said, I think you should consider risking the airplane value and loading up on whatever the highest value liability insurance you can get, and enjoy flying the Mooney as long as you feel comfortable and proficient, no matter your age.  That's what I'm going to do when the time arrives.

Did you try Avemco?  They are a direct insurer.  More expensive, but maybe you are insurable with them.

 

Excellent Don.............however, from a humorous standpoint only, and not wising to diminish Don's situation..................please do not forget, Mr. Muncy is held in high esteem as MS CB Club president [elected by example of course].

Seriously though............as much as Don enjoys his beautiful Mooney, I fully agree with you and I do sincerely hope Don will continue to enjoy one of his life's passions for as long as possible.  Life is very short [even shorter as we all progress.................and has been previously mentioned, no one gets out alive and you can't take it with you.........money or a Mooney].  Go Don Muncy!  We are all pulling for you with this!!