Seeking the Sublime: What to upgrade?

[chriscalandro]

No, YOUR opinions are wrong. 
 

What a ridiculous argument - Chris doesn’t agree with me so he’s wrong. 
 

Look at the Garmin installations and tell me that isn’t garbage and looks like reliability at its finest. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by chriscalandro

[ChrisV]

There are 2 Chris's here.  And I am the wrong one.  

[gsxrpilot]

Public Service Announcement...

[LANCECASPER]

7 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

No, YOUR opinions are wrong. 
 

What a ridiculous argument - Chris doesn’t agree with me so he’s wrong. 
 

Look at the Garmin installations and tell me that isn’t garbage and looks like reliability at its finest. 

That isn’t garbage and looks like reliability at its finest, and I don’t even own one. Of course neither do you, so it would be best to get the opinions of people who have paid for the installations and fly behind them, rather than you or me.

 

On the subject of airplane values, we’ve seen two highly upgraded E’s sell for over $110,000 in the past couple years so there’s nothing to argue about - four parties agreed - two willing buyers and two willing sellers. Closed, funded sales are fact, everything else is theory.

@TWinter and Bob Belleville owned and sold the beautiful E’s

[ArtVandelay]

also, the addition of AP for my Dynon is estimated at under 5k. 
 
so again how’s it working out?  Compared to the other options, excellent. Pretty sure I backed the right horse on this one. 

Until it’s approved, it’s vaporware. So compared to Garmin...poor.
Dynon AP has no auto trim...
The cost of its glass panel seems to be on par with G3X.
I haven’t seen a Dynon installation so just have to wait to compare to Garmin.
I’m glad to see Dynon is trying....but too many times we’ve heard promises:
DFC90
Trio
Trutrak
Dynon
...

[chriscalandro]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Until it’s approved, it’s vaporware. So compared to Garmin...poor.
Dynon AP has no auto trim...
The cost of its glass panel seems to be on par with G3X.
I haven’t seen a Dynon installation so just have to wait to compare to Garmin.
I’m glad to see Dynon is trying....but too many times we’ve heard promises:
DFC90
Trio
Trutrak
Dynon
...

Here you go. Total cost 24k. Dual displays, engine monitoring, remote transponder, adsb in. 
 

 

[Missile=Awesome]

Laughing AT NOT WITH the D.B. Of the thread.

What a Maroon.

[chriscalandro]

30 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

I don't ever remember sending you personal petty insults because you have a different opinion than I do.

 

That's a fools game.

Edited September 30, 2020 by chriscalandro

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Until it’s approved, it’s vaporware. So compared to Garmin...poor.
Dynon AP has no auto trim...
The cost of its glass panel seems to be on par with G3X.
I haven’t seen a Dynon installation so just have to wait to compare to Garmin.
I’m glad to see Dynon is trying....but too many times we’ve heard promises:
DFC90
Trio
Trutrak
Dynon
...

This is a well thought out and rational response.  Noted.

 

For my airplane, currently none of them are approved. So I cant factor that into my reasoning.  Only what I've seen and what I've been told.

Because like you, (and unlike some others) I am capable of complex reasoning and thought.

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

This is a well thought out and rational response.  Noted.

Because like you, (and unlike some others) I am capable of complex reasoning and thought.

It’s not what you say about yourself...

Its what other people say about you...

You don’t get credit for saying you are capable of complex reasoning and thought...

Somebody has to say this about you... for it to matter.

You are capable of reasoning and thought... you just neglect to do so on some days...

Leaving a trail of comments that are just wreckage With your name attached to it...

One day... I hope to see you join the MS community...
 

Mostly because I had a bet with another MSer... I said you would find value in being here and behave accordingly...

He said you wouldn’t stick around...

Oddly the bet hasn’t been cancelled either direction...
 

You’re still here, still not part of the community, and still getting credit for most times the ignore user feature gets mentioned...
 

No need to change... 
If you were to change, it would be better for you... and better for the community...

Win / Win....

It would be better for me too... I’d win that bet that has been going on for about 2.5 years or so...  
 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[EchoMax]

Wow!  Thanks for all of the excellent input.

OK, I paid a pretty penny for Gypsy Rose, so that may give you the false impression that I am profligate.  Not at all true.  I may even have the qualifications necessary to join the Cheap Bastards Club.  I was strongly influenced by the Frugal Gourmet, I drove the same 1991 Honda Accord for 22 years, used 40-watt lightbulbs in my student apartment to save on the electric bill, etc. But at the same time, as my wife reminds me, “We are not rich enough to buy cheap stuff,” meaning poor quality crap that soon breaks and ends up costing more in the long run after you repair or replace it.

For me, selective indulgence helps me adhere to a thrifty lifestyle.  If not for that, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, because private plane ownership can rarely be justified in purely economic terms.

Bob already did the Aspen PFD 1000 to MAX upgrade.  The backup vacuum pump has already been removed.  I don’t want to remove the remaining vacuum system because it powers the step, and the electric step conversion would not be cost-effective.  This may be why Bob didn’t remove the vacuum entirely.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I like having a vacuum-powered AI to back up the electric one.  My home airport (KBLF) is in the mountains.  A friend recently experienced a nerve-wracking total electrical failure in IMC.  For newer aircraft that have two completely separate and redundent electrical systems, all-electric is ok, but I don’t like the idea of my life depending on the backup battery in a GI-275.  Ever find that your Iphone or Ipad is unexpectedly out of juice?

As far as swapping the JPI 930 for a 900 and relocating, that train has already left the station.

Apparently there is no compelling need (or availability, for that matter) to upgrade the autopilot at this time.

Add a GTN 650 to the existing 750?  Surely you’re joking!

What is the advantage of the PMA 450B over the PMA 8000?

[tmo]

So, basically, you have an extra $25000 for gas and $2500 for the oil changes to burn it all. Have fun!

[M20F-1968]

On 9/28/2020 at 12:42 AM, chriscalandro said:

You’re into it well over it’s value. I know it’s a nice airplane but NO E MODEL is worth 6 figures. 
 

 

I too must disagree and support Carusoam's reply.  My 1968 F has been formally appraised twice professionally at over 2X what Bob's E sold for.

The upgraded Vintage Mooneys offer a combination of efficiency, speed, simplicity with no difference avionic capability when upgraded.

John Breda

[ArtVandelay]

Wow!  Thanks for all of the excellent input.
OK, I paid a pretty penny for Gypsy Rose, so that may give you the false impression that I am profligate.  Not at all true.  I may even have the qualifications necessary to join the Cheap Bastards Club.  I was strongly influenced by the Frugal Gourmet, I drove the same 1991 Honda Accord for 22 years, used 40-watt lightbulbs in my student apartment to save on the electric bill, etc. But at the same time, as my wife reminds me, “We are not rich enough to buy cheap stuff,” meaning poor quality crap that soon breaks and ends up costing more in the long run after you repair or replace it.
For me, selective indulgence helps me adhere to a thrifty lifestyle.  If not for that, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, because private plane ownership can rarely be justified in purely economic terms.
As far as swapping the JPI 930 for a 900 and relocating, that train has already left the station.
Apparently there is no compelling need (or availability, for that matter) to upgrade the autopilot at this time.
Add a GTN 650 to the existing 750?  Surely you’re joking!
What is the advantage of the PMA 450B over the PMA 8000?

I agree, I am always surprised by those that say spending money on a plane (avionics, paint...) isn’t justified.
If it’s about justifying money expenses, you would never have bought a Mooney. It’s a luxury, you bought a Mooney because you wanted it. You pay the yearly expenses because you want to keep it. The only reason you need to upgrade your plane, is you want to.
If that’s what you want and it doesn’t put a financial hardship on the family budget... I say go for it. In the end you’ll get some of it back when you sell and you’ll get to enjoy it...that’s all the justification I would need. I’ll bet Bob never regretted it.
The 450B has Bluetooth capability (streaming to GoPro cameras, getting audio alerts from my iPad from GP or FF). It also has the stereo effect when listening to 2 coms makes it easier to monitor 2 channels.

[ArtVandelay]

I too must disagree and support Carusoam's reply.  My 1968 F has been formally appraised twice professionally at over 2X what Bob's E sold for.

The upgraded Vintage Mooneys offer a combination of efficiency, speed, simplicity with no difference avionic capability when upgraded.

John Breda

Being appraised and actually selling it is 2 different things. You’ll have to agree I think, the potential buyer pool will be much smaller.

As an indication of this, I’ve seen modified E/Fs that call themselves Js when listed for sale because it has all the J mods. There currently is a nice F listed on MS that compares itself to a 201.

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, EchoMax said:

 

What is the advantage of the PMA 450B over the PMA 8000?

I thought the IntelliAudio was fluff, but the more I use it, the more I like it.  Having a built in USB port on the panel has been helpful for my wife's phone and my ipad.  I also like the LCD display.  Starting with the 450A, they included copilot as passenger option.  I have the 450, and it isn't a feature.  It keeps the copilot's music and BT from being interrupted by ATC.  I have to put the copilot on isolate if they want that, but that keeps them from hearing me.  

 

I'm sure there are other things, but those are the ones that come to mind.  No Gotta Haves but little things that make life easier.  

[rbridges]

58 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I agree, I am always surprised by those that say spending money on a plane (avionics, paint...) isn’t justified.
If it’s about justifying money expenses, you would never have bought a Mooney. It’s a luxury, you bought a Mooney because you wanted it. You pay the yearly expenses because you want to keep it. The only reason you need to upgrade your plane, is you want to.
If that’s what you want and it doesn’t put a financial hardship on the family budget... I say go for it. In the end you’ll get some of it back when you sell and you’ll get to enjoy it...that’s all the justification I would need. I’ll bet Bob never regretted it.
The 450B has Bluetooth capability (streaming to GoPro cameras, getting audio alerts from my iPad from GP or FF). It also has the stereo effect when listening to 2 coms makes it easier to monitor 2 channels.

I straddled that for a few years.  I recently came to the realization that I'm keeping my C for a while.  Until I lose my medical, hit the lottery or can't climb on a wing.  I've installed more money into my panel than I paid for the plane itself.  Poor financial decision, and that money will never be realized by me again, but I've gained capability and redundancy that makes me sleep better at night.  It's not the right choice for a lot of people, but I feel it was the right decision for me.  

[GeeBee]

If you start getting into financial justifications for personal airplanes either the airplane itself or the trinkets you hang upon it you will bee on a fool's errand. Like my boat I expense it to "mental health". I have yet to see a hearse with an armored truck behind it and my kids can make their own fortune like I did. Inheritances poison families.

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, EchoMax said:

Bob already did the Aspen PFD 1000 to MAX upgrade.  The backup vacuum pump has already been removed.  I don’t want to remove the remaining vacuum system because it powers the step, and the electric step conversion would not be cost-effective.  This may be why Bob didn’t remove the vacuum entirely.

Also, maybe it’s just me, but I like having a vacuum-powered AI to back up the electric one.  My home airport (KBLF) is in the mountains.  A friend recently experienced a nerve-wracking total electrical failure in IMC.  For newer aircraft that have two completely separate and redundent electrical systems, all-electric is ok, but I don’t like the idea of my life depending on the backup battery in a GI-275.  Ever find that your Iphone or Ipad is unexpectedly out of juice?

As far as swapping the JPI 930 for a 900 and relocating, that train has already left the station.

Apparently there is no compelling need (or availability, for that matter) to upgrade the autopilot at this time.

Add a GTN 650 to the existing 750?  Surely you’re joking!

What is the advantage of the PMA 450B over the PMA 8000?

Yep, I agree with all of this. I wouldn't touch anything (except the audio panel) and just fly it and enjoy it. @tmo said it. Put that money in the tank.

The only reason I mention the audio panel is that the 450B is a very cheap and easy upgrade. The advantages are not game changing, and most benefit the passengers rather than the pilot. But you can trade in the 8000 for good credit against the 450B. And you can do the install yourself in 5 minutes. It's good not to slip too far behind as technology advances, and this step is as cheap and easy as it gets. But if you chose to not touch a thing and just fly, I'm right there with you.

[tmo]

Wouldn't the PMA450B want an extra wire or two to show it's full capabilities above and beyond the 8000? That said, one might want it for the USB-C port alone...

Edited September 30, 2020 by tmo

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, tmo said:

Wouldn't the PMA450B want an extra wire or two to show it's full capabilities above and beyond the 8000? That said, one might want it for the USB-C port alone...

I don't think so. I might be missing something though. I upgraded from a GMA340 to PMA450A to PMA450B without any wiring at all. Just plug and play.

[ryoder]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:47 AM, DXB said:

Dump the vac and its AI.  Get a GI 275 as backup AI.  It can also provide a second nav head, HSI, and bunch of other stuff.  You can get rid of the old nav indicator on the bottom left.  Save the rest of your money for a GFC500 autopilot for when it's available, or another low cost modern autopilot option like TruTrak.  Or spend it all now on an STEC 3100 upgrade.

Yes. GI275 and then GFC500. 

[tmo]

OK, you made me go look - quoting from the PMA450B page at ps-engineering.com: NOTE: additional wiring to implement flightmate® is required when upgrading from either GARMIN* GMA340 or PMA8000 series audio panels.

Which is weird, because the flightmate page at ps-engineering.com says flighmate comes with the PMA8000G as well as the PMA450B.

BTW: flightmate® - Advanced Digital Audio Recording System found in the PMA8000G and PMA450B.

It is NOT just a replay of what you heard, quoting: This internal digital recording system allows the pilot to create custom audio alerts, create checklists, and acts as a continues loop recorder for primary radio receptions.

Edited September 30, 2020 by tmo

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, tmo said:

OK, you made me go look - quoting from the PMA450B page at ps-engineering.com: NOTE: additional wiring to implement flightmate® is required when upgrading from either GARMIN* GMA340 or PMA8000 series audio panels.

Which is weird, because the flightmate page at ps-engineering.com says flighmate comes with the PMA8000G as well as the PMA450B.

BTW: flightmate® - Advanced Digital Audio Recording System found in the PMA8000G and PMA450B.

I've never used that feature... maybe that is why 

[chriscalandro]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Being appraised and actually selling it is 2 different things. You’ll have to agree I think, the potential buyer pool will be much smaller.

As an indication of this, I’ve seen modified E/Fs that call themselves Js when listed for sale because it has all the J mods. There currently is a nice F listed on MS that compares itself to a 201.

That’s how you KNOW you’re asking too much. 
 

as for changing? Na I’m good. Maybe some of you will learn the skill of thinking objectively. Others will learn the skill of not posting needlessly on every thread in existence.